NSW Speed Camera Tolerance to be 0kph

[AWD Chaser]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/111979/s...duced-to-zero/

According to a recent Fairfax report, the State Debt Recovery Office and the RTA are looking to reduce speed camera tolerances from the current 3km/h margin of error to a zero tolerance. This could mean drivers could be fined for travelling just 1km/h over the limit. If the public needs further proof that speeding fines are enforced simply for revenue raising then this should be seen as the final straw.

A government report from December last year, apparently leaked from the budget committee, says it will remove the specific tolerance – a figure not disclosed – saying it will eliminate the “internal and undisclosed tolerance as applied by the State Debt Recovery Office to digitally captured infringements as notified by the RTA”.

We’re sure loads of motorists will be distressed by the move. A senior police officer even expressed concerns in the Fairfax report, saying that motorists who simply changed their tyres to a larger tread depth – putting off the original speedo calibration – might start getting fined for speeding just a few kilometres over the limit even though the speedo appears to be displaying a legal speed.

This not only puts pressure on motorists to keep their cars as original as possible, but manufacturers will have to start developing extremely accurate speedo readouts. Manufacturers may also have to start supplying specific instructions to owners stating that the car must remain in its standard trim throughout its entire life, even going as far as supplying a very specific tyre brand and size.

What happened to the Australian Design Rules (ADR) specifications that allowed a 10 percent margin for error on speedo readouts from the factory? Well, apparently the RTA and the State Debt Recovery Office aren’t interested in manufacturer tolerances either. Luckily, the ADR standards have since changed so that all vehicles from the factory must readout a speed on or above the actual speed of the car.

So far no date has been announced when this tolerance change will take place – if any announcement will even be made.

Lets hope the new Premier might step in and apply some common sense here...

But the majority of drivers slam their brakes on and go 10k under as it is anyway

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by AWD Chaser

http://www.caradvice.com.au/111979/s...duced-to-zero/



Lets hope the new Premier might step in and apply some common sense here...

But the majority of drivers slam their brakes on and go 10k under as it is anyway

I'm wondering if by specifying a specific tyre, they would be going against ACCC regulations somewhere...?

Either way, if this is true...sucks to be living in NSW right now.

[Uncle_Ken]

My AU doesn't have a digital speedo, so how do I tell if the needle is on or just over the line? I can't look down all time, every now and then I should look at the road. Imagine he police report for a rear end prang..but officer I was only checking on my speed..

[MAGPIE]

How does this improve safety

The wowser's will love it

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by Uncle_Ken

My AU doesn't have a digital speedo, so how do I tell if the needle is on or just over the line? I can't look down all time, every now and then I should look at the road. Imagine he police report for a rear end prang..but officer I was only checking on my speed..

You can get a digital readout when you put the cluster into diagnostics mode, works well!


Im starting to like the "angle grind a camera day" idea more and more...

[Jim Goose]

And you do realise that the ADR which is a federal law wins hands down here?

You can appeal the current stupid fines because your speedo doesnt read withing a 3kmh tolerance. Anyone who pays these fines without appealing it is just pandering to government stupidity and a law which cant work.

Having spoken to a couple of QLD cops about NSW speed camera laws they have said the same thing. Appeal it as its your speedo can be out by +-10% on cars prior to 2006.

After 2006 speedos are to accurate to only plus 10%
(If im reading the ADR right!)

So if you have a pre 2006 car... dont pay ya fine!

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

And you do realise that the ADR which is a federal law wins hands down here?

Having spoken to a couple of QLD cops about NSW speed camera laws they have said the same thing. Appeal it as its your speedo can be out by +-10% on cars prior to 2006.
!

Im not so sure you have the legalities correct here, the argument being that the speedo provided in older cars makes no claims that what you see on the speedo will not be less than the real speed, see:http://www.trafficlaw.com.au/speedos.html

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Im not so sure you have the legalities correct here, the argument being that the speedo provided in older cars makes no claims that what you see on the speedo will not be less than the real speed, see:http://www.trafficlaw.com.au/speedos.html

I'm not so sure a Victorian based information page stands in NSW either...but hey, I could be wrong??

