Gov't getting heavy with engine mods?

[flappist]

I had an interesting conversation recently about performance cars in general and was told by someone who is fairly reliable that as of 1/1/2006 if you modify a EURO3 car by way of exhaust/ECU/whatever gizmo and it does not continue to comply with EURO3, which it probably won't as it seems to be pretty hard to do, that you can be charged with all sorts of offences and then basicly hung, drawn and quartered then shot and buried in your now unregistered car.

This reminds me of 1977 when the first pollution crap cars appeared (XC etc).
I wonder if this will make my BA2 increase in value for a short time like the XB did.

Anyone know anything about this?

[Donut King]

Taken from the FPV press release:

As a part of the Euro III standards, all vehicles must also be fitted with a sophisticated on-board diagnostics (OBD) system that constantly monitors the emission control systems to ensure the vehicle always complies with the regulations.

The OBD is linked to the engine management system with a number of sensors that monitor the condition and performance of specific components related to controlling the emission output.

The OBD system measures the emission output through the addition of an extra oxygen sensor that monitors the operation of the catalytic converters and provides more accurate control of the air-fuel ratio. There is also as a misfire monitor that detects any changes in the acceleration of the crankshaft.

If either of the these sensors record an event that results in emissions exceeding those prescribed under the Euro III regulations, the OBD system logs the event within the ECU. If a similar event occurs within the same driving period, or if the system detects the issue when the engine is re-started, the driver is made aware of a potential issue via the engine warning light on the instrumental panel.

“The adoption of On Board Diagnostics through the Euro III regulations provides our customers with greater peace of mind that their vehicle is operating correctly at all times,” Flint adds.

“The system is completely invisible to the owner up to the point when a potential issue has been recorded. If this occurs, the owner should take the vehicle to their FPV dealership to have the event investigated.”

Seems to me like they are getting pretty serious about changes like flash tuners and other mods that have the ability to change the emissions compliance of a vehicle

[EFFalcon]

lets all go buy 1970 model cars.

[gtfpv]

i agree with flappist .i think we done well mate.

[HLC]

i can see the prices of BA/II GT's etc not dropping as low as predicted with the new model coming out.

[nugget378]

they can keep their plastic cars and pollution junk as far as im concerned ill keep the XA forever

[Kryton]

someone will find a way to still be able to modify and comply with EURO3.
its only a matter of time.

[Bluehoon]

Ford may be able to put the brakes on.

but if the aftermarket modifications can be made to meet the ADR / Euro 3 rules and regs, then there is no issues, provided you don't want a warranty....

APS will be interesting with this and the T / Phoon.......

Wait and see, time will tell...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Bluehoon

Ford may be able to put the brakes on.

but if the aftermarket modifications can be made to meet the ADR / Euro 3 rules and regs, then there is no issues, provided you don't want a warranty....

APS will be interesting with this and the T / Phoon.......

Wait and see, time will tell...

I think the aftermarket mobs will really struggle to meet euro 3.
With due respect to all concerned most of the aftermartet tuners are mechanics who have branched out and become "bolt on" specialists, they're not mechanical engineers, and most don't have millions of dollars worth of analytical equipment.
The car companies spend millions of dollars calibrating and refining their products to meet specifications, this has never been a consideration for aftermarket companies ever, it will be uncharted territory for them to have to chace KW's as well as meet a new set of goals, if anything this plays into the hands of the Car manufacturers if they choose to offer "performance" add ons because they have all the data and research testing equipment to work with first.
Ill be interested to see how this all ties in with the advertising bans and alleged 300kw limit.
The Government may very well be cleverly controlling and regulating local manufacturers as well as enthusiasts without having to say the words "supercar scare" ever again!

[Bluehoon]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I think the aftermarket mobs will really struggle to meet euro 3.
With due respect to all concerned most of the aftermartet tuners are mechanics who have branched out and become "bolt on" specialists, they're not mechanical engineers, and most don't have millions of dollars worth of analytical equipment.
The car companies spend millions of dollars calibrating and refining their products to meet specifications, this has never been a consideration for aftermarket companies ever, it will be uncharted territory for them to have to chace KW's as well as meet a new set of goals, if anything this plays into the hands of the Car manufacturers if they choose to offer "performance" add ons because they have all the data and research testing equipment to work with first.

