Hybrids kinder to our world

NEW GENERATION green cars can save you money while being kinder to our fragile environment. Fuel-efficient vehicles that use hybrid technology can save you thousands of dollars on fuel bills and many tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions over the vehicles's life. Cars powered by hybrid technology use a combination of petrol and electricity. In Australia, there is only a limited range of this type of vehicle at the moment, but that is set to change as road users are warming to this new technology, especially since fuel prices have skyrocketed. The Toyota Prius and Honda's Civic IMA are the main offerings, with the Prius owning the best environment rating, making it the greenest car available on the market. The Prius has the lowest fuel-consumption rating of any vehicle on the Australian market, with an official figure of 4.4 litres per 100km. Toyota's Vic Johnston says: "Prius is rightfully recognised as the cleanest, most economical and most environmentally friendly car in Australia." The Civic is the first commercial application of HOnda's new petrol-electric system knows as Integrated Motor Assist (IMA). Having already sold well in Japan, Europe and the US, HOnda's eco-friendly IMA is now available in Australia. According to the website greeconsumerguide.com, the technical benefits of the IMA are clear: fewer emissions and higher fuel economy. The environmentally friendly Civic Hybrid delievers exceptional fuel economy, using a mere 5.3 litres for every 100km, and its ultra-low emissions help to reduce pollution by more than 800kg a year.

what does everyone think of the above?

[RED_EL_XR8]

XRQTOR has a green XR and I'm sure he is using more fuel than my silver one! And I think Laminges territory was up to 24L/100Km on the weekend so green is not necessarily saving fossil fuels. :evil3:

[HSE2]

Laminge has a Territory???

There is no doubt recent high prices have forced a refocus on alternative and future trends. What do people think will win the battle for the next generation fuel source or type? Some manufacturers seem to be taking a diversified approach and in doing so an each way bet.

[The Monty]

I would like to look in to one later in life, but are they able to be modified to go faster?

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by HSE2

What do people think will win the battle for the next generation fuel source or type?

I dont see any viable options at the moment.

Hybrids seem good - although ive seen tests which suggest the fuel economy is comparable with a small 4cyl diesel??

I doubt hybrids will take off, but hydrogen powered machines should. Remember hybrid cars need batteries replaced every 8 or so years apparently.

[joshf2]

bring back the dart?

[jonk]

I do have a slight prob with the prius which comprises thirty-eight Nickel-Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) cells ...

What are you meant to do with all the 'metal hydride' batteries that store the power for car when they die/malfunction/short circuit ???

Try and get normal household rechargeable batteries recycled in Oz is real hard. Apparently, a service is offered, but they get sent to one location, Canberra I think, and put in storage ... not a lot you can do with'em.

So much for eco friendly.

Although what Toyota does is anyone's guess ...

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by ArgonEF

I doubt hybrids will take off, but hydrogen powered machines should. Remember hybrid cars need batteries replaced every 8 or so years apparently.

8 years battery life, I'll believe that when I see it.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by ArgonEF

I doubt hybrids will take off, but hydrogen powered machines should. Remember hybrid cars need batteries replaced every 8 or so years apparently.

Thats right, and the battery costs about $7000. I'd rather pay a bit more for petrol over time.

The new BMW X5 was proven to be more efficient than the lexus hybrid competitor.

Hydrogen is the way to go, IMHO I believe these hybrids are a waste of money.

[MrSparkle]

Ever asked an emergency services worker how "environmentally friendly" one of these hybrids is after they've been in a major accident, and have opened up the contents of their batteries all over the place? Hmm.... !

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

Ever asked an emergency services worker how "environmentally friendly" one of these hybrids is after they've been in a major accident, and have opened up the contents of their batteries all over the place? Hmm.... !

