Random Police checks "not lawful"

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ABC News

Melbourne court rules random police checks 'not lawful'
By court reporter, Sarah Farnsworth
Updated Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:45pm AEST

Court ruling casts doubt on police powers to randomly stop motorists
PHOTO: A Melbourne Magistrate has ruled the Road Safety Act does not give police the unfettered power to stop motorists without suspicion. (AAP: Joe Castro)
MAP: Ascot Vale 3032
A court ruling has cast doubt on police powers to randomly pull over motorists.

Two African men were stopped by police in Ascot Vale last year.

One man was charged with assault when the situation escalated

A magistrate has now ruled the Road Safety Act does not give police the unfettered power to stop motorists without suspicion.

Magistrate Duncan Reynolds ruled "there is no common law power vested in police giving them the unfettered right to stop or detain a person and seek identification details.

"Nor, is s.59 of the (Road Safety) Act a statutory source of such power."

The lawyer representing one of the men, who is fighting assault allegations, Tamar Hopkins, says the decision will have ramifications.

"At present, we understand they're (police) told to go out and stop as many cars as they can," she said.

"This ruling says you can't do that. You must stop cars when there is in fact a reason.

"Random stops are in fact not lawful."

She says it is an important ruling.

"One of the problems with arbitrary stops is that they can be used by police to stop people on the basis of discriminatory grounds rather than after they have formed a reasonable basis to believe that the driver may have committed an offence," she said.

"Many people from African backgrounds, for example, have reported that they have been subject to routine intercepts by police where there is no underlying basis for the stop."

Stops for the purpose of random breath testing are not impacted by the court ruling.

"There is a specific statutory power for police to conduct stops for this purpose," Ms Hopkins said.

Victoria Police are considering their options, including whether to appeal against the ruling at the Supreme Court.

Oops.......

[Silver Ghia]

Further confirms my thoughts that lawyers write the law, then work for their own self interests and profession when applying those laws, not for the benefit of the community as a whole.

I was brought up to always respect the police, never assault them under any circumstances. This just undermines their authority.

[prydey]

i wonder if this would include RBT's? motorists are just randomly flagged in. if the police need to have a reason to pull you over, surely it includes this practice.

Victoria Police are considering their options

so now when they pull you over, the first sentence they utter will be something that will cover the required pre requisite to pull you over.

mind you, with the amount of automation going on these days, the cops don't even need to pull you over any more. we have gantry's being erected in numerous places here in adelaide (so i assume every other state has had them for years) that will hold camera's with the technology to read your licence plate and automatically send you a fine if its expired. i'm assuming there is all other sorts of things they can look into once they have a few details.

i don't actually think it will be much of an issue for the police though. if you look around you will notice that most motorists will give police any number of reasons to pull them over.

[MITCHAY]

It says RBT is not affected by the ruling in the article.

[jimmyxr6t04]

I'm sure the police will find a way around it though. Example; surely it's within the law to pull a car over for the purpose of a random breath test. From there, the police would be within their right to conduct a licence check to ensure the driver does in fact hold a licence. The police can simply ask to see their licence, if the person declines, it may raise the suspicion of the police, and they could then go from there...

From that info, the police will have what they want from the car. If there is anything untoward with the individual, the police will then have powers to arrest...

Very simplified version of events, but i'm guessing it's how it will go...

[castellan]

We lost all them right's in QLD from about 1988 on as you had to do somthing wrong to be puled up.
How could one make any claim to anything, as a cop could say any reason regardless nowdays. like you did not have both hands on the wheel or something in your hand mob ph. you looked like a wanted person.

[FGII-XR6]

from reading the ruling RBT is also illegal in Victoria.

A magistrate has now ruled the Road Safety Act does not give police the unfettered power to stop motorists without suspicion.

this is not a good thing RBT gets drunken idiots off the road. I'm sure they will pass laws to fix this. although stationary RBT will be a problem, mobile RBT will be fine, "I pulled you over because you swerved back there please blow into this device" I'm sure a diligent cop can find a reason to pull you over

[Moby Vic]

For a different perspective on Victoria police look up Malcolm Rosenes or read Andrew Fraser's Snouts in the Trough.