Quite true.

Yet anything is possible.
Edit brought some amazing things to BA, hopefully it will do the same to BF.
Time will tell.
But smaller tuners will struggle.

With the right tools, anything is possible.

IMO this Euro 3 has merely slowed the process.

Supply and demand, eventually the tuners will find ways, as people will want it....

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Bluehoon

Quite true.

Yet anything is possible.
Edit brought some amazing things to BA, hopefully it will do the same to BF.
Time will tell.
But smaller tuners will struggle.

With the right tools, anything is possible.

IMO this Euro 3 has merely slowed the process.

Supply and demand, eventually the tuners will find ways, as people will want it....

Yes Edit for both the Boss and LS1 does amazing stuff but at what cost to emmissions? Currently nobody gives a toss because they don't have to or know how to make it comply, nor do owners care, as long as it makes more power and doesn't blow up!!.
Good business opportunity if you get in early, smart tuners will be investing in diagnostic equipment and gathering all the specifications relating to Euro 3 right now!!!

[Bluehoon]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Good business opportunity if you get in early, smart tuners will be investing in diagnostic equipment and gathering all the specifications relating to Euro 3 right now!!!

I reckon unichipping days will come back in for time being, as the Euro 3 stuff can be clamped down and stopped.

Edit will then kick in later on.

Then a new model will come out...

round and round the merry go round we all go....

LOL

[flappist]

All they have to do to stop this is make the tuner also criminally liable if the tuned car does not met specs. Who in their right mind would risk a huge fine by being dobbed by some pimply idiot in his fully sick doof doof.

And I agree with the XA statement above, there is just no room in the current cars for mullets and flairs and really, how do you cool off your porn star mo and lambchop sideburns without a quarterglass.....

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

lets all go buy 1970 model cars.

or a 71 model py:

[wulos]

Has anyone else bothered to look into why precisely this Euro3 standard is being pushed & by whom it is being supported by?
The Euro3 has been pushed by both the government 'AND' the major vehicle manufacturers. In a process not entirely unlike the RAWS legislation that has pretty much culled the low volume hi performance import vehicle industry overnight.
The main reason that the large manufacturers supported the earlier legislation (and a cynic may wish to believe the Euro3 as well) is to 'stabilise' and maintain a secure marketplace. In supporting legislation such as this (ie providing ecu that will record an 'out of standard spec' tuned vehicle) the major manufacturers realise that it will be increasingly difficult for after market tuning places(both hardware in the form of bolt ons, & software, tweakers, tuning chips etc) to ply their trade. Sure there will ALWAYS be people out there that will inevitably find ways of working within the legal minefield, yet still provide good solid performance products, though the way I see this Euro3 legislation, the price for playing will inevitably go up.
What I would like to see is a decent accounting for the actual BENEFIT all of this increased anti pollution legislation has actually provided. Of course all of the theretical & anectdotal evidence is openly argued about, yet where are the REAL figures? ie reduced levels of petroleum used(through increased fuel efficiency) decreased photochemical pollutants produced etc. I have not seen 1 shred of evidence as to precisely how much better off we actually are(out of the 800,000 odd vehicles sold each year, you'll see reported results on what 1-2 vehicles?)
Tis actually quite unsuprising to consider that it was emmisions legislation that killed off the 'muscle car era' in the 70's & now that power outputs seem once again to be climbing, a whole new round of emmisions legislation once again appears to be coming to the fore.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by wulos

