There are no losers (yeah right)

[cheap]

Once again PC gone mad over in the UK and this stupidity will be attempted here (if it hasn't already).

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/0...tsNews&rpc=451

'No winners' rule sparking a mini-revolution
BY MITCH PHILLIPS
LONDON Mon Jan 27, 2014

As Stuart Lancaster makes his final Six Nations preparations, England's next generation of budding rugby internationals have been told that their competitions must have no winners and that if they are losing a match, the teams will have to be changed.

While England prepare at their usual base in Surrey, the county finds itself on the frontline of a philosophical battle about competitive matches in junior or "mini" rugby.

The Rugby Football Union (RFU) in conjunction with Surrey Rugby last week issued a new set of rules for tournaments for all age groups under-11 that left many parents and coaches initially thinking they were the victims of a spoof.

The key components are that tournaments will no longer have a winner, they will be round-robin only. Coaches must meet before each match to try to pick evenly matched teams and if any matches are proving too "one-sided" then coaches will be forced to "adjust" their teams at halftime to make them closer. Teams will no longer be streamed on ability but will play all matches with mixed ability groups.

Teams who fail to follow the new guidelines will see all their club's age-group sides thrown out of the tournament and face further disciplinary action.

Most minis tournaments are already played on a round-robin basis, with all teams playing four or five matches and the top four or two from competing groups then going on to play semi-finals or a final.

Win, lose or draw all their games, most competing players go home with a "taking part" medal while the winners take the trophy.

Tournaments are usually streamed into 'A' 'B' or 'C/development' levels, so children of similar standards play against each other.

"NO LOSERS"

Hugely popular with children, parents and coaches, the current structure is to be replaced by the new "no losers" approach that is already drawing widespread condemnation and ridicule. Particularly under-fire is the concept of teams being changed mid-match, seemingly removing the whole concept of fighting back against adversity which underpins the very nature of sport.

Rosslyn Park, a hugely successful south-west London club currently boasting between 60 and 80 children in each age group, has already announced its withdrawal from the Surrey Tournament, where the new rules are to be introduced, while many other clubs are canvassing their members for their views.

British newspapers have also been quick to pour scorn on the concept, with a common theme being the question of how the likes of New Zealand and South Africa must be laughing from afar.

A comment piece headlined "must try less hard" in the Daily Telegraph said the move "seems redolent of the heyday of the equality-obsessed 'loony Left'.

"Is such earnestness appropriate for mini-rugby played by eight-year-olds? ('Look here, Smith Minor, you may be pleased you scored that try, but did you stop to think what it might do to the self-esteem of the chaps you thrashed?') And there is a serious drawback to this: misplaced egalitarianism risks denying non-academic children the valuable opportunity of excelling on the sports field. Youngsters, whether playing rugby or Angry Birds, thrive on competition. A 'game' where no one wins is not much fun."

The RFU, however, defends the changes, which it says have been introduced as a way to limit the number of children leaving the sport

Steve Grainger, the RFU's development director, who has suddenly become more in-demand than Lancaster, said they were drawn up after a long consultation period and did not send the message that winning is wrong.

"The tournaments will still have matches which are won or lost but this is about removing the 'win-at-all-costs mentality' which is creeping into the game," Grainger said.

"That can lead to coaches not giving all players a game, just choosing their best players to try to win the tournament, and that will drive kids out of the sport."

Grainger said that it is often the parents on the sidelines who yearn for decisive matches, rather than the children involved, but a straw poll carried out at a Surrey club by Reuters at the weekend found little support for the concept.

Presented with the new tournament rules while battling through the mud and rain on a freezing Sunday morning training session, the overwhelming response from Richmond under-8s was a simple: "that's rubbish.

[FPV_Steve]

That's pathetic. Send these idiots to Mars as part of the first colony and then we don't have to listen to these idiotic ideas.

The whole point of playing competitive sports, is to compete and win as many matches as possible.

[LG17]

The Poms have never liked losing - just ask their current cricket team!

[BENT_8]

Similar rules have been in place in AFL Auskick for a while.
Scores are not counted or recorded so that neither team is declared as a winner.
I have seen first hand the other side of the coin and its not pretty.