[jimmyxr6t04]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

from reading the ruling RBT is also illegal in Victoria.

this is not a good thing RBT gets drunken idiots off the road. I'm sure they will pass laws to fix this. although stationary RBT will be a problem, mobile RBT will be fine, "I pulled you over because you swerved back there please blow into this device" I'm sure a diligent cop can find a reason to pull you over

The article says that this ruling has no impact on RBT laws.

[flappist]

There are some interesting comments here.

A Magistrate finds it illegal.
Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

WHAT??

The sworn duty of a Police Officer in Australia is to uphold the law NOT manipulate the law to suit themselves.

[2011G6E]

Some people might think this is minor and a case of "if you're not breaking the law you have nothing to worry about"...but the entire meaning is that unless you have firm unbreakable guidelines for behavior and what is and what is not legal, there will always be bad eggs in the force that will exploit that point.

Talk to any copper...we have one in our family...and they all know of cops who go a little too far. That wouldn't be a real problem, except that the person doing it has the might of the legal system behind them and they have a badge and a gun to enforce it.

[pottery beige]

theyre not called random anymore.. they is called routine.......

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...38#mm-breached

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226658277501

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/m...-1226365362213

nothing random at all.....

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by flappist

There are some interesting comments here.

A Magistrate finds it illegal.
Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

WHAT??

The sworn duty of a Police Officer in Australia is to uphold the law NOT manipulate the law to suit themselves.

Its magistrates and lawyers that causing so much wrong in the world.


Police pull some people over, they get agitated and assault the police officers. Now a crafty lawyer and a easy won over magistrate find these people were "pulled over un lawfully", the ones that actually committed a real crime get away with it and the job of a police officer gets harder.

[2011G6E]

AH, there you go...change somethings name, and you take the sting out of it. "A routine traffic stop"...

But really, there would have been nothing "routine" about that stop in the news item...they knew who he was.
I mean, when was the last time you got pulled over for a "random stop" and licence check, and the coppers said "Oh, and while we're at it, just let us pull the hoodlining out of your car to check for drugs..."

[pottery beige]

much lols @ african dudes pulling the dis enfranchised you is picking on me bs with the po po.....

you will and forever will be from now on.....

[Yellow_Festiva]

"without suspicion" can mean a plethora of things..

* If a car roughly matches one wanted
* If the driver perhaps makes eye contact then turns away quickly
* If a driver keeps their eyes glued to the speedo and slightly swerves

All of these can cause 'suspicion'.. couldn't they??

Hell... I got pulled over at 18 in my brown Datto at the local shopping centre with 2 very anglo looking mates. We were detained for 1hr, searched, separated and questioned. After 30 min 2 more police cars turned up at speed, sirens blazing to box us in further, in case the 3 cars already parked around us wasn't sufficient...

I overheard the radio.. they were looking for a stolen cream Sigma with 5 'Middle Eastern males' in it out on a spate of bag snatches.

I guess they 'suspected' it was us.... Was obvious after 5 minutes they had stuffed up..

We were released after 1hr, not even an apology. I got a very stern talking to though, I could have got a fine for my spare tyre not being correctly secured or some BS like that.....

While I fully respect the Law, this incident left me scratching my head for some time....

[FGII-XR6]

in theory yes but in reality they will find a way to continue while " remaining inside the law" . that's not saying this is right or wrong just looking at it realistically.
I previously missed the last bit that states RBT is legal, so all they have to do is pull them over for an RBT, at this time a licence check is legal. So no more pulling over for a licence check, just pull over for RBT problem solved without breaking the law

Originally Posted by flappist

Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

WHAT??

The sworn duty of a Police Officer in Australia is to uphold the law NOT manipulate the law to suit themselves.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

There are some interesting comments here.

A Magistrate finds it illegal.
Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

WHAT??