Has anyone else bothered to look into why precisely this Euro3 standard is being pushed & by whom it is being supported by?
The Euro3 has been pushed by both the government 'AND' the major vehicle manufacturers. In a process not entirely unlike the RAWS legislation that has pretty much culled the low volume hi performance import vehicle industry overnight.
The main reason that the large manufacturers supported the earlier legislation (and a cynic may wish to believe the Euro3 as well) is to 'stabilise' and maintain a secure marketplace. In supporting legislation such as this (ie providing ecu that will record an 'out of standard spec' tuned vehicle) the major manufacturers realise that it will be increasingly difficult for after market tuning places(both hardware in the form of bolt ons, & software, tweakers, tuning chips etc) to ply their trade. Sure there will ALWAYS be people out there that will inevitably find ways of working within the legal minefield, yet still provide good solid performance products, though the way I see this Euro3 legislation, the price for playing will inevitably go up.
What I would like to see is a decent accounting for the actual BENEFIT all of this increased anti pollution legislation has actually provided. Of course all of the theretical & anectdotal evidence is openly argued about, yet where are the REAL figures? ie reduced levels of petroleum used(through increased fuel efficiency) decreased photochemical pollutants produced etc. I have not seen 1 shred of evidence as to precisely how much better off we actually are(out of the 800,000 odd vehicles sold each year, you'll see reported results on what 1-2 vehicles?)

OK,
firstly id imagine the Car manufacturers wouldn't care less about reducing the aftermarket industry, if anything they probably want it gone so they can sell exclusively their own "genuine" products.
Secondly you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that any initiative undertaken to reduce pollution is a GOOD thing as well as any initiative to make cars safer is also GOOD!
The car manufacturers HAVE to abide by the manufacturing standards imposed on them, it isn't voluntary compliance, they have no choice in it!
You make a very good point about anti pollution laws (and fuel prices) killing off the musclecar era in 1974 though, ive said it before there is an eary sence of DE-JA-VU re-occuring..
That would be my take on it!

[Bossxr8]

Maybe this has something to do with Herrods doing tests on their products to see if they are emissions compliant or not.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by flappist

All they have to do to stop this is make the tuner also criminally liable if the tuned car does not met specs. Who in their right mind would risk a huge fine by being dobbed by some pimply idiot in his fully sick doof doof.

And I agree with the XA statement above, there is just no room in the current cars for mullets and flairs and really, how do you cool off your porn star mo and lambchop sideburns without a quarterglass.....

more importantly how do you make 600hp for under 20 thousand wiyh todays models you really cant and yet they call them performance cars, I think their more like flashy family cars

[Psycho Chicken]

So? All I can see happening is Ford slogging you for parts when the ECU logs a few codes. It's not as if a copper will jump into your car with a scan tool and lock you up when the rear O2 sensor throws a code.

Post-cat O2 sensors are nothing new either.

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

lets all go buy 1970 model cars.

Pfffft, bandwagon jumper. ADR 27A? What's that?

[Bluehoon]

Interesting Wulos.

But it is a love hate relationship.......................

Always has, always will be....

It will happen, and ecu / data loggers can always be passed.

Where there is a will there is a way.

And as fas as its concerned, i don't want some logger logging what I DO TO MY CAR :the_finge.....

Privacy anyone???

Little sister is watching.......

Loggers can go get (*%(&^%*&^%$*$

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by nugget378

more importantly how do you make 600hp for under 20 thousand wiyh todays models you really cant and yet they call them performance cars, I think their more like flashy family cars

$20k in mods for 600hp (448kW) can be done. All you need is an XR6 Turbo or F6 Typhoon/Tornado.

Getting the driveline to hold together with it without eclipsing the $20k budget is another matter... :gren:

[Bluehoon]

Originally Posted by Steffo

$20k in mods for 600hp (448kW) can be done. All you need is an XR6 Turbo or F6 Typhoon/Tornado.

Getting the driveline to hold together with it without eclipsing the $20k budget is another matter... :gren:

Steffo, with regards to th car choice, yes i agree.

As for the driveline, the manuals are the go, and if you drive it properly you won't have any driveline issues.

IE smooth changes, no flat shifting (motor) etc etc.

I know one 300 rwkw XR6T with stock clutch, 30000 km's on mods and no hint if slippage.....

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by Steffo

$20k in mods for 600hp (448kW) can be done. All you need is an XR6 Turbo or F6 Typhoon/Tornado.

Getting the driveline to hold together with it without eclipsing the $20k budget is another matter... :gren:

600 hp on pump fuel and legally registered im a little sceptical,on race fuel no doubt it would do that and more but the few turbos ive seen screwed together didnt get near that on pumpgas

[Bluehoon]

Originally Posted by nugget378

600 hp on pump fuel and legally registered im a little sceptical,on race fuel no doubt it would do that and more but the few turbos ive seen screwed together didnt get near that on pumpgas

Clostest is 505....