[Jim Goose]

Here we go again...

The ADR is FEDERAL LAW... prior to 2006 a cars speedo only had to be accurate from the factory to a tolerance to -+10%.

This means that if your speedo was showing 100kph, you may in fact be travelling at 110kmh.

The law isnt retorspective, that means the current idiotic speed camera allowance of 3kph IS NOT WORKABLE.(to a car made prior to 2006)
You can appeal it in court, its quite simple.

My speedo on my 1975 XB falcon had an error in it of under reading by 6km on its old standard tyres and rims.

As a driver show me the law where it say YOU must calibrate your speedo and then adjust your real speed to what your indicated speed is?

[Ben73]

How is this about safety.

MONEY MONEY MONEY Get it any way you can. They don't care the slightest about road safety.

[Jim Goose]

The arguement that he is trying show on that website is that as a motorist you should assume your old speedo in not accurate and therefor drive at 90kmh to allow you to remain within 100kmh true.

This is a load of rubbish.

My speedo is under the eyes of the law an "accurate" instrument (+- 10%) and has been used in plenty of cases by motorists and police to win cases in the past.

As a motorist i am not required to calibrate it, or test it.

Police (at least in QLD) will tell you that when using mobile radar they will only pull you over if your going faster then 10% of the posted speed limit as the ADR rule is a gimmie in court and can be argued.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

The arguement that he is trying show on that website is that as a motorist you should assume your old speedo in not accurate and therefor drive at 90kmh to allow you to remain within 100kmh true.

This is a load of rubbish.

My speedo is under the eyes of the law an "accurate" instrument (+- 10%) and has been used in plenty of cases by motorists and police to win cases in the past.

As a motorist i am not required to calibrate it, or test it.

Police (at least in QLD) will tell you that when using mobile radar they will only pull you over if your going faster then 10% of the posted speed limit as the ADR rule is a gimmie in court and can be argued.

Jim, the link I sourced is not just someone's opinion, the author is a motor traffic lawyer and cites real cases where the law was upheld and the cases like you are arguing have been rejected.

Whether it will apply in other states, I dont know, but it would be prudent that both NSW and QLD would follow that precedent given they are going to tighten tolerances, rather than just relying on hearsay from particular police officers.

[Ben73]

So what do you think of 0kmh Tolerance sudszy?? You are a Speed Camera Gunzel You will be loving this.

[|||]

sounds like a job for the guys just elected.

[Jim Goose]

From the ADR website...

This Standard repeals each vehicle standard with the name Australian Design Rule 18/03 — Instrumentation that is: (a) made under section 7 of the Motor Vehicle Standards Act 1989; and (b) in force at the commencement of this Standard. This Standard also repeals each instrument made under section 7 of the Motor Vehicle Standards Act 1989 that creates a vehicle standard with the name Australian Design Rule 18/03 —

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by |||

sounds like a job for the guys just elected.

hahahhaaa ok yes i cant wait to see the changes.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Jim, the link I sourced is not just someone's opinion, the author is a motor traffic lawyer and cites real cases where the law was upheld and the cases like you are arguing have been rejected.

Whether it will apply in other states, I dont know, but it would be prudent that both NSW and QLD would follow that precedent given they are going to tighten tolerances, rather than just relying on hearsay from particular police officers.

sudszy trying to to be nice here but seriously you dont read whats being said.

The ADR comes under the Motor Vehicle Standards ACT of 1989.

Police know for a fact that people can appeal and win because of the older tolerances of pre2006 vehicles.

The State can not make a law which over writes federal legislation.

Again, show me the law where it state my speedo needs to be calibrated or where the law says i must allow for a 10% error in my speedo when driving.

You cant, because there isnt one.
I am under NO obligation to drive at 90kmh indicated just in case my speedo under reads.

My speedo is my guide to my speed on the road as determined by the revelent ADR. I dont need GPS or anything else.

My speedo in my 1975 XB falcon only has 5kmh incriments as does my 2001 AU Falcon. The "tolerances" as it stands in NSW is unworkable as a "3kmh" tolerance IS NOT READABLE ON MY SPEEDO or anyone elses for that matter.

