Engine build advice - general

[happy1]

Hi,
I am going to build together an engine that I have dismantled, with new bearings, piston rings etc, and would like to discuss some best practices, and general advice.

The engine I am building now is a JCB 444 Dieselmax, 4.4 litre turbo, with mechanical Delphi injector pump. It has very low hours, but has been under seawater for a little while, and was preserved before I got it.
I have dismantled it successfully, and found that two of the four pistons had seized rings, and a some corrosion on the friction coating on the skirts.

So this engine has no visible or measurable wear, but the bearing shells were not pretty, they seemed to have worked as 'anodes' (discolored and some powder corrosion), so I have ordered all new bearing shells.

First discussion topic; Crank bearing surfaces: Mine are not scored, not deep rusted, mostly shiny but have some slight discoloring from the bearing shells being in contact with them. I was thinking using 800 grit paper and give them a light rub. Is that bad? I have seen a racing engine specialist here in Perth offering polishing of cranks, should I instead send it there, or what is the general advice by guys on the forum for sandpaper grit level if touching the crank surfaces?

Second topic; Cylinder honing: My engine had seized with all pistons about half way down, and after knocking out the pistons with a wooden block and hammer, there are no obvious pitting or scratches in any of the bores. I have already used some 400 grit paper and my hand to rub off some of the loose grub or dirt that was between the piston and wall, (first I knocked the pistons down, cleaned the bores a little before knocking the pistons up and out).
I have bought a cheap cylinder hone tool with 3 spring loaded stones, it says 'Medium', and my plan is to use the battery drill and this hone to do a light hone of the cylinder bores. I intend to keep standard size pistons and rings, and the purpose of the honing is just to clean away any light rust and stains where the pistons were sitting. What is your general advice, should I hone mostly in the lower section and less / none towards the top of the bores, or just a light cross pattern all up and own the bores? Should I ditch the 'medium' and get some 'fine' stones instead?

Third topic: Assembly paste; Before when building motorbike engines, I used 'Suzuki Moly paste' on all the bearing shells and rotating parts.
I have seen some youtube builders only using oil on the bearing shells. Is the general advice to add some moly paste too? Is there a particular brand / type that you use, or any 'installation paste' (for camshafts etc.)

Fourth topic: Bearing clearance: Previously when I was building motorbike engines, the bearing shells were always available in multiple tolerances, and I used the tolerance stamping and a table to find right shells, or measured the diameters before ordering shells, and i used plastic-gauge to measure the shells as part of the assembly process. Since this is a larger diesel engine it comes only with one size 'STD' bearings for the crank main and rod big end bearings. There is no suggestion to check clearance when assembling it, but do you do it anyway as an 'always', just to be sure?

Fifth topic: Clean-up of seal surfaces; i plan to use 320 or 400 grit paper by hand to rub all sealing surfaces in 'along' direction, not across the sealing direction, until squeeky clean steel. Does any of you use a more 'power tool' method, such as rotating brush or even flap disc on a small angle grinder?
I wasn't going to send the head away for surfacing, as it wasn't old, didn't have a gasket problem, and didn't have high running hours before being taken apart. Any comment or recommendations?

Sixth topic: Re-use of certain bolts; When assembling an engine it could be hundreds of dollars in new bolts. For this one I have bought new rod bolts, the were only $38 for 8, but I haven't decided yet if I should get new head bolts as well. This engine isn't for sale, and in worst case it develops a headgasket issue in the future, it wouldn't be a problem for me, versus a spend of approx $300 for 10 new bolts now. The parts dealer recommended bolts, but for now I plan to see it run first, before spending more than needed. I know that some bolts are stretch bolts, but these ones looks just fine. I think i will give them a try.

Seventh topic: Refurbish pistons with new anti-friction coating? Two of my pistons had some corrosion on the graphite sulfide low-friction coating on the piston skirts. It seem to have become 'mush' and scrapes off. The engine coating specialist in Perth that I called earlier in the week offered to refurbish my pistons and re-apply new low-friction ceramic coating on the skirts for $45/ per piston. The alternative is to buy new pistons for $250/each. I will give the coating a go first. Any comments? The guy recommended doing all 4 at once, I can't really see a reason to remove coating from the two that looks like new, just to re-apply it. In this case two of my pistons looks like new, no scratches or wear. Generally, do you apply low-friction coating when building engines?