Even intact the Toyota is a menace in this situation with 500VDC about, most competing systems are sub 100V

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

Ever asked an emergency services worker how "environmentally friendly" one of these hybrids is after they've been in a major accident, and have opened up the contents of their batteries all over the place? Hmm.... !

i dont think theres any liquid so they shouldnt be a problem, as for being electroplated... theres a link that when removed renders the batteries useless.

[NC 5ltr]

EDIT here is a better description

(paste)Today’s (Friday) Cars Guide had a very interesting article and again I still can’t believe that Ford marketing aren’t advertising their E-Gas Falcons!!!!!!
They took five cars on a 400km test loop, containing around 40% city driving, and compared their fuel consumption. The cars where:
FordTerritory duel fuel ($42,690)
Toyota Prius ($36,500)
Holden Astra ($21,990)
VW Golf diesel ($34,790)
FordTerritory petrol ($39,490)

The Territory was fitted with a $3200 Italian Tartarini duel fuel system costing $3200. The factory warranty will be voided, although they did mention that most after market people will offer their own warranty. On the test loop, they used 13.36L per 100kms. They worked out that the instillation cost would have been made up under 31,000kms. The whole trip cost them $20.38.
The next car was the Prius and it had the figures of 4.1 per 100kms, but remember that fuel is so expensive and the test cost $20.57. While the difference isn’t anything between this and the Territory, remember that the Territory handles better, has more space and you won’t need to fork out $5000 for a new battery every few years.
The Astra obtained figures of 6.7L per 100kms and the test cost $34.91.
The diesel Golf managed 7.86L per 100kms and the test cost $40.56.
And the petrol FordTerritory managed 12.4L per 100kms and the test cost $61.85.

It’s a pity they didn’t take an E-gas Falcon along for the trip or a petrol 4cyl Camry for the trip.

BTW: I believe the Territory is the new SY model with the upgraded engine, although it’ll still have the 4 speed auto

[merlin]

I don't believe Hybrids are a solution to anything except as a way of the engineers to slowly get to the ultimate goal - no petrol engine.

Their fuel usage is equivalent or worse to the 4cyl hatchback diesels (and even some petrol models) but their performance, purchase costs and maintenance all compare poorly.

When they get to the stage of no petrol engine at all and use either Hydrogen or battery power only is when an advantage will be realised and they will become popular.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by ArgonEF

I doubt hybrids will take off, but hydrogen powered machines should. Remember hybrid cars need batteries replaced every 8 or so years apparently.

This is significantly longer than current hydrogen cells last.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energy.../message/52194



Two Hundred Hours

By Bill Moore

Report One on the SAE Fuel Cell/Hydrogen Workshops in Sacramento, February 18-19th, 2004.


Two hundred hours. That's less time than most American's spend commuting to work every year. Two hundred hours translates into just 12,000 miles, or about one year's worth of driving at 60 miles per hour (105 km/hr.).

In other words, two hundred hours isn't a very remarkable number in the grand scheme of transportation milestones. Yet that's the present hours of operation (SEE SIDEBAR) on the latest generation of PEM (polymer electrode membrane) fuel cell stacks in real world driving conditions. It's also a very far cry from the thousands of hours of dependable -- if not pollution-free -- operation we expect from our internal combustion engines.

I think many of the eighty or so professionals attending the SAE Fuel Cell and Hydrogen workshops in Sacramento this week were as surprised as I was by Wolfgang Weiss' candid admission. Weiss – a native of Germany -- is the head of DaimlerChrysler's fuel cell development efforts at the California Fuel Cell Partnership. I had certainly assumed the number was significantly higher, but its seldom mentioned in popular literature or by the media. One attendee confessed to me that he thought fuel cells were getting at least 1000 hours of operation, which is still only one fifth of the Department of Energy's mid-term goal of 5,000 hours.

[big_waity]

Do these hybrids rip good skids?

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by big_waity

Do these hybrids rip good skids?

The Hybrids you are thinking of are the VS executive / HSV clubsport body kit Hybrids. Available through dubious western suburb used car yards in most capitol cities. They offer little in the way of excellence of alternative technologies.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by The Monty

I would like to look in to one later in life, but are they able to be modified to go faster?

