Now this is a Toyota I WILL be buying.

[pb02]

Originally Posted by irsa76

Airbags are not required by law. It's just for passenger car to pass the crash tests they need them. The LC 70 series is a commercial which at the moment doesn't need to pass the same crash standards. As for diesels not haveing ABS, what a load of rubbish. Every Mercedes diesel passenger car for at least the last 10 has had ABS, not to mention ESP. All current VW passenger diesels have ABS. The Holden Astra diesel has ABS. Heck the current Land Cruiser wagons have ABS in the diesel.

These 70 series are built and marketed for off road or gravel road driving. For gravel roads you don't want ABS. You will actually stop faster if you can lock up the wheels and dig yourself in a little. ABS won't allow you to dig in at all.

[xdc351]

Originally Posted by pb02

These 70 series are built and marketed for off road or gravel road driving. For gravel roads you don't want ABS. You will actually stop faster if you can lock up the wheels and dig yourself in a little. ABS won't allow you to dig in at all.

Thats exactly what I was about to say. ABS on gravel roads is not benificial and I would wager that when serious offroading it would be a huge hinderance (I say wager because I've never used a 4wd equiped with ABS for offroading... and don't know a single person that has either!).

I'm surprised that they haven't made ABS and air bags an option though....

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by pb02

These 70 series are built and marketed for off road or gravel road driving. For gravel roads you don't want ABS. You will actually stop faster if you can lock up the wheels and dig yourself in a little. ABS won't allow you to dig in at all.

That is a good point, and valid... I just don't think Toyota really had that in mind with this car. I don't think they had much in mind at all. It has to be a damn cheap car to make! The arguement is that it is overpriced for what it is. I would argue that coil springs are better off-road than leaves. Leaves are good for payload, and keeping the production costs down. It's towing capacity doesnt exceed many other 4 wheel drives at 3500kg. it is no match for the F series in comfort, features or hauling ability. The ABS issue, i think switchable is bad, and i think that about passenger airbags too. 90% of people who will buy one, will drive it on a sealed road 90% of the time, which means that Toyota SHOULD choose to make ABS standard. It means that for 10% of the people who buy one, and the 10% of time on a dirt road those 10% drive it, you would have a longer time to stop in an emergency (which happens 1% of the time you drive, but for everything else (driving amongst traffic, wet weather sealed roads, oil slicks) ABS would protect you a lot more than not having ABS would protect you. I think the Toyota Tundra would be a much better truck!

[pb02]

Originally Posted by chevypower

90% of people who will buy one, will drive it on a sealed road 90% of the time, which means that Toyota SHOULD choose to make ABS standard. It means that for 10% of the people who buy one, and the 10% of time on a dirt road those 10% drive it, you would have a longer time to stop in an emergency (which happens 1% of the time you drive, but for everything else (driving amongst traffic, wet weather sealed roads, oil slicks) ABS would protect you a lot more than not having ABS would protect you. I think the Toyota Tundra would be a much better truck!

Speaking from experience, our property is 15 kms from ANY sealed road. The nearest town is 20 kms from there. We currently have a Hilux which we take into town maybe 2 or 3 times a month. All the rest of the time it's paddocks or dirt roads to pick up and drop off to neighbours. I would say 80% of our driving is NOT on sealed roads. I don't want ABS as it's no good to me, I don't want an airbag as the only things we hit are roo's.
I've had a look at one the other week at a farm show at Lardner park. To me and others in my position it's exactly what we want. Also no mining communities have sealed roads that I know of.
This is the type of market these vehicles are aimed at.

[chevypower]

So you think it's good value for money at $60,000? Given its had no money spent on engineering, equipment levels, you really are buying a new OLD truck that hasnt changed except the grille and headlights, and a half decent engine that has been restricted to put out a crappy 150kw, because the car cant be trusted with 200kw! Its buying something and being told you cant use it, otherwise the V8 diesel would have been the only good bit in the car! I think that truck as it is, should be $40,000 new at the maximum! I go back to the percentage figures i used.... and let you know 90% of the population don't live in a mining community. it's fine to want a basic car with nothing in it, but don't defend Toyota on their pricing.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by chevypower

So you think it's good value for money at $60,000? Given its had no money spent on engineering, equipment levels, you really are buying a new OLD truck that hasnt changed except the grille and headlights, and a half decent engine that has been restricted to put out a crappy 150kw, because the car cant be trusted with 200kw! Its buying something and being told you cant use it, otherwise the V8 diesel would have been the only good bit in the car! I think that truck as it is, should be $40,000 new at the maximum! I go back to the percentage figures i used.... and let you know 90% of the population don't live in a mining community. it's fine to want a basic car with nothing in it, but don't defend Toyota on their pricing.

Agreed entirely, way over priced for the equipment levels.

[irsa76]

Like I said before, the 70 series is the lowest volume Toyota available. I belive most Lexus models out sell it globaly. Also, most buyers are business buyers so may not pay retail. $60,000 retail could easily be closer to $40,000 for big business.