I saw one of these new JCB 444 engines for sale new for $17k, but I have high hope of 'rescuing' mine from being dipped in seawater, and getting it running 'like new' again. So far I have spent $ 450 on all the crank bearing shells and rod bearing shells, and 4 piston ring kits. It will be another $400 for head gasket, other gaskets, oil filter, diesel filter, etc, and I will need a $400 core for the turbocharger, $400 for a new starter, and $250 for a new alternator. plus a bit for various tools and consumables. The aircon compressor doesn't turn either, and I will drop it off to the local Aircon guru for some new bearings.

Thanks for any advice. Hopefully it can be useful read for others doing DIY engine build as well. Cheers,

[happy1]

Hi again,
For the crank bearing surfaces, I had a go tonight with 800 grit paper wet with WD40, and it cleaned up the crank surfaces beautifully.

Cheers

[Citroënbender]

P800 is pretty coarse. I wouldn’t worry about discolouration but more about what you’ve done to the journal now.

[roKWiz]

A 4.4ltr Isuzu diesel would surely have cylinder liners but you do not mention them.
Usually rebuilding a diesel, the first step is to acquire a full rebuild kit which include the pistons, liners and rings as a matched set.
As for the mechanical rotary injection pump, it will definitely need rebuilding as you state it went into seawater. Mechanical pumps have fine tuning rods, shafts and governors requiring metering, the slightest sign of water ingress can cause all sorts of tuning problems including a runaway situation.

A great resource for diesel engine building is 4btswaps.com look through the Isuzu threads.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

A 4.4ltr Isuzu diesel would surely have cylinder liners but you do not mention them.
Usually rebuilding a diesel, the first step is to acquire a full rebuild kit which include the pistons, liners and rings as a matched set.
As for the mechanical rotary injection pump, it will definitely need rebuilding as you state it went into seawater. Mechanical pumps have fine tuning rods, shafts and governors requiring metering, the slightest sign of water ingress can cause all sorts of tuning problems including a runaway situation.

A great resource for diesel engine building is 4btswaps.com look through the Isuzu threads.

Yep, had to google that particular diesel. No liners, looks like a nice one to fix.

I would still have the mechanical injection pump looked at if it did take a dive. About $1500 on average to rebuild a mechanical injection pump but worth it if you can save the other work by yourself.

[happy1]

Thanks guys,
In my case it's a JCB 444 engine (for tractor / machinery), not an Isuzu...
Since you think 800 grit (wet with WD40) is rather course, (it didn't look that way to me) but I will switch to a quick gentle round of 1500 grit when finishing it off. I used a long stripe of paper and had in a U-shape over the journal, and did a few light movements backwards-forwards, so I don't recon I have 'done' anything measurable change to the journals.

Yes I know I'm taking quite a chance on that injector pump, but the filter just before it still had only clean diesel in it, and the pumps look like it has diesel in it, so I may be lucky. If not I can find a s/hand one off ebay for about $1k.
Timing the pump is a pain, as I couldn't get the engine to TDC before disassembly, but I made some marks on the timing gears and locked the pump at that, so will assemble it there, and see if it runs.

Cheers,

[Pis-ton broke]

i recently replaced the head gasket and bearings in my fiat 650 (3 cyl. 65hp) tractor. i,ve never done a tractor before and it was a great learning experience for me and enjoyable.

i my situation, the fait is only used for grass slashing and grader blade work. and not pulling a plough. so its its light work .

number 3 pot had blown the had gasket. there was very low scoring in one spot in the bore, and a lot of water staining too.
i measured the bores up and they all came in good spec.
3 piston hard a tight spot on a ring and light scoring. a bit of pitting, due to water in the combustion, i reckon. the other pistons were good.
because this tractor just plugs around , mainly slashing, and was running fine prior to the head coming off, and i don,t have stacks of money. i cut corners in the repair work. i decided to salvage what i could.

i hand honed the bores, 3 bore cleaned up nice, with light staining remaining and maybe two very small scratches in the bore , that past the finger nail test.

3 piston had a ring catching on a landing, i just filed and fitted the ring to it. on the piston scratches, i filed out the scratches and scoring with a second cut file and then smoothed with 600 grit wet and dry. there was nothing i could do about the pitting in the piston. some pitting was 2-3mm diameter. all pistons were wire wheeled clean.

i left the crank in position ,( i didn,t want to redo the timing). the journals looked very good .i removal all main bearings and replaced with new. plus new clutch throw out bearing.

i got the head decked and should have got new head bolts , but none available. got the injectors tested, they were good. did nothing to the injector pump.

reamebled the engine , and used copper head gasket spray on head. got a brand new water for $250, what a score for a 44 yo italian tractor. new secondhand radiator and filled with a mixture of soluble oil and water. serviced air cleaner, old oil bath type.

got it running pretty much straight way, it runs well, better than before. it doesn't smoke , maybe a bit when hitting throttle. starts immediately. i,m really happy with how it turned out. ive used it many times since and all good.

if the tractor was used for commercial use , i would have done a more proper job, ie , new pistons, and liners etc.

jcb are good english tractors and i reckon you with be able to get lots of parts for them.

keep us up to date, i love to here of the "nuts and bolts " detail of a build.

you could try a wire wheel on a 4 -5 " grinder for cleaning old gasket material on cast iron (or steel) only. will save a stack of time.