Reducing it to zero kmh tolerance is absolutely impossible tolerance to maintain while driving and is incredibly dangerous as it takes the drivers focus from the road to watching his needle 100% of the time.

You can beat your government drum on here all you like, but none of your arguements stack up, nor can you convince anyone here that this is a "safety" thing.

Its 100% REVENUE raising.... blind freddy can see it.

[Ben73]

Try drive up or down a hill at the speed limit and do not let your needle go slightly over. It's pretty hard unless you are constantly watching down at the speedo instead of the road.

Sudszy, if you think this is a good idea, you are just proving you are a troll with no hope.

Would any cop actually enforce something this pathetic? Or would it just be speed cameras.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Try drive up or down a hill at the speed limit and do not let your needle go slightly over. It's pretty hard unless you are constantly watching down at the speedo instead of the road.

Sudszy, if you think this is a good idea, you are just proving you are a troll with no hope.

Would any cop actually enforce something this pathetic? Or would it just be speed cameras.

Come on man, don't get nasty, or personal, it's really not necessary.

[2011G6E]

It nearly happened with motorcycles some years back. It would have been called "type approval", and it would have meant you could only replace any, and I mean any, part with only a factory original part, from the original manufacturer. Tyres would also have to be identical to those that the bike was supplied with, with no changes.

Of course, we motorcyclists pointed out that some parts just aren't available for older bikes brand new anymore, and what if the tyres aren't available anymore? They do change over the years, and makes of tyre come and go.

It would be very easy to do it with cars, and don't think someone hasn't considered it...

[vanman_75]

unbelievable!!!!

so now will fines be awarded in 1 km increments

[Polyal]

There is no way this could get through, all machines are made with tolerances, even if you set cruise you will be out...same goes for gps type speed readouts linked to it.

Further more what are the error tolerances for the detectors themselves....surely they are not perfect regardless of how often they're calibrated.

Jim if that pre 2006 thing is legit then I wish I knew sooner! I assume the car has to be stock though (rims, tyres, diff)?

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Polyal

There is no way this could get through, all machines are made with tolerances, even if you set cruise you will be out...same goes for gps type speed readouts linked to it.

Further more what are the error tolerances for the detectors themselves....surely they are not perfect regardless of how often they're calibrated.

Jim if that pre 2006 thing is legit then I wish I knew sooner! I assume the car has to be stock though (rims, tyres, diff)?

yes it would have to be running on factory rims sizes and tyre combos available for your vehicle (which is the catch)

not to mention have legal tread depth!

However a good solicitor would come up with a good arguement im sure.
Such as the car meets current roadworthy conditions with the tyre/rim size etc.... there would be ways of arguing the point. (or argue the point yaself, which a few people have done)

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Come on man, don't get nasty, or personal, it's really not necessary.

Have you actually read the stuff this Sudszy 'guy' posts?

In the beginning I had no real problems with him, I could put up with his opinion and posts even though I don't agree with them.
But in each thread he posts, he just proves more and more he doesn't know what he is talking about.

I swear it is just a bored 14 year old with nothing to do. Or some government bureaucrat who is trying to convince people his ideas are good. No real car enthusiast would be this one eyed.

He only ever posts in threads which have the word "speed camera" in it. He never tells anyone anything about himself, even if you specifically ask him. Perhaps because if he reveled his real identity no one would pay attention to a word he said.

Basically I am sick of his trolling and he should find another forum to troll.
I'm sure im not the only one on this forum who is frustrated with this.

Come on sudszy, stand up for yourself. tell us your real intentions for being on this forum, tell us all about yourself, I am personally dieing to know all about you and how you come up with all these brilliant opinions.

[Ben73]

Soon it will be safer to send a text message then to obey the speed limit by watching your speedo, since everyone will be looking down every 2 seconds to make sure they haven't slipped to 1km/h over the limit.

Soon a low range speeding fine will be a harsher penalty then assault.

Well it already is since half of the real drop-kicks in society get let off from punishment for there real crimes.

