Just a little advice on using E85

[Road Games]

Some useful advice has come to light about this witches brew called E85 amongst other names .. I thought the discussion would fit in here for all to become educated about its benefits as i couldn't find a dedicated FUEL thread...

From wikipedia

Potential benefits of E85 are contested by some experts who point out that deriving gasoline from petroleum is a relatively inexpensive (i.e. more efficient) process even including the transportation of oil and gasoline long distances. Large-scale production of ethanol may be cost prohibitive; and may result in a net energy loss when taking into account all the energy required to make alcohol from starchy plants. Another drawback for E85 is that, in a liter-to-liter comparison, E85 has less power potential than conventional gasoline; about 12-25 percent less energy for transportation by volume. Other experts believe that, if the world was to mix as much alcohol into our automobiles as we do into our brains we might make progress on the global warming issue.

E85 is becoming increasingly common in the United States, mainly in the Midwest where corn is a major crop and is the primary source material for ethanol fuel production; however as yet, there are about 2335 filling stations selling E85 to the public in the US and until recently, only three in Canada
& Europe

E85 as a fuel is widely used in Sweden however most of it is imported from Italy and Brazil

It is also available across most of the Maxol chain in Ireland where it is made from whey, a byproduct of cheese manufacturing.
In Finland E85 is available from seven St1 chain locations in Helsinki. The Finnish E85 is manufactured from bio waste.

Fuel economy

Because ethanol contains less energy than gasoline, fuel economy is reduced for most 2002 and earlier American FFVs (flexible-fuel vehicles) that are currently on the road by about 30% (most after 2003 lose only 15-17%, or less) when operated on pure E85 (summer blend). Some of the newest American vehicles can lessen this reduction to only 5-15%, but as recently as 2007 the Environmental Protection Agency stated on its website that several of the most current American FFVs were still losing 25-30% fuel efficiency when running on E85.
Some Swedish engineered cars with engine management systems provide much better fuel economy on E85 than on gasoline; for example, the Saab Aero-X turbocharged concept car produces higher fuel economy and higher power on 100% ethanol (E100) than gasoline through using a higher compression ratio engine with advanced SAAB engine control computers.

Another car that has higher power on ethanol is the Koenigsegg CCXR, which on ethanol is the third most powerful production car with 1020 hp. This according to the manufacturer is due to the cooling properties of ethanol. Still, for almost all American-made FFVs, more E85 is typically needed to do the same work as can be achieved with a lesser volume of gasoline. This difference is sometimes offset by the lower cost of the E85 fuel, depending on E85's current price discount relative to the current price of gasoline. As described earlier, the best thing for drivers to do is to record fuel usage with both fuels and calculate cost/distance for them. Only by doing that, can the end-user economy of the two fuels be compared.

For example, an existing pre-2003 model year American-made FFV vehicle that normally achieves, say, 30 MPG on pure gasoline will typically achieve about 20 MPG, or slightly better, on E85 (summer blend.) When operated on E85 winter blend, which is actually E70 (70% ethanol, 30% gasoline), fuel economy will be higher than when operating on the summer blend. To achieve any short-term operational fuel cost savings, the price of E85 should therefore be 30% or more below the price of gasoline to equalize short term fuel costs for most older pre-2003 FFVs for both winter and summer blends of E85.
Life-cycle costs over the life of the FFV engine are theoretically lower for E85, as ethanol is a cooler and cleaner burning fuel than gasoline. Provided that one takes a longterm life-cycle operating cost view, a continuous price discount of only 20% to 25% below the cost of gasoline is probably about the break-even point in terms of vehicle life-cycle operating costs for operating most FFVs on E85 exclusively (for summer, spring/fall, and winter blends).

Fuel economy in fuel-injected non-FFVs operating on a mix of E85 and gasoline varies greatly depending on the engine and fuel mix.
For a 60:40 blend of gasoline to E85 (summer blend), a typical fuel economy reduction of around 23.7% resulted in one person's carefully executed experiment with a 1998 Chevrolet S10 pickup with a 2.2L 4-cylinder engine, relative to the fuel economy achieved on pure gasoline.