[happy1]

Piston coating:
I dropped the two pistons that had damaged coating off to the engine coating specialist today, for refurbishment of the anti-friction coating. The two guys there said; "No problems at all, we are doing a batch of pistons this Friday.. $40 +GST per piston" for the entire process: (surface prep and application)

https://cicceramics.com.au/coatings/piston-coatings/

Looking forward to getting them back.
I'm saving about $400 doing it this way, compared with buying two new ones.

Cheers,

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Yep, had to google that particular diesel. No liners, looks like a nice one to fix.

I would still have the mechanical injection pump looked at if it did take a dive. About $1500 on average to rebuild a mechanical injection pump but worth it if you can save the other work by yourself.

Agree at the very least flush the injector pump , if any sea water has got in through a seal it'l be toast

[happy1]

Hi,
Of course my injector pump is toast if there has been as much as a drop of water in it. Once I have installed the crank, the camshaft, and the timing gears I should be able to hook up the injectors into the air or into a container, and give it a spin with the starter to see the injection pulses are happening.

Right now I'm not going to touch the injection timing. If I do that, then the pump needs to be sent away for correct timing locking at TDC.

By the way, these late model Delphi pumps are piles of poo from the factory, containing many plastic parts etc. I have a few of them for parts already. Could possibly build one out of many, or just swap the pressure head on it etc.

Haven't received my cylinder honing tool yet. It's on its way in the post. Any opinions if I should almost leave the bores alone, just do a light clean-up, or more? Again, this one has no wear, no scratches, so in my view just a light clean-up, in particular where the pistons had been sitting.

Yes, it seems easy to get parts for these. I was a bit worried about the aftermarket parts from India on Ebay, so I got a mix of aftermarket and genuine parts from Rouse Hill Tractors (Sydney). They had all the overhaul parts in stock at reasonable prices.

[Pis-ton broke]

whats the end goal , or tractors job?
if the bores measure into spec. i would hand hone it, what have you got to lose, hand honing will high-light any flaws in the bores,imo.
pictures would be great.

[happy1]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

you could try a wire wheel on a 4 -5 " grinder for cleaning old gasket material on cast iron (or steel) only. will save a stack of time.

HI Pis-ton,
Thank you for advice. I got a $7.50 rotating wire wheel from Bunnings today, and installed it on my grinder and did some clean-up of the sealing surfaces.

I found some pitting corrosion on some of the seal surfaces that I maybe otherwise would have overlooked.

I also discovered that when knocking out one of the seized pistons last week, it left a tiny scratch up the cylinder wall in one of the bores. It must have been the end of one of the seized rings that did it.

Whilst I could have got this engine 'running' by slapping it together, I have decided to take the block to a machining shop. It will likely need an oversize piston.
Some of the small pitting corrosion was on the cylinder head towards the gasket just where the cylinder seal is, therefore I will need to have the head skimmed also.

Apologies, no photos yet. Have some that I will post soon.

Cheers,

[Pis-ton broke]

good one, just watch out , cause the little wires fly out like high speed little spears and stick in your skin, wear glasses mate.

i didn,t realize the engine was so expensive, in hindsight , i too would send it to the machine shop.

they will mic it up and tell you what's going on with it.
i,m curious about the balance shaft bearing, and there replacement quote (if getting replaced). i was quoted a $1000 + to do 6 in a 3l ranger motor.

[happy1]

My block came back from honing the 4 bores at 'Harris' in Osborne Park yesterday. $100,
https://www.harrisengines.com.au/services/

- Not the only place in Perth that does this type of work.

[happy1]

Anyone else building an engine, feel free to use this post. It wasn't meant to be just for my JCB engine.

Today I assembled the crank and bearings into the block halves. I decided on using Permatex 'Aviation Form-a-gasket' between the block and the lower deck, since the original product also was a similar brown product.

I tried searching the internet if I should use RTV (silicone based) or 'Aviation Form-a-gasket', and there were many describing that for close gap engine flanges use Form-a-gasket, while RTV is more for larger gaps such as sump pans.