We need a day were everyone drives around at half the speed limit due to protest.
That will be safe right since if you're re under the limit you are safe? Only thing not safe would be the states revenue raising.

There is a Fishing party, Sex party, No parking metres party and all these other minority political parties. Perhaps they need a motoring party so someone can actually stand up against all this nonsense.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Have you actually read the stuff this Sudszy 'guy' posts?

In the beginning I had no real problems with him, I could put up with his opinion and posts even though I don't agree with them.
But in each thread he posts, he just proves more and more he doesn't know what he is talking about.

I swear it is just a bored 14 year old with nothing to do. Or some government bureaucrat who is trying to convince people his ideas are good. No real car enthusiast would be this one eyed.

He only ever posts in threads which have the word "speed camera" in it. He never tells anyone anything about himself, even if you specifically ask him. Perhaps because if he reveled his real identity no one would pay attention to a word he said.

Basically I am sick of his trolling and he should find another forum to troll.
I'm sure im not the only one on this forum who is frustrated with this.

Come on sudszy, stand up for yourself. tell us your real intentions for being on this forum, tell us all about yourself, I am personally dieing to know all about you and how you come up with all these brilliant opinions.

Yeah, I have, and whilst I don't agree with a lot of it...you can just ignore it...a person's job has nothing to do with this forum. No need to stoop to that kind of stuff, regardless...

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Yeah, I have, and whilst I don't agree with a lot of it...you can just ignore it...a person's job has nothing to do with this forum. No need to stoop to that kind of stuff, regardless...

But forums are also Known as discussion boards. We can't ignore someone with an opposite opinion, otherwise there would be no discussion.

I'm not necessarily asking this guy what his job is, but he seams to be a self-appoint road safety expert, I would love to hear all about his driving experience.

What types of roads he drives, how far and how often he drives.
He should be able to answer these questions since it is related to the topic at hand.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by Ben73

But forums are also Known as discussion boards. We can't ignore someone with an opposite opinion, otherwise there would be no discussion.

I'm not necessarily asking this guy what his job is, but he seams to be a self-appoint road safety expert, I would love to hear all about his driving experience.

What types of roads he drives, how far and how often he drives.
He should be able to answer these questions since it is related to the topic at hand.

Fair enough, you do whatever you feel is best, but watch every thread get closed because it can't remain civil.

But back to topic, a zero tolerance, as has been suggested is not really viable given that 'every' piece of equipment has to have a tolerance, mechanical or otherwise. The RTA seem to have changed their tune slightly from their previous articles, particularly this one...

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/342...asy-on-drivers

There is no such thing as safe speeding but I have always acknowledged that the system could be fairer for motorists who inadvertently speed by just a few kilometres over the limit,'' he said

.

EDIT: granted, that does date back to 2009 apparently, and I couldn't find anything newer related to the topic at hand.

[Ben73]

Yeah I don't actually care about this topic much anymore. I was angry at the suggestion before, but It wont happen. There would actually be an uproar if this actually happened.

if the speed limit is safe, but 1 over is deadly, why the hell is the speed limit so close to teh line between safe and deadly. It should be dropped lower to give room for error.
But most speed limits are safe, and going just over is just as safe. SO this 1km/h thing is just someone trying to justifying their job, looking for a way to make money.

I will always think speed cameras are purely revenue raising.
I know when I go past one I am looking at the road less and my dashboard more.


If you drove on the Freeway and tried not to go over the speed limit even by 1 km/h how often do you think you would have to glance down at your speedo? 5 seconds per minute?
That means between Sydney and Brisbane you would spend over 50 minutes looking at your speedo instead of the road.

Now 5 second per minute is a bit of overkill, but if there was 0 tolerance it would probably be a realistic figure if you want to NEVER break the limit even while going up and down hills that are common on Australian roads.
Its impossible to tell the difference between 110kmh and 111kmh without looking at your speedo.

[HULK EF]

Money grab.. + all the extra new "SAFETY Camera's" -Double the fine for catching you speeding and red light."..

What next? start fining us for driving Under the limit? -Anything more than 1km under the limit.. -FINE.