Ford cutting EV production

[Syndrome]

Another example of companies overestimating demand for EVs.

https://www.reuters.com/breakingview...ay-2023-10-26/

Kypez in 3 - 2 - 1

[Syndrome]

https://techcrunch.com/2023/10/26/fo...s-with-demand/

[jpd80]

Will be interesting to see how many Mach E sales Ford gets in Australia versus Tesla Y sales…
I don’t think there’s any supply pressure on Mach E, America and UK have gone off the boil……

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Will be interesting to see how many Mach E sales Ford gets in Australia versus Tesla Y sales…
I don’t think there’s any supply pressure on Mach E, America and UK have gone off the boil……

It's $15K more than the Model Y, it's a hard sell being priced that much over the established market leader when you have no credibility in that segment.

Ford EV is like Chinese ICE - it's a new field for them and they have limited experience and are saddled with huge capital investment in existing tooling and manufacturing methods.

Tesla is at the advantage here.

[kypez]

I guess we'll just ignore that Ford had a production stop due to the fire issue (F150). They needed to stop to identify if it was a design flaw or a manufacturing issue (turned out to be the latter). But that would've spooked buyers. And the price creep happening on the car.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, the whole market is struggling in the US with the economy in the toilet.

Just goes to show how far ahead Tesla are with their designs to make EVs so profitable. Ford need to change their approach to EVs. Toyota has recognised that and are changing their method to build their cars.

All the learnings that Tesla went through years ago. You can't build an EV profitably using old manufacturing techniques.

Mach E is going to be smoked in Australia. I love the Mach E (and as someone who buys EVs, I'd be their target market) and the GT seats are awesome but no way would I buy one, no matter how big a Ford fan I am, for $15k+ over a Model Y. Rear seat room is much less and the boot space is also compromised. Not paying a premium for a smaller car with less range, performance and a mechanical steering adjustment!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

It's $15K more than the Model Y, it's a hard sell being priced that much over the established market leader when you have no credibility in that segment.

Ford EV is like Chinese ICE - it's a new field for them and they have limited experience and are saddled with huge capital investment in existing tooling and manufacturing methods.

Tesla is at the advantage here.

Yeah I know and that’s why I’m saying it will be interesting to see how many sales they get.

You’d really have to want a Mach E to spend that much more over a Y but some are like that…..

This car could come and go very quickly if people ignore it, I bet they get dumped into internal fleet
and then sold off as low km “demos”.

[kevino]

Another news Corp article on this quoted Farley saying people are not prepared to pay a premium for ev and are buying petrol and diesel at lower prices

Same here

Unless you want to buy Chinese takeaway

[ivorya]

Ford has just recently purchased a number Giga Presses for their production EV's.

With the Cutting, i wonder if this is just a cycling of new tooling to come online for efficiencys.

[jpd80]

A couple of months back, Ford basically doubled production of Mach E right as early adopters walked away from it,
so total inventory suddenly ballooned to 20,000 vehicles. Ford then cut production back to previous level but
they still have a ton of stock with US dealers - roughly 12,000 unsold vehicles that are starting to be discounted.

So this is why I wonder about that $85,000 entry price point for a Basic Mach E, that converts to about US$60,000
That same model in the USA as a LHD model is priced at US$42,000, so freight and additional for RHD but still…..

[ozpacman]

Originally Posted by kypez

Just goes to show how far ahead Tesla are with their designs to make EVs so profitable.

Umm - pardon?

https://fortune.com/2023/10/19/tesla...not-tech-firm/

[kypez]

Originally Posted by ozpacman

Umm - pardon?



https://fortune.com/2023/10/19/tesla...not-tech-firm/

Wow. The level of your lack of intelligence by quoting that article just doesn't even warrant a response!

Go look up the profitability per car vs market valuations.

[ozpacman]

Oh dear Kypez. Please forgive me for having the audacity to throw in my two bob's worth, whilst ignoring the possible presence of your your most wondrous self.

I really shouldn't have wagged Kindy...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by ozpacman

Oh dear Kypez. Please forgive me for having the audacity to throw in my two bob's worth, whilst ignoring the possible presence of your your most wondrous self.

