Will a FWD Falcon mean the death of the I6?

[AWD Chaser]

I don't know if this has been answered in any other threads, but if Ford made the Falcon FWD, would they be able to shoehorn the I6 in, or would it be a V6?

[MexicanBatman]

VeeSix

V6

Say goodbye the il6

[geckoGT]

Has been discussed before.

It is pretty clear that FWD would be the death of I6 as there are serious constraints in trying to fit a long I6 in a FWD package, it would have to go to a shorter V6 configuration.

[Ford_The_Win]

I thought it was a no-brainer? There's no way a FWD Falcon would be powered by the I6. It's just too long to fit.

If they do switch to FWD, I hope to god they drop the Falcon nameplate.

[Road_Warrior]

Even if the Falcon stays RWD, the I6 will more than likely go because they will have to use global powertrains which the I6 is not.

[321Go]

Yes Ford Falcon will use the I6 in FWD mode. The 2015 Falcon will be 2.3 metres wide.

[jpd80]

I love playing with people's heads, here's one for the Folks that say never.
20 years ago, Ford was working on the T-drive project that never continued..

Who recognises this engine from 20 years ago?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I love playing with people's heads, here's one for the Folks that say never.
20 years ago, Ford was working on the T-drive project that never continued..

Who recognises this engine from 20 years ago?

Might be a hint in the fact that it never continued.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Might be a hint in the fact that it never continued.

Just saying that people say it won't fit doesn't mean that it's true.

Here's another cool part, the centre drive take off for the 3.2 I-6:

[Halfmo Rocks]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

If they do switch to FWD, I hope to god they drop the Falcon nameplate.

agreed...don't badge engineer it to be a falcon when it isn't close to what a falcon was.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Just saying that people say it won't fit doesn't mean that it's true.

Here's another cool part, the centre drive take off for the 3.2 I-6:

Wow, interesting concept. So, how many of the EB Falcon 3.9/4.0 engines got used in that T-Drive project?

Servicing would have been a pain (6 spark plugs on the firewall side). Wonder what the steering rack / column would be like to get around the motor?

As for the OP question. That FWD i6 bridge will be crossed if it has to be. Pesonally, I don't think FWD Falcon will happen. GMHolden might want to continue RWD, but GM is saying otherwise. Note the VE potentially being orphaned on it's current Zeta platform with the other vehicles going to either alpha or FWD architectures.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I love playing with people's heads, here's one for the Folks that say never.
20 years ago, Ford was working on the T-drive project that never continued..

Who recognises this engine from 20 years ago?

http://www.drivingenthusiast.net/sec...ve/default.htm
There's one there with a transverse inline 8!!!
If they can fit that in a medium car...
I hope they retool it for east-west, with a new alloy block variant or something. could happen if they want to keep Geelong running, and want to keep some of the Falcon's USP intact...
If Daewoo can do a east-west s6 I'm sure For could if they wanted to...Would be hard to convince Dearborn though (but then it always is).

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by phillyc

As for the OP question. That FWD i6 bridge will be crossed if it has to be. Pesonally, I don't think FWD Falcon will happen. GMHolden might want to continue RWD, but GM is saying otherwise. Note the VE potentially being orphaned on it's current Zeta platform with the other vehicles going to either alpha or FWD architectures.

i Agree Phil, I would be getting all maudilin about the future of the RWD Falcon just yet,
the GM biased press get their sound bites from the US auto show every year and keep
pedaling the imminent demise of the Falcon....Ooooooooohhhhhhoooooo.

And then we hear Orion is still here for another 5-6 years and oh, FoA haven't decided yet....

Don't count the old bird out just yet.....

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

If they do switch to FWD, I hope to god they drop the Falcon nameplate.

why? for the small % of people on a small car forum? 90% of the buying population wouldn't be able to tell and wouldn't care.

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Even if the Falcon stays RWD, the I6 will more than likely go because they will have to use global powertrains which the I6 is not.

this is pretty much confirmed already. hard to see the I6 go beyond its current life cycle.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by jpd80

...
Who recognises this engine from 20 years ago?

Yes I do

If you hadn't already found those pics I was about to. Though it'll never happen. The I6 will pass and be replaced with a FWD/AWD V6 (east-west) driveline.

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

...
If they do switch to FWD, I hope to god they drop the Falcon nameplate.