My eldest lad wanted to play football with his school mates who were members of the local struggling clubs juniors.
They had a good side on paper. A couple of the kids had skill levels that were way beyond their years, but the coach was ordinary.
He was a nice enough guy who gave his time without hesitation, but he couldn't coach.
Training would involve all over red rover and kick to kick.

On game day it was glaringly evident that every other team had set plays and genuine tactics to get the ball down the scoring end and then set up a zone defence to keep it there peppering the goals until the target was achieved.

The net result was total devastation every weekend to the point where the kids just gave up.
If that wasn't bad enough, every year this guy put his hand up and got the gig because they felt sorry for him I believe.
I discussed transferring my lad to another team to develop, but he wanted to stick it out with his mates, and they were happy because they didn't have to work hard.
By u15s it was embarrassing, my lad gave it up at the end of that season.
It was a real shame as he is a tall lad for his age and played at centre half back. Due to their lack of offence he became very effective at reading the play and being in the right position, but that only stemmed the flow slightly in the end.

I look back on the early years now and I can see that the continual beltings led to a belief amongst the group that they couldn't win, they were defeated before the first whistle blew and it continued for years as ordinary efforts were accepted.

There is plenty of time for competitive sport. Junior levels should be about encouraging participation and not focusing on the score line.

My 2c.

[Thornie]

No winners really makes it bland and makes sports seem pointless, losing gives you the push and motivation to become better, and then you've got the natural high you get from winning.

[JC]

My son plays U10 Auskick with the no scoring rules - but they (the kids) keep score. They know who is winning, and they are proud when they win, and prouder still when they come from behind to do it. Next thing we'll have girls playing footy....oops, too late. Next year (U11), scores will be kept and finals will be played (I think), and he can't wait.

[SB076]

I have kids and I make sure I beat them everynow and then and I make sure they know that they lost. I think it helps them later on in life. I wonder what will happen to kids who grow up thinking everything they do is fine and that everyone is a winner, when they enter the real world?

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by SB076

I have kids and I make sure I beat them every now and then and I make sure they know that they lost.

I certainly hope some form of official sport is involved in this beating...

[JC]

Originally Posted by SB076

I have kids and I make sure I beat them everynow and then and I make sure they know that they lost. I think it helps them later on in life. I wonder what will happen to kids who grow up thinking everything they do is fine and that everyone is a winner, when they enter the real world?

I do the same, and also tell them that participation medals are worthless - they know they participated and "in my day...." we never had them, and I turned out alright. They seem to understand, so much so that their participation medals usually find the bin, but their 1st to 3rd ribbons/medals are kept as mementos of success.

[Lotte]

But..... Finals... Semis.... Real life....

[ford71V8]

Yep, you gotta learn how to lose and accept loss.

The only way to do that is .... lose.

Its tiring hearing this rubbish get worse.
No red crosses on school work because its too negative, trophies for all, etc. Its just stupid.


IN regards to BENT 8's post about a coach getting the gig each year because people dont want to upset him........ expect more of that type of issue in a more-PC world supporting these PC rules. That one example there, look at the results... kids with no belief, kids giving up before they've begun, others unable to nurture a possible talent. But at least we all did the right thing!

[cheap]

My 2 cents worth.

One of my daughters playing netball was in a reasonable team playing Division B and had won 8/8 games by mid year. Flying solo one of the parents insisted that the team be pushed up to Division A. To our surprise we turned up to play the next Saturday and we were in Division A.

As this saga unfolded and during one particular match late in the season I asked the parent why?

She pointed out it was a privileged to be in Division A, I pointed out to her the score as 43 to 2 against us and that she perhaps could stick the privilege where the sun don't shine. The team lost every single match thereafter and came 2nd last in Division A.

My point being, at the beginning of the season all teams are graded so as to even up competition (unless of course an idiot parent interferes). It is unwise to handicap good players/teams just so the bad players feeling don't get hurt. Life doesn't work that way. As I learnt along time ago, not everyone can ride at the front of the bus someone has to ride at the back of the bus.

[GasoLane]

When I went to school (I think Noah was still building the Ark back then) we were told that 'Winning isn't everything......... it's the ONLY thing !'

[2011G6E]

Geez...these little buggers are in for a nasty surprise when they leave school and start working.