I really shouldn't have wagged Kindy...

Year to date, Tesla’s pretax profit sits at close to $13.2 billion but absolutely true that
Tesla’ s Q3 result was $4.1 billion, down 22% from the $5.7 billion earned in Q3 2022.

And on the strength of that “bad result” Tesla’s stock price has retreated to $200 which
means that Musk’s own portfolio has taken a huge dump but only if he sells….

In comparison, Ford earned a mere $1.2 billion pretax profit in the same period
and I’d be willing to bet that Tesla’s profit is as big as GM and Ford combined….

https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesl...3-Update-3.pdf

[kypez]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Year to date, Tesla’s pretax profit sits at close to $13.2 billion but absolutely true that

Tesla’ s Q3 result was $4.1 billion, down 22% from the $5.7 billion earned in Q3 2022.



And on the strength of that “bad result” Tesla’s stock price has retreated to $200 which

means that Musk’s own portfolio has taken a huge dump but only if he sells….



In comparison, Ford earned a mere $1.2 billion pretax profit in the same period

and I’d be willing to bet that Tesla’s profit is as big as GM and Ford combined….



https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesl...3-Update-3.pdf

Thank you

[Rallye Sport]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Another example of companies overestimating demand for EVs.

https://www.reuters.com/breakingview...ay-2023-10-26/

Kypez in 3 - 2 - 1

Theres a whole new section for this kind of thing.

https://fordforums.com.au/forumdisplay.php?f=418

Nonsensical meme in 3 - 2 - 1

[jpd80]

Ford has a big issue now, it was going in boots ‘n all with massive BEV plans but now many of the
early adopters have moved on with little interest from buyers regarding its existing BEV Lightning,
Mach E or e Transit. It’s really thrown a huge red flag to the brass, they don’t know what to do…..

Europe and America are seeing Model E sales at around 5,000/month for each while Tesla Y sales
continually dwarf those numbers. As we discussed earlier Mach E prices for Australia are simply
uncompetitive with Tesla Y which is $15,000 less and more readily available.

So it seems like to me that Mach E sales in our market will be way less, like in the hundreds
not the thousands that some had hoped for. When will Ford start listening to its customers.

A big problem with Ford’s electrification plans is that they keep changing them every couple of years,
some might say that’s prudent to keep things on course but it also shows a distinct lack of vision and
persistence. Back in 2018, then CEO Jim Hackett partnered with VW to access is MEB electric toolkit,
agreeing to develop at least two vehicles at Cologne with expansion to North America.

Fast forward to 2022 and the plans change to limiting the VW based vehicles to just two European models
and then progressively, Ford starts replacing the VW sourced batteries and electrical components with
it’s own equipment. I think Ford is really struggling with making anything like an affordable BEV, especially
if it’s presenting Mach E as a replacement for its larger compact SUVs like Edge/Endura.

In North America, Ford continued to tinker with the design of its Gen 2 mid sized BEV SUVs, going from
the desirable boxy three row SUVS to a low sleek three row crossover in the name of aero efficiency
and extending battery range. Guess what, the research clinics hated it, so now has these are locked in
for America knowing that few customers want them….insane.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Ford has a biggie now, it was going in boots n all with massive BEV plans but now many of the
early adopters have moved on with little interest from buyers regarding buying the BEV Lightning,
Mach E or e Transit.

Europe and America are seeing Model E sales at around 5,000/month for each while Tesla Y sales
continually dwarf those numbers. As we discussed earlier Mach E prices for Australia are simply
uncompetitive with Tesla Y which is $15,000 less and more readily available.

So it seems like to me that Mach E sales in our market will be way less, like in the hundreds
not the thousands that some had hoped for. When will Ford start listening to its customers.

I'm on a few EV pages and fly the Ford flag as best as possible. Most common comment is, I'm not going to pay that much for a Ford. My sister in Norway was thinking of selling her Model 3 for a Mach E till pricing came out. Heck, I was too till local pricing came out.

Ford missed the early adopters that paid a premium for EVs. They have to go back to their roots, make an EV cost effective to build and sold for a good price. They need to innovate again. Only the Chinese can build using traditional methods for a cheap price.