When the petrol car came out it wasn't very fast. People were actually dying at 10mph! Look at it now. Cars are everywhere and extremely fast. Over time someone will make them faster, when interest for it is there.

Personally I will keep driving petrol powered cars until I can no longer afford it or we run out of petrol. I care very little for the environment unless it's my backyard!

[merlin]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I care very little for the environment unless it's my backyard!

Gee, I'm sure your kids will thank you for that attitude :

[gozza]

in the new motor mag they talking bout hydrogen powered rotaries.....they have a concept rx8...its an auto with 80 kw....how gay.....

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by merlin

Gee, I'm sure your kids will thank you for that attitude :

No worries there merlin, as breeding would involve actually attracting the opposite sex. There are exceptions but for the most part ignorance isn't a turn-on. :yeees:

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

There are exceptions but for the most part ignorance isn't a turn-on. :yeees:

You have obviously never been to Alabama.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by gozza

in the new motor mag they talking bout hydrogen powered rotaries.....they have a concept rx8...its an auto with 80 kw....how gay.....

Hydrogen rotaries have always been of interest.

The intake port and the combustion area are in different parts of the engine - so where a piston engine (where everything happens in the same place) is prone to pre ignition using hydrogen as the fuel (due to hot spots and low ignition point of H), a rotary overcomes this problem.

Lol - unfortunately all of mazda's prototypes crawl to a standstill as soon as pressure starts to fall in the tank :evil_laug

[jonk]

Meant to point out in my last post that Toyota have said the Prius batteries will last the life of the car.

But like I said, if they go bigtime, it's a lot to replace moneywise & where do you recycle the old one's ?

[Steffo]

Hybrid's can't save the money they claim to save. A Toyota Prius base model is $10,000 more expensive then a Corolla 1.8 base model, and the fuel savings aren't as awesome as they claim (They claim 5.0L/100km combined average for the Prius, but that's a nice fantasy they've got there).

[HSE2]

BMW V Mercedes.

Just like everything else it would be nice just for once if there was common ground and everyone was working in the one direction. The common consensus seems to be that the internal combustion engine is on the way out to be replaced with electric motors that have next to no character. Looks like we might be heading for a bit of a mess.

The "Engines" of Tomorrow
Although both believe that hydrogen is the fuel of the future, the two companies differ dramatically in their application of the fuel. BMW is convinced that the future lies with internal combustion engines powered by liquid hydrogen. Freymann claims to have built a one-cylinder supercharged direct-injection hydrogen engine that's already 125-percent more efficient than a normally aspirated gasoline equivalent.

Such an engine is a long way off, but in a couple of years, BMW will launch a bi-fuel version of the 7 Series, capable of running on hydrogen or gasoline. To service such a car, hydrogen filling stations have opened in several European cities, and California's Governor Schwarzenegger has committed to building a "hydrogen highway" in California. According to BMW's vision, we could be about to enter the age of the guilt-free V8.

Mercedes' Multhaupt thinks that such a vision is "stupid." According to the engineer, the widespread use of hydrogen internal combustion will "never, ever happen" because an internal combustion engine will always be too inefficient. "By 2030, we will have fuel-cell vehicles powered by electric motors," says Multhaupt. "The principle problems are solved, now it is only a question of cost and we are making breakthroughs all the time." The development guru believes that an onboard transformer will be used to generate the necessary hydrogen.

Freymann does accept that, "a small, 5kW fuel-cell unit could be used to power the auxiliary systems, such as the air conditioning, when the car is stationary." But he reckons that "fuel cells have a long way to go before they can become a viable, affordable means of driving the car."