Similarly, for a 50:50 blend of gasoline to E85 (summer blend), a typical fuel economy reduction of around 25% resulted for the same vehicle. (Fuel economy performance numbers were measured on a fixed commute of approximately 110 miles roundtrip per day, on a predominantly freeway commute, running at a fixed speed (62 mph), with cruise control activated, air conditioning ON, at sea level, with flat terrain, traveling to/from Kennedy Space Center, FL.). It is important to note, however, that if the engine had been specifically tuned for consumption of ethanol (higher compression, different fuel-air mixture, etc.) the mileage would have been much better than the results above. The aforementioned fact leads some to believe that the "FFV" engine is more of an infant technology rather than fully mature.

The amount of reduction in mileage, therefore, is highly dependent upon the particulars of the vehicle design, exact composition of the ethanol-gasoline blend and state of engine tune (fuel air mixture and compression ratio primarily).



Use in flexible-fuel vehicles
E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel vehicles (FFV) are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. Fuel injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to inject approximately 40% more fuel.
Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used.

Comparisons to regular gasoline

E85 fuel dispenser at a regular gasoline station.E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93.
This allows it to be used in higher compression engines which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85.
Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual octane engine tests."

One complication is that use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E85. Use of E85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel.
Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiel ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. This corresponds to a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) for E85 than gasoline. Some vehicles can actually be converted to use E85 despite not being specifically built for it. Because of the lower heating value E85 has a cooler intake charge, which coupled with its high stability level from its high octane rating, has also been used as a "power adder" in turbocharged performance vehicles. These modifications have not only resulted in lower GHG emissions, but also resulted in 10-12% horsepower and torque increase at the wheels. Because of its low price (less than $2.00/gal in some places) and high availability in certain areas people have started to turn to using it in place of the high end race fuels that typically cost over $10.00/gal.

E85 consumes more fuel in flex fuel type vehicles when the vehicle uses the same compression for both E85 and gasoline because of its lower stoichiometric fuel ratio and lower heating value. European car maker Saab currently produces a flex fuel version of their 9-5 sedan which consumes the same amount of fuel whether running e85 or gasoline, though it is not available in the United States.
So in order to save money at the pump with current flex fuel vehicles available in the United States the price of E85 must be much lower than gasoline. Currently E85 is about 15% less expensive in most areas.
More than 20 fueling stations across the Midwest are selling E85 at the same price as gasoline.
E85 also gets less MPG, at least in flex fuel vehicles. In one test, a Chevy Tahoe flex-fuel vehicle averaged 18 MPG [U.S. gallons] for gasoline, and 13 MPG for E85, or 28% fewer MPG than gasoline. In that test, the cost of gas averaged $3.42, while the cost for E85 averaged $3.09, or 90% the cost of gasoline.
In another test, however, a fleet of Ford Tauruses averaged only about 6% fewer miles per gallon in the ethanol-based vehicles as compared to traditional, gas-powered Tauruses.

Some advice from ratter well done Mick

A post I did on another forum re E85

The detergent affect of E85 can cause some initial problems on cars that have allready been used for a period ie all our cars
It will clog up fuel filters and cause the car to lean out.
It is recommend that fuel filters get replaced pretty frequently for a while after changing to E85 useage

having E85 sitting around is not a great idea unless it is stored 100% air free as phase seperation can happen with any moisture entry with air.
The moisture in the air will condense in the tank/container. The heavier water molecules will fall to the bottom of the tank but at the same time attract ethanol molecules and remove them from the fuel, this will result in a corrosive layer of water and ethanol at the bottom of the tank/container and most engines will not run on this mixture if it happens in the tank of your car, simply draining (if possible) this mixture may cause other issues as the octane rating of the fuel will not be lower and may cause detonation problem in our engines.
E85 may not be consistant in it's octane rating either, not a great thing if we are pushing things to the max in the pursuit of more power, if we tune with a tank at a high octane and then the next tank fill is lower octane, we may end up with detonation issues. This will also be more likely for those that are mixing it themselves.
Some cars in europe are now E85 ready, but they get around issues by having heated injectors to help starting issues, they have fuel systems to cope with the corrosive affect of the fuel and the biggest thing the have is they use a flex fuel sensor to actually measure the ethanol content of the fuel being used and the ecu adjust the fuel and spark as required based on the ethanol content at the time.
Basically anyone starting to use E85 will need to replace their fuel filter quite often for several thousand klms after the change, you will also need to tune the car to flow approx 27-30% more fuel, in closed loop the ecu will trim to approx 25-30%, but it will not do it in open loop

Me...

