Commodore 6's

[Wally]

Originally Posted by nitroman

You have missed the point. A straight six is fundamentally in balance, a V6 is not. A V8 is in balance however. That is why a nice V8 or straight six is silky smooth and V6's like holden's are nasty chaffcutters. :

Please explain how a V8 is in balance?

[Force6]

Originally Posted by Wally

Please explain how a V8 is in balance?

I think of it like this. v ^ v ^ is the firing order of a V8. They cancel eachother out. It ends up being -.

A V6 is like this v ^ v, which equals v. It's out of balance (tends towards down, or up) so a balance shaft is required to fix this.

An Inline six would be v ^ v ^ v ^, equalling - it's in balance.

I may be completely wrong, but that's how I think of it.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Force6

I think of it like this. v ^ v ^ is the firing order of a V8. They cancel eachother out. It ends up being -.

A V6 is like this v ^ v, which equals v. It's out of balance (tends towards down, or up) so a balance shaft is required to fix this.

An Inline six would be v ^ v ^ v ^, equalling - it's in balance.

I may be completely wrong, but that's how I think of it.

So that crossplane V8 burble has nothing to do with a heavy crankshaft, unbalanced firing and heavy damper?

[nitroman]

Originally Posted by Force6

I think of it like this. v ^ v ^ is the firing order of a V8. They cancel eachother out. It ends up being -.

A V6 is like this v ^ v, which equals v. It's out of balance (tends towards down, or up) so a balance shaft is required to fix this.

An Inline six would be v ^ v ^ v ^, equalling - it's in balance.

I may be completely wrong, but that's how I think of it.

That's a great explanation of it force 6. Obviously the car manufacturers can make engines smoother with balance shafts and better engine management, but the fundamental principles still apply. :

[Force6]

Originally Posted by nitroman

That's a great explanation of it force 6. Obviously the car manufacturers can make engines smoother with balance shafts and better engine management, but the fundamental principles still apply. :

Exactly.

Wally: I don't profess to be an expert in the vibration and balance characteristics of engines, I'm just explaining on a fundamental level.

[MITCHAY]

Jeez this car doesn't seem too "unbalanced" to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWNPyuuefbQ I'll take this "unbalanced" V6 anyday.

What is the point in arguing that without the shaft they are out of balance. If they have the shaft than what is the problem again?

[Wally]

Force6,

so you don't think that the 90° bank offset used on the V6 would be the reason for the contershaft? If a V6 was made with 60° offset would it satisfy the balance requirements and produce better power than an inline?

[Force6]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Jeez this car doesn't seem too "unbalanced" to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWNPyuuefbQ I'll take this "unbalanced" V6 anyday.

What is the point in arguing that without the shaft they are out of balance. If they have the shaft than what is the problem again?

I would think that since the invention of the V6, increases in our knowledge of the characteristics of V6 engines have lead us to a point where they may indeed have more desirable characteristics then an inline 6.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Vdouw

Ford probably is like the only car manufacture that hasn't propperly used a V6 in one of their more popular cars out of them all but thats probably easily proven wrong as i am going off memory with that satement. But yea mostly rice n holden use the V6 ... i think its more of the 'V' and the relation we make with 'V' and 'V8' oh as well as the drink that allows holden to keep it and sell it as well as rice manufactures personally i believe the I6 is the best of the 6's and the F6 proves that. ... and doesn't nissan use a I6 in the Skylines?

Do you think for the purposes of maintaining life in the people who read your posts that you could possibly use punctuation even if in the wrong places to break up your story which by the way is completely wrong because the Ford explorer is the biggest selling vehicle in America and comes complete with a V6 now chances are that the V8 option is more common because yanks like to have big things to show off but the explorer is still a very popular vehicle FULL STOP

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by nitroman

You have missed the point. A straight six is fundamentally in balance, a V6 is not. A V8 is in balance however. That is why a nice V8 or straight six is silky smooth and V6's like holden's are nasty chaffcutters. :

Ok how does that equate to the 3.0L V6 in the Toyota stable because they too are silky smooth.
The S1 buick didn't have the plastic bellmouth which meant the rear cyliders would run lean because the air got there first resulting in rough idle.
S2 onwards have the bellmouth which directs air to the middle of the intake runners providing smoother idle.
When i work on these things, i take the bellmouth out and cut it angular to maintain the smooth idle without loosing throttle response due to restriction.