The sworn duty of a Police Officer in Australia is to uphold the law NOT manipulate the law to suit themselves.

really?

a magistrate said the police need to suspect something before pulling the car over.

police will now 'suspect something' before pulling you over.

its pretty clear. if you think the police will just stop routine traffic checks based on this result, then you are rather naive for thinking so.

[DMENTDGT]

The police make up there own rules to suit them selves or should I say bend the rules slightly...

[flappist]

Ah yes but they will have to record this, probably on the radio, before taking action.

Those who are misusing the system will be held to account.

[FGII-XR6]

so you're saying they have to record all RBTs on the radio? I pity the poor radio operator .
The fact that RBT is still legal gives them the loophole they need to operate as usual with minor procedural changes.
"Good evening driver I have pulled you over for a random breath test, can I see your licence please" .
As the law states you must produce your licence to a police officer on demand you are committing an offence if you refuse to do so at a legal RBT stop

Originally Posted by flappist

Ah yes but they will have to record this, probably on the radio, before taking action.

Those who are misusing the system will be held to account.

[UberKnee]

So because a couple of morons couldn't handle being randomly pulled over and assaulted the police, now all officers are losing power...riiiiight that makes perfect sense (in an insane world).

[flappist]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

so you're saying they have to record all RBTs on the radio? I pity the poor radio operator .
The fact that RBT is still legal gives them the loophole they need to operate as usual with minor procedural changes.
"Good evening driver I have pulled you over for a random breath test, can I see your licence please" .
As the law states you must produce your licence to a police officer on demand you are committing an offence if you refuse to do so at a legal RBT stop

Well up here they do already. Every intercept is recorded from before it happens then enquiries during and finally when the patrol is back on..

[KIWI-1]

This case has nothing to do with driving. It is part of the fallout from the following:

The ABC has uncovered details of a secret Victoria Police operation targeting young African-Australians in Melbourne's inner north.
Operation Molto was conducted by the Flemington Police Station in 2006.
...
Operation Molto may have happened in 2006, but its impact continued to reverberate for at least five years.
In its wake, Victoria Police received almost 30 formal complaints alleging police harassment, abuse, and even the dumping of young teenagers after police bashings.
The ABC understands none of the complaints was upheld after internal police investigations.
Six young men, who were teenagers at the time of the allegations and when they complained about police treatment, recently settled a Federal Court case regarding the matter.
They agreed not to go to trial providing Victoria Police agreed to widespread institutional change, including a revamped education program for officers working with ethnic groups.

More at http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-08/secret-police-operation-targeted-african-australians/4561566

[MITCHAY]

Jeez there are some paranoid people around. It is as if police generally have nothing better to do then pull people over.

They get paid regardless so why would they bother unless they had the slightest doubt . Serious things can and do come of rather trivial stops.

[Dash_XR]

That's so true, the cops usually don't even bother if it's something minor like not indicating or merging on an unbroken line. They should be pulling MORE idiots over.

[IDT]

Why on earth would you want to be a cop?
The whole principal of protecting the public has gone out the window as has the respect for those who are entrusted to do just that....
Political correctness has screwed this country.......

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Jeez there are some paranoid people around. It is as if police generally have nothing better to do then pull people over.

They get paid regardless so why would they bother unless they had the slightest doubt . Serious things can and do come of rather trivial stops.

The thrill and the power?

There have been many dangerous intercepts across the nation where members of the public have been put at great risk and the reason for those intercepts were very trivial matters in the end.

Risk versus reward is how it should be.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by flappist

Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

That's Police hierarchy code for "we'll get the Police Minister to introduce a legislative amendment to Parliament so we can legally do what the court said we couldn't"

Just you wait and see...

[JC]

Originally Posted by IDT

Why on earth would you want to be a cop?
The whole principal of protecting the public has gone out the window as has the respect for those who are entrusted to do just that....
Political correctness has screwed this country.......

You have no idea how true the last line of your statement is - or maybe you do. "PC gone mad", is one of my most used sayings these days....