Otherwise they'll continue to be an Also Ran in the EV space.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kypez

I'm on a few EV pages and fly the Ford flag as best as possible. Most common comment is, I'm not going to pay that much for a Ford. My sister in Norway was thinking of selling her Model 3 for a Mach E till pricing came out. Heck, I was too till local pricing came out.

Ford missed the early adopters that paid a premium for EVs. They have to go back to their roots, make an EV cost effective to build and sold for a good price. They need to innovate again. Only the Chinese can build using traditional methods for a cheap price.

Otherwise they'll continue to be an Also Ran in the EV space.

The frustrating part is the Ford brass know better but have the split personality
where they want mass rollout of BEVs but also expect buyer to pay premium prices.

A huge dose of reality is arriving soon, Ford is not Tesla and cannot command
prices like them, the European BEV Explorer is lining up to be a white elephant
of epic proportions.

I don’t want to be down on Ford but when it comes to electric vehicles, they’re all
over the place and don’t know or don’t care about the intended customers wants and needs.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The frustrating part is the Ford brass know better but have the split personality

where they want mass rollout of BEVs but also expect buyer to pay premium prices.



A huge dose of reality is arriving soon, Ford is not Tesla and cannot command

prices like them, the European BEV Explorer is lining up to be a white elephant

of epic proportions.



I don’t want to be down on Ford but when it comes to electric vehicles, they’re all

over the place and don’t know or don’t care about the intended customers wants and needs.

Thing is, Tesla is the cheapest non Chinese brand out there. For the kit you get, you can't go past them. If Ford tried to be more like Tesla price wise it would be a step in the right direction.

[Franco Cozzo]

I'm feeling it'll last 12 months in Australia then be discontinued because Ford Australia will interpret it as Australia only wants Ranger rather than its priced so far above the odds

Ford Australia seems to think it's BMW and Mercedes these days

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'm feeling it'll last 12 months in Australia then be discontinued because Ford Australia will interpret it as Australia only wants Ranger rather than its priced so far above the odds

Like the Endura... Priced all wrong for the segment

It's fortunate the Ranger and Everest haven't suffered a similar fate. Think because most of the market is priced similarly and there is a big enough feature/size discrepancy for the cheaper competition

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kypez

Thing is, Tesla is the cheapest non Chinese brand out there. For the kit you get, you can't go past them. If Ford tried to be more like Tesla price wise it would be a step in the right direction.

We’ll see, this is where Ford is taking the p1ss on prices, they literally just convert the UK price to Aussie dollars
but if you go to US domestic prices Ford is super competitive with Tesla Y and actually USD$1,000 less.

Model Y RWD…………………...USD$43,990
Mach E Select RWD………….USD$42,995

When the more esearch oriented folks go chasing down figures like this,
it kind shows how Ford punished RHD customers for all the changes required.

Ford has to make a decision here, does it want to seriously go after those customers
or is this just a token gesture to say hey we tried and no one wanted our BEVs?
To me it shows us exactly the kind of take it or leave it disconnect ford has with customers

Anyone wanting a Mach E needs to tell their dealer to get the message back to Ford
that customers know they’re trying to rip them off and to go the F away.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by jpd80

We’ll see, this is where Ford is taking the pass on prices, they literally just convert the UK price to Aussie dollars

but if you go to US domestic prices Ford is super competitive with Tesla Y



Model Y RWD…………………...USD$43,990

Mach E Select RWD………….USD$42,995



When the more esearch oriented folks go chasing down figures like this,

it kind shows how Ford punished RHD customers for all the changes required.



Ford has to make a decision here, does it want to seriously go after those customers

or is this just a token gesture to say hey we tried and no one wanted our BEVs?

To me it shows us exactly the kind of take it or leave it disconnect ford has with customers

Yes, the Model Y went up in price recently. It used to be $40k. But even at that price point, the Model Y is beating it. The base car just has more features. Aside from the empty interior, the steering column, great semi Autonomous cruise control, no servicing, charger network, etc show that Ford can't match the price but have to be better to get a sale.

Didn't help that dealers marked up Mach E's and F150's either. Quicker Ford move to a direct to customer model and ditch the middle guy the better their bottom line will look.