Couldn't agree more. If it isn't I6 and RWD it isn't a Falcon.

To keep the Falcon nameplate on a rebadged Taurus/Mondeo or whatever would be disrespectful to the Falcon name and enough to turn me from Ford for life.

Are you listening Ford?

Do you care?

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yes I do

To keep the Falcon nameplate on a rebadged Taurus/Mondeo or whatever would be disrespectful to the Falcon name and enough to turn me from Ford for life.

Are you listening Ford?

Do you care?

Ford is an American multinational company. They will only care if the number of customers lost is more than the number gained, which would look improbable to me, as many dont know or care about the Falcon as its a fleet car. So in truth, I would say no they don't care.

The secret to any survival of a RWD Falcon IMHO, will pin on the success of the Caprice in Police service. If that takes off (looks promising) and the Commodore heads state side as a Chevy and this times gets a fair go, the pressure might be on Ford to keep something that is at least a potential competitor to them both. I can only imagine a V6 Falcon with the steering wheel on the other side, would be cheaper then a stretched Mustang that has had a heap of engineering done to accept an IRS.

IRS on the Mustang would get blow back anyway, as it will push the price up and irritate a lot of Mustang owners, who for whatever reason believe a live axle is better.

Dan

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

IRS on the Mustang would get blow back anyway, as it will push the price up and irritate a lot of Mustang owners, who for whatever reason believe a live axle is better.

Dan

Dan, S197 mustang was originally designed with CB IRS similar to FG Falcon but with different pick up points to allow unique rear seating position between the wheels.

Long story cut short, Phil Martens who headed up the project ordered the cahnge to Panhard rear end to save approx $170 per car, one chief engineer attached to the project was so incensed that he transferred to another division.

Near the end FoA and FNA were working on a common IRS for Falcon and Mustang,
they almost had it but unfortunately Territory was at design lock in so a common
IRS eluded both camps and FNA chiefs went with SRA Mustang.

I won't over sell this idea but the most expensive parts of common or related vehicles are
power train, electrical systems and suspensions. All the rest like body framing, trim and glass
can be considered unique to the vehicle's top hat.

Now, consider that Falcon and Territory are on separate platforms but still share the most
important 40% of parts, I'm sure that a future Falcon and Mustang product cycle could do likewise....

[outback_ute]

The other question is can the 4.0 I6 survive without an alloy block? Will it be able to meet future emissions regs with the thermal mass to heat?

It may be fitting to drop the Falcon name but the Pulsar/Tiida and Corolla/Auris lessons - or closer to home Laser/Focus! - show that it would be a sure-fire way to kill sales.

Edit - jpd80, surely it makes too much sense to be ignored!!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

The other question is can the 4.0 I6 survive without an alloy block? Will it be able to meet future emissions regs with the thermal mass to heat?

It may be fitting to drop the Falcon name but the Pulsar/Tiida and Corolla/Auris lessons - or closer to home Laser/Focus! - show that it would be a sure-fire way to kill sales.

Edit - jpd80, surely it makes too much sense to be ignored!!

I recon the I-6 will be good for this product cycle, Euro 4 was the biggest hurdle and the future
Euro 5 and 6 are smaller incremental steps - I suspect that I-6 already complies to these levels but
maybe reliability emission testing to 160,000 km mandated by the latter two regs was not done yet.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I won't over sell this idea but the most expensive parts of common or related vehicles are power train, electrical systems and suspensions. All the rest like body framing, trim and glass can be considered unique to the vehicle's top hat.

Now, consider that Falcon and Territory are on separate platforms but still share the most important 40% of parts, I'm sure that a future Falcon and Mustang product cycle could do likewise....

I work in HV electrical substation protection design. I completely agree that electrical systems are an expensive and time consuming 'thing' to get right. Relating it back to car design, apart from gadgets / functions which are just expected to be there, no-one really knows what goes on either. Yet the cash soaking ability can be huge.

With a modularised /customisable platform which can have multiple tophats utilising those power train, electrical and suspensions there could be some real synergies made.

Personally, i'm hoping for a drop forged alloy version of the AU IRS. Similar to what the FG front and Territory front are like. Some good weight savings could be made. Even an alloy version of Control Blade would be decent. Just depends if you want better or best!