Cheers,

[robinvirant]

I've just completed head o'haul on XH 4.0 lt. All seemed ok until I hit "Start".
No power to starter.

All instrument lights work, radio works, just a warning sign (circle around !)

Do I need a CPU reset after battery was disconnected for so long????

I started this in February and got stuck in Thailand for 7 months while waiting for head tests and machining.

Would appreciate some help here.

[happy1]

Hi,
This thread is maybe more about mechanical aspect of engine building. (Not electronics).

I don't know the XH well enough to answer you.
Generally, if it has an aftermarket immobilizer then try to remove that.

Try a post in the older Falcon section, or the ECU section.

Cheers,

[The Yeti]

To late now but the JCB 444 has liners, not overly difficult to get out if your have the a puller

https://jobbo.en.alibaba.com/product...ine_parts.html

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

To late now but the JCB 444 has liners, not overly difficult to get out if your have the a puller

https://jobbo.en.alibaba.com/product...ine_parts.html

I initially thought that too but I reckon that is just a generic picture Alibaba use.
From memory when I looked this engine up there was no liners. If there was happy 1 surely would have just replaced them for a new inframe kit.

This youtube video link partly shows a 444 rebuild at 30min 50secs show piston install into a clean block with NO liners or protrusion visible.

https://youtu.be/L9FD0_nVPjY

happy 1 did you take any pictures of the block, pistons, crank and pan ?

[happy1]

Hi guys,
Thanks for the tip, but no it doesn't have liners. I have seen some stores sell liners, but that must just be for machining out severely damaged blocks.

Yes I have some photos, will try to upload them one day.
I'm a bit slow, I have installed the crank and torqued up the lower deck.

I grabbed the oil pump and was about to install it, but found it had seized. A bearing or bushing on the shaft that was stuck, so I ordered a new complete pump $150,

I also ordered a new 4.2kW starter this week from UK, $350 incl. shipping.

I grabbed the 'spacer' between the flywheel and crank and was about to install it, but found that it had pitting corrosion where the rear seal runs, so I ordered a new one from Rouse Hill Tractors for $ 70. They will order that from their supplier in UK.

(Alternatively, I could have gotten a stainless steel 'seal sleeve' or what you should call them from the industrial bearing shop, and pressed onto the damaged seal surface). Since the new original 'spacer' was cheap I chose that instead of a patch job. If it had been a typical engine where the rear seal goes against the crank itself then it would have made sense to use the repair sleeve.

I spent probably an hour flushing out grub and rust flakes from the oil gallery inside the hollow camshaft. That must have had water in it. Obviously it could have fatal consequences if there are particles left in there, as they could clog up oil supply to the camshaft bearing surfaces. (The cam runs directly in the block, without bearing shells). I'm counting on my finger tips if I should drill out one of the blind plugs in the end of the camshaft, in order to mechanically scrape out any remaining flakes from the inside of the camshaft, but then I would need to find a suitable plug again to hammer back in. It looks like JCB have used steel balls (same as in ball bearings) to press into each end of the camshaft for sealing the oil gallery.

Other than that, everything is looking very good

[roKWiz]

Yeah, diesels of this approx capacity all seem to feature this.
4 and 6 cylinder Perkins has a similar setup regarding the bolt on rear main seal housing. Problem is the very end of the crankshaft sometimes wears on that seal lip necessitating a shim to locate the seal slightly further off that worn edge.
One of my Ford Trader's (575 000kms) has this mod on its Mazda/Perkins diesel which has worked now for several years.

Of course there is the other way to fix this but requires removal machining crank end and oversize seal.

Sounds like your getting it done, might be an idea to remove that plug end on the camshaft housing to be sure its clean.

[Pis-ton broke]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Sounds like your getting it done, might be an idea to remove that plug end on the camshaft housing to be sure its clean.

i would do this too, plus thoroughly clean all oil galleries in engine block and crank ect.

the engine sounds quite dirty inside.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

To late now but the JCB 444 has liners, not overly difficult to get out if your have the a puller

https://jobbo.en.alibaba.com/product...ine_parts.html

Just while we are on the subject of liners, here's a couple of pictures of just one piston and sleeve for the VT903 Cummins which went into my 14ltr engine after discovering a leaky liner a few years ago.
The pistons measures in at over 5 inches diameter to give you scale. The inframe kit liners, rings, pistons, full bearing kit, full gasket kit and seals comes in at $3,300 still cheap compared to Caterpillar stuff.