There's an old saying: "If you think your parents and teachers are hard on you, wait until you have a boss..."


Life is all about winners and losers...there's a few winners, and a whole bunch of losers, then there's an even bigger bunch of us right in the middle. Your best bet in life is to aim to be a winner, but do your best not to fall anywhere below the middle bunch and realise that this is where you will probably end up, so be happy with it, and really work your **** off to avoid falling into the losers segment.

[FormulaFG]

Originally Posted by cheap

My 2 cents worth.

She pointed out it was a privileged to be in Division A, I pointed out to her the score as 43 to 2 against us and that she perhaps could stick the privilege where the sun don't shine. The team lost every single match thereafter and came 2nd last in Division A.

With all due respect, did you not consider that fact if you do not aim higher you do not achieve higher?

[cheap]

Originally Posted by FormulaFG

With all due respect, did you not consider that fact if you do not aim higher you do not achieve higher?

Yep I agree. Except you wouldn't set up your kid for failure just so as to keep you ego and bragging rights going - would you?

You have to learnt to walk before you can run.

The irony is my daughter has now progressed to division A, whilst the other girl is still in division B.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by cheap

My 2 cents worth.

One of my daughters playing netball was in a reasonable team playing Division B and had won 8/8 games by mid year. Flying solo one of the parents insisted that the team be pushed up to Division A. To our surprise we turned up to play the next Saturday and we were in Division A.

As this saga unfolded and during one particular match late in the season I asked the parent why?

She pointed out it was a privileged to be in Division A, I pointed out to her the score as 43 to 2 against us and that she perhaps could stick the privilege where the sun don't shine. The team lost every single match thereafter and came 2nd last in Division A.

My point being, at the beginning of the season all teams are graded so as to even up competition (unless of course an idiot parent interferes). It is unwise to handicap good players/teams just so the bad players feeling don't get hurt. Life doesn't work that way. As I learnt along time ago, not everyone can ride at the front of the bus someone has to ride at the back of the bus.

But they weren't, because your daughters team were 8 from 8.
They moved them up to a higher grade because they were clearly too good and shouldn't have been in divi B.
It would appear that when really tested, they struggled and the losses didn't sit well amongst the crowd...
That's the beauty of graded sport, you can go from hero to zero in an off season if you find yourself punching above your weight.
If they weren't relegated at the end of the season they will be better for the experience and may surprise you the next season.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by cheap

Yep I agree. Except you wouldn't set up your kid for failure just so as to keep you ego and bragging rights going - would you?

Oh I think you greatly underestimate the extent some parents will go to just to be able to proudly say their kid is playing "in A grade competition", and for kids to have that on their school record, successful or not...

[dmat2391]

The other side of this is that the kids themselves aren't exactly stupid my boy as can most can count and add up. He was always aware if they were winning or losing and when they were getting smashed. Yeah no scores lol. nice thought but effectiveness not really.

[superyob]

A step in the right direction comrades! The sooner we abolish elitism and realise that everyone is the same, the sooner we arrive at a socialist utopia... Only then will we be in Heaven comrades...

[castellan]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Geez...these little buggers are in for a nasty surprise when they leave school and start working.

There's an old saying: "If you think your parents and teachers are hard on you, wait until you have a boss..."


Life is all about winners and losers...there's a few winners, and a whole bunch of losers, then there's an even bigger bunch of us right in the middle. Your best bet in life is to aim to be a winner, but do your best not to fall anywhere below the middle bunch and realise that this is where you will probably end up, so be happy with it, and really work your **** off to avoid falling into the losers segment.

Life is not about wining or loosing it's how you play your part.
Wining big deal loseing so what 2ed 3rd etc did play there part to their best and that is what really matters.
What's the point of wining when the compition were not worthy of jack.
But all this moden day PC trash is just a Cancer created by demented socialist morons who live in a fantacy world.

[Maka]

Ah the social engineers, sport is about winning & losing, so is life, but i understand if its a strategy to get more kids playing sport & away from video consoles

cheers, Maka

[2011G6E]

Unfortunately all the economies that western nations compete with are all about winners and losers...