[donkeylover]

They had better sort out that clapped out old buses that throw out more a day then 50 tuned cars.

[wulos]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

OK,
firstly id imagine the Car manufacturers wouldn't care less about reducing the aftermarket industry, if anything they probably want it gone so they can sell exclusively their own "genuine" products.
Secondly you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that any initiative undertaken to reduce pollution is a GOOD thing as well as any initiative to make cars safer is also GOOD!
The car manufacturers HAVE to abide by the manufacturing standards imposed on them, it isn't voluntary compliance, they have no choice in it!
You make a very good point about anti pollution laws (and fuel prices) killing off the musclecar era in 1974 though, ive said it before there is an eary sence of DE-JA-VU re-occuring..
That would be my take on it!

So basically with your first paragraph, you agree with the point about the major manufacturers acting to 'protect' their own interests. The LESS that aftermarket can touch the better.
The good old safety & environment wheelbarrow being pushed yet again. Obviously it is all but impossible to argue against. I DO despite what you may think otherwise believe that this is a noble quest. HOWEVER. There comes a time when people need to be realistic & weigh off the costs, v benefits gained. Look at asbestos legislation for just a second. BY LAW(yes environmental laws - part of the exact same protective legislation above) before anyone can work upon an installation with asbestos contamination can take place, all residents within 150m of the worksite need 2 days notice. The person affecting the work is required by law to comply with safety clothing provisions within the act (chem suits respirators, sealed safe room etc the whole shebang) & this includes to do something as menial as reading an eletricity meter in your main switch board.
For the amount of exposure caused in this simple yet common place task you can argue whichever way you want. At the end off the day are you prepared to foot the bill for this extra safety precautions? What will you do next time your house blows a fuse, or trips a breaker? At the end of the day the law has been broken. But how practical in the real world is this legislation? Is it truely protecting the populace & making the world a 'safer' & 'better' place to live?
You also fail to recognise that the Manufacturers DO INDEED have a MAJOR part in the drawing up of legislation & safety standards. Who ELSE has the technical expertise to know whether these laws are actually workable, or whether the larger part of industry will be able to comply. Standards Australia review all of their standards regularly(continuous improvement process) & actively seek participation from market leading manufacturers, & the drafting of ADR's, & emmisions compliance is absolutely no different. You are right in saying that it is not voluntary, however the levels are set by those manufacturers in the first place.
Apologies for the long winded post..

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by flappist

I had an interesting conversation recently about performance cars in general and was told by someone who is fairly reliable that as of 1/1/2006 if you modify a EURO3 car by way of exhaust/ECU/whatever gizmo and it does not continue to comply with EURO3, which it probably won't as it seems to be pretty hard to do, that you can be charged with all sorts of offences and then basicly hung, drawn and quartered then shot and buried in your now unregistered car.

This reminds me of 1977 when the first pollution crap cars appeared (XC etc).
I wonder if this will make my BA2 increase in value for a short time like the XB did.

Anyone know anything about this?

I just hope that both Ford and Holden start to build cars to satisfy the customer so that we have no need to modify them to the extent that we are doing now.It's great to see features like twin pipes ect are going into production.I just hope that the performance level will keep most satisfied.I don't really see a major problem as yet,as the Yanks have had very strict ADR's and they have overcome most of the issues in modifying late model vechiles.

[Black XR6]

As far as the pollution argument goes and from what I understand of it all it is all linked to the greenhouse effect and ozone layer etc. From what ive heard etc, the western nations all cutting back on pollutions wont do a thing as China dosnt comply and thus pollution just keeps pumping into the atmosphere. From what ive heard the west cracking down will do nothing to effect the global climate with regard to global warming.

That is all I have to say about that!

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by Bluehoon

IE smooth changes, no flat shifting (motor) etc etc.

I hope you are not digging up the past and still inferring that Motor magazine were flat shifting in car testing of the F6.

[smciner1]

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

lets all go buy 1970 model cars.

Already have one (tm).

:eclipsee_