[wodahs]

whilst on liners
a little trick i was taught in removing them if you dont have a puller to do so is to run stick welds up the bore thus shrinking the liner when its cooled and helps to remove
the bloke that showed me this had me doing a rebuild on his 8t isusu truck as a back yard rebuild after i told him he'd need the puller to do the job as thus was the way i was originally taught

and with polishing crank journals we used (when i was doing my trade at the railways) a leather strap like used in/for cut throat razors either by hand with the crank held still and dragging the strap back and forth or rotating the crank whilst holding the strap

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by wodahs

whilst on liners
a little trick i was taught in removing them if you dont have a puller to do so is to run stick welds up the bore thus shrinking the liner when its cooled and helps to remove
the bloke that showed me this had me doing a rebuild on his 8t isusu truck as a back yard rebuild after i told him he'd need the puller to do the job as thus was the way i was originally taught

and with polishing crank journals we used (when i was doing my trade at the railways) a leather strap like used in/for cut throat razors either by hand with the crank held still and dragging the strap back and forth or rotating the crank whilst holding the strap

Yep, I think I saw this once too. Those pullers are bl**dy expensive to buy. Cummins sized ones are something like $1800 now, I borrowed one myself.

Apparently with the 2 stroke Detroit liners you can use a bolt the same length as the actual liner diameter, shove it in the liners air intake ports and hand crank the engine in situ to draw them out complete with piston and rod.
They don't recommend re using 2 stroke liners anyway.

Thought this was cool. Bus Grease Monkey.

[wodahs]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Yep, I think I saw this once too. Those pullers are bl**dy expensive to buy. Cummins sized ones are something like $1800 now, I borrowed one myself.

yep even at the railways and with all the equipment at our use we made the pullers instead of buy them due to price

lathe turning down the under sleeve plug to the same size as the sleeve and drilling and tapping to suit a long threaded rod
atop of the block a large chunk of pipe wider than the liner size on end with a plate welded to the end with a hole larger than the threaded rod and the threaded rod with a nut welded to the end
and just wind up till the base plate pulls the liner up in to the pipe atop
albeit the lathe to make such tool prob was in the tens of thousands $ even tho useable for much else we did to make the $1800 tool
did notice that a lot in doing my trade that they would prefer us to build our tools as much as possible rather than buy in , so we bought tools to make tools

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by wodahs

whilst on liners
a little trick i was taught in removing them if you dont have a puller to do so is to run stick welds up the bore thus shrinking the liner when its cooled and helps to remove
the bloke that showed me this had me doing a rebuild on his 8t isusu truck as a back yard rebuild after i told him he'd need the puller to do the job as thus was the way i was originally taught

and with polishing crank journals we used (when i was doing my trade at the railways) a leather strap like used in/for cut throat razors either by hand with the crank held still and dragging the strap back and forth or rotating the crank whilst holding the strap

As an aside I have used the same weld trick to remove gearbox spigot bearing outers from the end of the cranshaft.If you can’t pull the bearing out complete,then break it up and use weld to shrink the outer,when it cools the bearing just slips out.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by wodahs

yep even at the railways and with all the equipment at our use we made the pullers instead of buy them due to price

lathe turning down the under sleeve plug to the same size as the sleeve and drilling and tapping to suit a long threaded rod

did notice that a lot in doing my trade that they would prefer us to build our tools as much as possible rather than buy in , so we bought tools to make tools

Never a lathe user but was lucky enough later to find a couple of solid steel discs at a local swap meet some guy was selling (I think they were tractor bearing shell removal discs) with the rebated edge that just happened to fit the liner sizes of both the Cummins and the Ford Trader diesels.
Was just a matter of making the bridge and using some tempered all thread to make the rest.

Yep, trade wise we were required to blacksmith our own cutting points and Gad pins (plugs and feathers) forging and tempering was just part of the apprenticeship.
Unfortunately its hard to find a good 70kg anvil these days for such stuff.
I get a guy in the Hunter Valley who's part of the Heritage Railway there to make gads these days.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

As an aside I have used the same weld trick to remove gearbox spigot bearing outers from the end of the cranshaft.If you can’t pull the bearing out complete,then break it up and use weld to shrink the outer,when it cools the bearing just slips out.

On car size stuff, I love the old trick of stuffing full of grease then tapping a bolt wrapped in electrical tape into the opening forcing the spigot out.

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

On car size stuff, I love the old trick of stuffing full of grease then tapping a bolt wrapped in electrical tape into the opening forcing the spigot out.

Yeah have done that plenty times,works better on bushes rather than bearings,where the grease can’t squeeze out through the bearing