[FPVS3]

I go to the UK quite regularly with work, English is a 2nd language there now and the PC cr.p is unbelievably over the top, actually discriminates against native English.

[Neale]

I hate this sort of PC approach to sport. I can understand in kids sport, a lot of the kids wont be perfect & they are just starting out.

That being the case why don't they create a handicap style thing like what is used in golf. That way a good team can play a bad team but either side can still have a good chance at winning

[Crazy Dazz]

It's one thing to encourage fairness in the younger age groups (eg rotations ensuring everyone gets a fair crack.) Kids will accept that as part of the rules.
But denying competition is foolish

[jaysway]

Originally Posted by FPVS3

I go to the UK quite regularly with work, English is a 2nd language there now and the PC cr.p is unbelievably over the top, actually discriminates against native English.

Won't be long before it's the same here.

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Similar rules have been in place in AFL Auskick for a while.
Scores are not counted or recorded so that neither team is declared as a winner.
I have seen first hand the other side of the coin and its not pretty.

My eldest lad wanted to play football with his school mates who were members of the local struggling clubs juniors.
They had a good side on paper. A couple of the kids had skill levels that were way beyond their years, but the coach was ordinary.
He was a nice enough guy who gave his time without hesitation, but he couldn't coach.
Training would involve all over red rover and kick to kick.

On game day it was glaringly evident that every other team had set plays and genuine tactics to get the ball down the scoring end and then set up a zone defence to keep it there peppering the goals until the target was achieved.

The net result was total devastation every weekend to the point where the kids just gave up.
If that wasn't bad enough, every year this guy put his hand up and got the gig because they felt sorry for him I believe.
I discussed transferring my lad to another team to develop, but he wanted to stick it out with his mates, and they were happy because they didn't have to work hard.
By u15s it was embarrassing, my lad gave it up at the end of that season.
It was a real shame as he is a tall lad for his age and played at centre half back. Due to their lack of offence he became very effective at reading the play and being in the right position, but that only stemmed the flow slightly in the end.

I look back on the early years now and I can see that the continual beltings led to a belief amongst the group that they couldn't win, they were defeated before the first whistle blew and it continued for years as ordinary efforts were accepted.

There is plenty of time for competitive sport. Junior levels should be about encouraging participation and not focusing on the score line.

My 2c.

Game plans in Ozkick , are you serious . Did you put your hand up to coach or any other parent for that matter .
I take my hat off to anyone that puts their hand up to coach a bunch of kids , a lot more time involved than dropping them off and picking them up , and the possibility of being ridiculed if little Timmy doesn't reach his parents expectations , which has always been a issue .
I imagine it would be even harder now than 20 years ago as you have to be careful how you attempt to motivate without offending the little darlings .

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Game plans in Ozkick , are you serious . Did you put your hand up to coach or any other parent for that matter .
I take my hat off to anyone that puts their hand up to coach a bunch of kids , a lot more time involved than dropping them off and picking them up , and the possibility of being ridiculed if little Timmy doesn't reach his parents expectations , which has always been a issue .
I imagine it would be even harder now than 20 years ago as you have to be careful how you attempt to motivate without offending the little darlings .

Yes, many of the fathers did, but his son was a stand out, made association every season and they were too scared to lose them.
Don't get me wrong, he was a great bloke.

As for the game plan, I kid you not. When every kid on our team was running to the ball, many of the opposition teams would hold their positions so even if we did get the ball in the back line it would be rebounded back in.
Moving up through the grades the link up footy and zone defence was really coming into it.
You'd watch the opposition coach and he'd be using his runner, making changes. You could see the ruck hitouts and we looked like witches hats, it broke down from there.
Quite often my son took an overhead mark from a quick snap out of the centre as he would float between the 50 and centre square and read it off the tap.
I don't know about mini league in your area, but clubs like Salisbury North, Salisbury, Elizabeth and Central United have turned out guys like Gary Window, John Platten, Andrew and Darren jarman, Travis Varcoe, Gilbert Mcadam, Michael O'loughlin and more.
The zone has always been strong, if you are below par you get smashed.

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Geez...these little buggers are in for a nasty surprise when they leave school and start working.

Even going for a job - you can meet all the requirements - relevant experience, good work history, references etc and still miss out and this can happen many times before you land a job.