Well i filled up at the servo stated in first post ..
$1.12L cost me $45 to fill from 1/4 empty ?

Just went to Caloundra and back this arvo 350km round trip... 10.3L/100kms ave speed 78km/hr.. car loved it .

No issues other than a very slight stumble at idle.. smells good and goes good , i saved over 30c over filling with Ultimate..

This aint the sucrogen 106 oct tried previously but it is cheaper than even 95 oct and i will be filling up with it again on Tues..

Me...

*Do not fill your XR6 with this stuff !!!*I have some investigating to do , but after the second fill and about 50kms this morning it developed a miss/flat spot and a whole bunch of gremlins never felt before..
Coincidentaly my TP sensor may have packed it in or my O2 sensor just decided to not work properly OR my cyl head temp switch has become faulty making the ecu shut down cylinders ??

Until i get to the bottom of it please do NOT follow my previous advice ...
I have flashed my car back to stock in case the knock sensors were massively retarding the timing , i will run this tank dry,change my fuel filter and load the tune again ...

And report my findings , i will also get onto Caltex's web site and find the specifics of this fuel which only has an oct' rating of 91' According to the staff at Worongary and the time of year produced...
Daz.

blueoval...

I use Eflex in my car. But my car is tuned for E85 blend. I have found it to feel more powerful than the United servo E85 fuel I get. Im setup to run a mix of 40% E85 and the rest in 98. I usually run the Caltex 98 on the same bowser. The car seems to love it.

Me...

Mine felt the same way last night mine isnt tuned for it and i wouldnt be game at the moment till i get to the bottom of the missfire ...

blueoval

Ah yes, well I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE TO RUN THIS FUEL WITHOUT THE CAR BEING CUSTOM TUNED FOR IT!!!!
Sorry to sound like I am shouting, but I thought I should get the point across before others think its fine to run in their cars.

Once you get to the bottom of the problem Daz, and you custom tune the car for that fuel, you'll fine the car will have more power definitely. Just feels more torquey and is willing to rev harder.

Me...
Yeah for sure , was waiting for it to become available locally.. question is though why is it only 91 oct ??

Previous blend was 106 oct on my other flash box....

Somebody recommended this E-flex would tip straight in for me .. well i tried it , unlike some others i dont mind admitting my mistakes and sharing them with my forum buddies incase they get bad advice as well ....

blueoval...

I know Caltex has a 91 with 10% ethanol blend added. I would not....repeat I WOULD NOT use that pump ever unless I had a lower tune for it. 95 and 98 also have a 10% blend of ethanol to it too. But this little amount of ethanol is considered 'ok' for regular vehicles. Of course, check with your manufacturers specifications before filling up your car with any pump claiming to have 10% ethanol blend to it.

The Eflex pump advertises its ethanol content of between 70-85% obviously to cover themselves for any bad batches of fuel. I hope you used this pump. As you know ethanol is thicker in substance than regular fuel so you need a bigger fuel pump, and bigger injectors as well as a tune to safely run this fuel. Due to its thicker substance though, you tend to use more to make the power required even though it is a 106 rating.

Mate, if you did run 91 with a 10% ethanol blend you probably just ran the lower grade unleaded, hence the reason you are pinging. Is that correct?

Me...

No mate she wasn,t pinging .. got Paul from Elite to take it for a burn and he was scratching his head as well ... i have run the car plenty times on E10 before when the bucks were low (std tune)... Now i have only been running ultimate depending on spark tables.. i was hoping to pick up some free HP but now the Caltex staff have explained the 70-85% blend is only 91 oct i wont be touching it again ..

I re-read your post and i think a combination of the fuel requirements and the knock sensors have killed my fun and my fans running constantly are because the cyl's may have hot spots from an overly lean burn situation.. thanks for your help mate, i'm off to fill up with 98 now ( 1/2 empty already) and see if it makes a difference straight away or i need to investigate further ..Daz

blueoval...

Depending on your injector size etc, that might be 'ok' but until you get it tuned properly you probably wont be getting the full benefits from the Eflex.

30% Eflex is a little lean for my car. I tend to chuck in 25-27litres of Eflex and the rest 98 when I fill up. Reflash the car, and drive away. I was told I could go leaner, but I'd rather not. The tune is setup to be 'ok' either way.