Ford pricing a car at $42k will see the price to dealers be maybe 10% cheaper, maybe more. That's lost revenue for the company. With Tesla, $43k is the price Tesla sell at.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kypez

Yes, the Model Y went up in price recently. It used to be $40k. But even at that price point, the Model Y is beating it. The base car just has more features. Aside from the empty interior, the steering column, great semi Autonomous cruise control, no servicing, charger network, etc show that Ford can't match the price but have to be better to get a sale.

Didn't help that dealers marked up Mach E's and F150's either. Quicker Ford move to a direct to customer model and ditch the middle guy the better

Given Ford’s regular propensity for recalls, I wouldn’t want to ditch dealers,
these markups are not on them, this is Ford charging premium prices and not
passing on decent margins to dealers.

By the way, the reason US dealers mark up prices is because they barely get $1,000
per vehicle out of Ford, it’s really crap the way they treat them and understandable
that many try to push the envelope with desirable vehicles.

Many demonise dealers but forget they are the groups who mostly on behalf of their customers
intercede with Ford to try to get people’s vehicles fixed properly, I’ve had this above and beyond
efforts done in the past.

[jpd80]

Dealers need to go back to Ford and tell them how disadvantaged Mach E is with a $15,000 price gap.
The premium prices that European customers are prepared to pay are not comparable to USA or Australia.

[au2000]

Pretty certain if my memory is correct some on here years ago trying to tell us Ford is now pricing at a higher level cause they see their products at a higher level,
Just like on the 2nd hand market, a buyer will only pay what they think a product is worth,
It seems the electric vehicle segment is now finally seeing the results of customers realising that EVs have their place but are not a be all for everyone, battery reliability seems to also be creating issues for some buyers too in relation to risks of thermal runaway.
It’s safe to say I think that EV and ICE will both have a place for a long time yet and it’s probably why makers like Toyota have not fully jumped into the EV segment yet perhaps?

[Dr Smith]

Maybe Ford need to go back at look at Lexus's history, start cheaper and build better...then over time adjust....

[kypez]

Originally Posted by au2000

It seems the electric vehicle segment is now finally seeing the results of customers realising that EVs have their place but are not a be all for everyone, battery reliability seems to also be creating issues for some buyers too in relation to risks of thermal runaway.

It’s safe to say I think that EV and ICE will both have a place for a long time yet and it’s probably why makers like Toyota have not fully jumped into the EV segment yet perhaps?

Thermal runaway is less and less of an issue as we move away from Cobalt in batteries. LFP batteries, which 90% plus of all sales in Australia are, don't suffer thermal runaway events.

Yes and no for them to co-exist. If govts push with policies, ICE will be relegated to secondhand only.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by au2000

Pretty certain if my memory is correct some on here years ago trying to tell us Ford is now pricing at a higher level cause they see their products at a higher level,

There’s a difference between explaining what Ford’s strategy is and agreeing with it.
If it’s truly uncompetitive prices, then dealers will soon be telling Ford not to bother.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kypez

Like the Endura... Priced all wrong for the segment

It's fortunate the Ranger and Everest haven't suffered a similar fate. Think because most of the market is priced similarly and there is a big enough feature/size discrepancy for the cheaper competition

Also Ford is market leader with the Thailand Specials, it can justify its Ranger price because its priced similarly to competitors and its the best vehicle in its class, hands down. Don't interpret this as me changing my opinions on Thailand Specials, I still think they're a junk platform/vehicle at their price points.

However, when it comes to EV they've got no experience and they're marketing themselves like its a premium product when really they've got absolutely no runs on the board compared to the established market leader (Tesla).

If I was responsible for pricing at Ford Australia I'd be trying to undercut the Model Y and if they can't because of dealership network then the next thing I'd be looking at is launching our EV range through agency model only.

Ford dealerships keep their access to ICE, but with Ford EVs its ala Tesla and maybe that allows them to offer a lower price while making more money by cutting out the middle man.

Does anyone here actually enjoy the experience of buying new cars? Its such a pain in the ***, the industry has been dragging its feet refusing to create better customer experiences.