[nitroman]

Geez, I'm giving up on you lot! My original point was that commodore v6 engines are rough and nasty engines. Obviously the v6 design has been popular with car manufacturers due to it's compact size, and with modern engine management, balance shafts and better design they have been able to smooth them out. But they are fixing a problem that wouldn't exist in other (V8 and straight 6) engines.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by irsa76

VQ and VG engines are Vee. RB, L and TB are inline.

Yeah they are, and compare any of those V6 engines to their Falcon counterparts (VG30 to EA sohc right thru to VQ35 and barra dohc) and you'll see the 'all I6s are smoother than V6s' argument go down the shitter.
Also theres the VW V6s (30 degree banks?) that feel and sound like like an I6, specially a BMW.

Originally Posted by smoo

Yeah they are, and compare any of those V6 engines to their Falcon counterparts (VG30 to EA sohc right thru to VQ35 and barra dohc) and you'll see the 'all I6s are smoother than V6s' argument go down the shitter.
Also theres the VW V6s (30 degree banks?) that feel and sound like like an I6, specially a BMW.

BMW use inline 6's due to there naturally balanced nature. They wont do V6's or FWD to that matter either.

60deg V6's are use because yes they are better balanced than a 90deg V6 but it's also to fit inside smaller engine bays, look at my magna, 60deg V6 transverse, it's a smooth engine, great sound and loves to rev again due to the 60deg factor.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Fast VRX

BMW use inline 6's due to there naturally balanced nature. They wont do V6's or FWD to that matter either.

Really? I was saying those narrow VWs V6s have similar characteristics to BMW I6s.

Anyway this has been posted plenty of times before and takes a bit of time to read and understand it all, but here goes again.

http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...ne/smooth1.htm

[Wally]

Originally Posted by nitroman

Geez, I'm giving up on you lot! My original point was that commodore v6 engines are rough and nasty engines. Obviously the v6 design has been popular with car manufacturers due to it's compact size, and with modern engine management, balance shafts and better design they have been able to smooth them out. But they are fixing a problem that wouldn't exist in other (V8 and straight 6) engines.

Don't give up. You might learn something from some old hands. The V8 required a lot of "fixing" to get it to run smoothish, because it's not a balanced engine at all, in fact no engine is "inherently balanced", an I6 just happens to be pretty close as does a flat four.

There are other benefits to a V6 other than compact design for FWD utilisation. Just the reduction in crankshaft reciprocating mass losses is a bonus, but in doing that the problems with a higher centre of gravity and vibration are accentuated, so adding a counter shaft is a small price to pay for the nett gains.

The implied argument that an I6 is better because a V6 has extra bits is akin to saying a two valve SOHV head is better than a DOHC because it doesn't have as many camshafts and valves.

[irsa76]

VW V5 and V6 run a 15 degree Vee to fit the engine under the bonnet of the Golf, a car designed for a 4cyl. The other V6 is from Audi, can't rememeber the angle. The narrow angle engine is not the smoothest thing around, but damm it sounds good!

[Rollin]

RWD I6 > *.* because they are **** easy to put a big turbo on and go really fast.

Everything else is ghey in comparison*

:p

*not including RWD Inline 4s because they are easy to turbo as well but have less capacity and so therefore are slightly gheyer :P**

**and I would like to make it clear that I'm NOT saying that no other engines can make power or go really fast I'm just saying that I6s are the easiest to make big power :p***

***And they look hot sitting in an engine bay with a nice intake on one side, big turbo on the other and an intercooler in front

[Ruger]

i like rollins theory by far the best in the thread.