I reckon just run 98 with some octane booster for now until you get Paul to look at it. Get a jerry can, fill it up with Eflex and after Paul has run some diagnostics on it, put the Eflex in and tune it properly. I wouldnt want the car to get spasmotic issues with whats in there at this moment

CFOUR

Make sure if using e85 you have a compatible fuel filter. Stocko's clog like nobody's business

Also CAT600

Just to add to that, you must be careful what filter media you use with Ethanol as well.

Paper/Cellulose filters will swell and block when immersed in alcohol fuels where a stainless mesh screen will not. I have had personal experiance with this on a brand new Aeromotive 10 micron filter which blocked up and failed a brand new fuel pump..... I fitted a new pump and gauged the inlet/outlet of the filter and found a 50psi differential and let me tell you the pump didnt like 120psi!!!!

The factory filters must be able to tolerate a low level of ethanol (10%) as Ford/FPV advertise E10 as safe to use, but Simon from XFT proved that the factory filters will start to block up when exposed to E85 for more than a few weeks.

Be careful guys, might pay to source am E85 compatible filter like what Holden are using in their new models.

I am not saying that you can just throw E85 into anything and be fine hardware-wise (And some Nitrile rubbers and some alloys of steel will be affected) but my AU has run E85 since 2008 and I have never had to lay a spanner on the fuel system apart from the initial filter incompatibilities that I suffered.

Just check that your pumps, filter, injectors, fuel regulator and hoses are compatible, get a tune and you will be fine.
Daniel

Norpus
From the Caltex website regarding Bio Eflex
(fyi if you haven't read already)

Ethanol blends
All ethanol blends of 10% or less can be used in new and used petrol-powered vehicles that were built and sold in Australia since 1986. According to the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries' guide they can be used safely without compromising the engine or affecting the manufacturer's warranty.

Ethanol blends of up to 85%, or E-Flex, recently entered the market with the arrival of 'flex-fuel' vehicles in Australia. It is expected that the number of flex-fuel vehicles that will be available in Australia will increase in 2010 and further grow in the coming years. E-Flex (E85) is only suitable for these vehicles and other vehicles mechanically altered to use E-Flex (E85).

E10 (10% ethanol blend) E-Flex (up to 85% ethanol blend) E10 (10% ethanol blend)


E10 is produced by mixing 10% ethanol with regular unleaded petrol in compliance with the limit set by the Australian Government National Fuels Standards.

Caltex Bio E10 Unleaded is a unique blend of Caltex Unleaded 91 Octane with 10% sugar or grain based ethanol.


E-Flex (up to 85% ethanol blend)

E-Flex is an innovative fuel technology that contains up to 85% ethanol and blended with petrol. Cars can be specifically produced, and even modified to run on ethanol blend fuels as high as 85% ethanol. At present, there's an increasing range of new cars leaving the assembly lines that can take E-Flex. These are known as ‘flex-fuel’ vehicles and are currently sold in Australia by Saab and Holden by 2010.

Caltex Australia will offer Bio E-Flex in 30 metropolitan and regional Caltex Service Stations by 2010, increasing to 100 by 2011.


http://microsites.caltex.com.au/bio...iofuels.aspx#34

blueoval

I'd just like to state, I have never ever used E85 ONLY in my car. It has always been a diluted blend with 98. I also have larger injectors, hi flowing fuel pump and a custom tune to suit.

Yes there has been reports of some who has experienced fuel line damage and the like. But I have been running this blend for over a year now with no side effects (touch wood) yet....

That being said, I will investigate the fuel filter issue that CAT600 stated. That is news to me.

It's certainly not for everyone, but there is potential for good stuff if the car is setup correctly and tuned properly. It depends on if you can live with the higher fuel consumption and harder to find pumps out there. For me, a pump is 15mins drive away to/from home. Plus I can get Eflex for 95c a litre. The price has little bearing on if I use it or not, its the power I get from it that makes me use it.

There is certainly valid points posted above though.

bolagnaise

The only reason I say this is because I remember there was alot of debate over the ratio mix. From what I remember caltex said the ratio you said above. 70/30 in colder months but when guys did tests on them it was actually alot lower. I'm not saying this is correct or that I'm correct but I would be careful buying it. I myself haven't used eflex yet so this is purely based off what I've read from other guys. I actually want an e85 tune in mine and should have it by Friday so I'm all for it. As Dazzler351 found out you shouldn't run this stuff without the tune for it. My brother in Sydney told me his local has padlocks on the bowsers as people are trying to fill up with this stuff thinking it's cheap petrol. Lol.