[brodfloyd]

sorry to burst ur bubble guys who think that hydrogen is the clean way of the future, but hydrogen is very very expensive to produce. and very resource heavy to produce, as there is no simple, cheap and clean way to at home way to split water molicules in into H2 (hydrogen gass) and O (oxigen).
And how do they produce it??? by using electricity
how do they get electricity? by burning fossil fuels
The only "green way" to get around is to walk, because even a building a pushbike harms the environment, and u would have to walk naked because making and cleaning clothes hurts the environment too.

Basically there is no green way to do anything, so i'll stick with my 1966 Dodge plymoth 440 that gets one mile per gallon :P, and by dodge plymoth i mean honda prelude

[Iphido]

The real future is LPG. Injected LPG and CNG cars kick real ****. LPG and CNG is avalible in massive quantities and cheaper than 5 cents a litre (with out tax). Natrual gas is already piped into millions of homes! Cars can be dual fuel. Conversion cost are not massive. LPG is much cleaner than petrol.

And if it doesn't float your boat, you could run a engine off Biogas (methane etc) from decomposing material (human waste, animal waste, plant waste etc) in a simular manner.

Fords E gas is a start. I would love to see ford get a little more serious with a proper injected LPG system avalible in a varity of cars say with the six speed transmission. Injected LPG will be even more efficent, cleaner, more powerful, and combined with electronic throttle should still allow things like traction control, rev limiter, stability control etc. LPG Fairmont or Ghia would be interesting.

A Fairmont Ghia with a injected LPG dual fuel setup, sacrificing only the full sized spare for a LPG tank.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

sorry to burst ur bubble guys who think that hydrogen is the clean way of the future, but hydrogen is very very expensive to produce. and very resource heavy to produce, as there is no simple, cheap and clean way to at home way to split water molicules in into H2 (hydrogen gass) and O (oxigen).
And how do they produce it??? by using electricity
how do they get electricity? by burning fossil fuels
The only "green way" to get around is to walk, because even a building a pushbike harms the environment, and u would have to walk naked because making and cleaning clothes hurts the environment too.

Basically there is no green way to do anything, so i'll stick with my 1966 Dodge plymoth 440 that gets one mile per gallon :P, and by dodge plymoth i mean honda prelude

That’s not entirely correct.

"More than 95 percent of hydrogen produced today is by the Steam Methane Reformation (SMR) of fossil fuels such as oil, coal, and natural gas, a process that liberates massive amounts of carbon dioxide and other pollutants to the atmosphere. The SMR process provides a net energy loss of 30 to 35% when converting methane into hydrogen since a great deal of fossil energy or electrical power is required to operate the process. Hydrogen is also produced by electrolysis, a process that uses electricity to convert water into hydrogen and oxygen. Although electrolysis itself can be quite efficient in converting electricity into hydrogen, the electricity used for electrolysis is often primarily generated from fossil fuels. Therefore, traditional hydrogen production methods result in a net increase in air pollution and are highly inefficient from an energy conversion perspective.

Solar hydrogen production provides a net energy gain when converting methane into hydrogen since the energy used to drive the process is from the sun, says SHEC. Since SMR is not typically cost-effective at small to moderate production levels, SHEC's technology is particularly attractive for smaller and distributed hydrogen production. The environmental benefits of generating hydrogen using renewable energy include significant greenhouse gas reductions, and the reduction of smog precursors, acid gases, and mercury as a result of reduced local need for oil, coal, and natural gas.

To add even greater value, the process has the ability to use a renewable source of methane and carbon dioxide, such as biogas from municipal wastewater plants and landfill gas. Renewable methane generated from biomass results in no net increase of carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere when the methane is converted into hydrogen by SHEC's solar hydrogen generator.

The next generation of solar hydrogen involves direct water splitting with only water as the primary feed component. According to SHEC scientists, six of the ten steps needed for this process are already integrated into the current system."

Source: renewable energy access.

In addition to this there is a trial being conducted in the UK using wind power to make Hydrogen for London buses.

Hydrogen will be the next fuel source it’s just what form it will take.