[jpd80]

Mustang team likes our floor pan and suspension modules but doesn't need sedan top hat,
FoA team doesn't need Mustang top hat but needs their power trains and electrical systems.
Neither car is on the same platform but the pair (and Territory) could share expensive unseen bits.

Synergy comes in different forms, sometimes you don't have to give up as much as you think...

[DFB FGXR6]

[QUOTE=outback_ute]The other question is can the 4.0 I6 survive without an alloy block? Will it be able to meet future emissions regs with the thermal mass to heat?
QUOTE]
The Golf GTi 2.0 TFSI has a iron block, one of the best engines around and it meets emissions standards. Why is there a fixiation with alloy blocks. I know it makes for better dynamics and is said to improve emission standards due to faster warm up, but the Falcon Six always seems to cop it (mainly the media) for having a durable, strong and cheap Iron block.

[jpd80]

The old wisdom was that an alloy block was needed for the I-6 in order to meet Euro 4 and higher
but when Ford Australia started the T6 Ranger project, the engineers were given access to
computer emission modeling software and after inputting the Falcon I-6 parameters they
became very excited when all that was needed was recalibration and new catalytic converter.

For $21 million, FoA avoids many changes and gets another 5-6 years out of their I-6 engine.

[Road_Warrior]

I would imagine that the addition of EPAS and an electric water pump would further reduce emissions and improve economy due to less parasitic drag on the motor.

Emissions produced during the warmup loop cycle could be reduced by an electric water pump controlled by the ECU - it can be set to provide zero circulation at startup so the coolant warms up quicker and brings the engine to operating temp quicker than it currently does.

[jpd80]

A lot of the "warm up" is not to do with the block, it's the converter light off time.
A different converter and new ECU calibration has made emissions compliance easier.

[TUF_302]

I hope it does mean the end of I6 if Falcon goes FWD, One doesn't work without the other, its a RWD I6 or it's nothing!

[Bossxr8]

The I6 is dead. Numbers continue to drop year on year. TD V6 and Ecoboost 4 will trim that down even further. It will not survive past 2015 or whenever the all new Falcon is due. Its only supporter has been moved out of the way, Marin.

You can also say goodbye to the V8 and probably the ute if Falcon goes onto a Taurus platform, probably the manual gearbox too.

The death of Falcon as we know it. You couldn't even really call it a Falcon, you may as well call it something else.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The I6 is dead. Numbers continue to drop year on year. TD V6 and Ecoboost 4 will trim that down even further. It will not survive past 2015 or whenever the all new Falcon is due. Its only supporter has been moved out of the way, Marin.

You can also say goodbye to the V8 and probably the ute if Falcon goes onto a Taurus platform, probably the manual gearbox too.

The death of Falcon as we know it. You couldn't even really call it a Falcon, you may as well call it something else.

If that happens, I would be more concerned about about local manufacturing than the name used.
Who's to say that Ford doesn't base the whole thing on the next Fusion and import cars from Mexico..

Forget Taurus, Fusion/Mondeo is the big threat to RWD Falcon.



At the moment, I'd say the decision is 50/50 but there's more to this than the cars.
It's also about:
1) what the Aussie government will throw at Ford to keep local manufacturing here,
Tom Gorman successfully wangled enough cash out of Victoria and Federal Governments to
ensure FG wasn't a BF series III and received a new top hat.....
2) The cost of closing down manufacturing here and making everyone redundant versus the change in profit by fully importing fully built up units.
3) The possibility of regional exports to India and China adding to a local Falcon's case.
4) Ford's investment in FPV, what would Prodrive do without supply of RWD falcons.
5) Buyers, how many people want what type of large sedan, the price and what features do they want.

[Paxton]

No. The I6 is dead.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I would imagine that the addition of EPAS and an electric water pump would further reduce emissions and improve economy due to less parasitic drag on the motor.

Emissions produced during the warmup loop cycle could be reduced by an electric water pump controlled by the ECU - it can be set to provide zero circulation at startup so the coolant warms up quicker and brings the engine to operating temp quicker than it currently does.

I think that EPAS and EWP will come for those parasitic loss reasons you have mentioned. As far as the EWP goes, i think they might utilise reverse coolant flow where the flow goes through the head then to the block. Allows for better thermal control of the head, permitting more optimum ignition timing and faster warmup for the block too.

The current I6 is already Euro4 and is effectivey already Euro 5 compliant from all reports.