Scotty85

Slightly off topic here, but Freedom fuels no longer provide the octane rating at their bowsers. They are now simply referred to as E10 Unleaded, Premium, & E10 Premium. Ive been using their base fuel as it was rated at 95ron up until this change. Trying to get an answer out of freedom directly on the matter has proved futile. If anyone has any information on whether the RON has changed please let me know, as I enjoyed paying far less for this fuel

Swordsman88

High scotty. Not wanting to continue too far off topic but i also noticed this a week ago at the freedom servo. They have decided to offer a base 91 ron non-ethanol blend so had to find room at their pumps. Previously it was 95(their base fuel), premium (96-97ron), 98 premium in terms of the labels. They were all E10 as they were running the whole 'green' image. Now they have gone for new labelling which has confused matters. I asked the service guy when i first noticed and he didnt know but the manager i asked last week on my second visit confirmed the base E10 fuel (green handle) is the same as before...i.e. 95Ron. Good news. The 'premium' fuel is old 96ron E10 (stupid octane rating....not sure what they are going there i tried it once and it did jack over the base stuff) and the former 98Ron fuel is no longer available. Presumable because no one who uses 98ron in the higher priced cars wants to touch ethanol....
The confusing bit is that they have changed the colours around a bit so the old blue handle that had 98 now has 96 and the yellow handle is 91 non ethanol.
Given the price of the E10 95 it is worth it in my view because its significantly cheaper than the 91...more than enough to offset the increased fuel usage of 4-6% (this is what i was told you might get with E10 gas). The BP down the road from the Freedom charge as much as 8cents/litre more for their 91Ron fuel and it has up to 5% ethanol according to BP's own documentation (you can put up to 5% without labeling it i believe). My EF loves the base freedom fuel its pretty much all i use. Good power and it definitely uses less than the 91E10 i got from shell once....that was horrid fuel burn. Well over 10% more than i was getting on regular 91.

Sorry for going off topic guys. Would have put this in a PM to scotty but thought others might like to know if they are also using Freedom fuel or are thinking about a good source of E10 fuels.....

I hope this bring some insite into the renewable fuels now available to us.. And please dont fill your car up if it isnt tuned for it i had to learn the hard way ...Daz.

[Road Games]

And one that Spoolman started ..

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11316060

[Iggypoppin']

Good read thanks dazzler.

[blueoval]

It's good information for those who don't know the in's and out's of it.

In a nutshell, use this fuel only after you have set your car up to run it and it has been custom tuned for it.

i.e. bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, steel fuel filter, custom tune MINIMUM.

pro's = better power & torque for boosted cars, cheaper to buy at the pump than alternative race fuels. Octane rating of about 106ron.

con's = harder to find at the pump, decreased fuel economy, costly to set car up to run it regularly.

[flappist]

The only non technical reservation I have is:

"Is it going to remain cheap once it becomes more mainsteam?"

I remember when Diesel was half and LPG was one tenth the price of petrol.
Diesel is now more expensive than petrol and LPG between 2/3 and 3/4 the price of petrol (in QLD).

One we have to import the ethanol because we cannot produce enough here things may change in a BIG way.

Regardelss of how much land we devote to ethanol crops we are the driest continent on earth and have some pretty long and widespread droughts.

It is somewhat ironic though that one of the primary drivers behind adopting ethanol is "global climate change" which is exactly what is needed to ensure that we have enough water to grow sufficient products to make the ethanol

[geckoGT]

Good read, thanks Daz. Must be the longest post ever though!

[aussie muscle]

if the world was to mix as much alcohol into our automobiles as we do into our brains we might make progress on the global warming issue

i thought it was to help reduce peak oil pressure, as the CO2 and other particulates were actually worse from e85. ie no benefit to GW.

My car is factory E10, so that's what i'll stick to (i'm pretty sure our fuel has been e10 for a fairly long time, they just never admitted it before).

Flappist, i get what you say about the costs changing in line with their volumes, and i agree its just a matter of time before e85 costs same or more than other forms of liquid fuel.