[Tles]

The Cruiser is a tool, a workhorse as is the Defender. I'd happily have either and when the kids are older I probably will. A loaded GXL wagon with SROIBs
It's a vehicle that can do 60% dirt and trail but still work as everyday transport like a Prado.
If you want a vehicle which will do just about every job and go anywhere then go visit Jeep and have a look at an Unlimited. If you are looking at 90% city and sealed then get a Discovery 3, 100 series, Patrol, Pajero. If you are looking for a fun family car which is capable of the occassional trip offroad - Twinpiston has a point. Do back of Bourke easy and comfy too.

The money you have to pay for a Cruiser seems a lot but it only shows how good & cheap the Territory is.

[pb02]

Originally Posted by chevypower

.... and let you know 90% of the population don't live in a mining community. it's fine to want a basic car with nothing in it, but don't defend Toyota on their pricing.

This CLEARLY isn't aimed at that 90% that your talking about. The resale is great and they go forever. Don't know where you get your figures from, as I said, most people that buy these are farmers or mining businesses. With fleet you would be looking at about $45.
It's got about 20% more torque than the previous model which to me is important, I couldn't care less about how many KW it has.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by pb02

This CLEARLY isn't aimed at that 90% that your talking about. The resale is great and they go forever. Don't know where you get your figures from, as I said, most people that buy these are farmers or mining businesses. With fleet you would be looking at about $45.
It's got about 20% more torque than the previous model which to me is important, I couldn't care less about how many KW it has.

ok, put it this way... The Toyota 2.2L D4D diesel 4 cyl (T180) - used in the next Corolla, Auris, Rav 4, Avensis and Kluger overseas, has 130kw/400Nm (from an engine less than half the size of the one in the 70 series) 430Nm from a 4.5L V8 diesel is PATHETIC!!!!!! That's because it has been DETUNED cos the truck cant handle the engines potential! Why? because it is not as good as an F250 on road, for towing, for comfort, for looks, for payload or performance - and is a similar price) If it has 170kw/600Nm i would understand. But if reliability and resale are this trucks ONLY good points, and driving down your 15km dirt road (and you never have to drive it anywhere else) I would rather buy an old ute to do the job - the only difference is the odometer reading, you can buy a new odometer for less than $60,000 i am sure. Might as well buy a wheelbarrow!

[pb02]

Originally Posted by chevypower

ok, put it this way... The Toyota 2.2L D4D diesel 4 cyl (T180) - used in the next Corolla, Auris, Rav 4, Avensis and Kluger overseas, has 130kw/400Nm (from an engine less than half the size of the one in the 70 series) 430Nm from a 4.5L V8 diesel is PATHETIC!!!!!!

Don't know how you can make claims like that without even driving one.
I'll give you a real world example of how useless figures are compared to real world knowledge.

My Pursuit ute. 290 kw, 520 Nm torque. HD tow kit electric brakes. Struggles towing anything above 2T.
Parents L/Cruiser. 150 kW, 430 Nm torque. Has towed up to 3 T before and you would barely know it even has the trailer attached.

[chevypower]

that's because your gear ratios in the Falcon ute are taller, and the LC diesel has it's max torque at low-rpms with double the compression (thats the case in every diesel). I will have a drive of it, but pretty sure I won't get one... LC200 looks fantastic and would consider the Tundra for the business if it was available here. Got the Hilux 4L V6 dual cab 4X4 at the moment - thats not too bad, bit basic though, but nice .... I'm pretty sure the 70 series wont be what we're after.
Here is a link to the Lexus LX570 which shows you what that and the LC200 looks like for anyone who is interested http://www.lexus.com/fcv/lx.html?s_ocid=30193

[Outbackjack]

Too many people look at the KW and torque figures of these trucks and then decide that they know how well or badly these things go. If you want a poser 4x4 then there are lots to choose from. I want a truck that is as un-breakable as I can get it. Instead of a cabin full of drink holders, it has bash plates, factory diff lockers (front and rear) leaf sprung rear end, diff vents, snorkel, free wheeling hubs, solid front end (no IFS), no ABS, ground clearance, approach and depart angles, extra bay in the engine compartment for and extra battery, 100amp + alternator. All these things are important for a properly set up off roader. When we get ours we are planning the Gunn barrel hwy up the west coast and across the Tanami with two adults and 3 possibly only 2 kids. I was thinking of getting an old corrolla to do it in, but my wife talked me into a new truck. Wise woman and she loves the smell of new cars.

[mcnamg]

if the truck cant handle it then why do you see lots of them running around with 351 clevo's or chevs fitted and there are a couple I know of in perth that have chevy diesels in them putting out far more power than the standard engine.

Do you think maybe that the reason they limited the engine was so that all the people who buy the 200 series when it comes out with the same engine done feel bad that the agricultural version has more power than their fat 200 series

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by mcnamg

if the truck cant handle it then why do you see lots of them running around with 351 clevo's or chevs fitted and there are a couple I know of in perth that have chevy diesels in them putting out far more power than the standard engine.

Do you think maybe that the reason they limited the engine was so that all the people who buy the 200 series when it comes out with the same engine done feel bad that the agricultural version has more power than their fat 200 series

I see a few modified truck's out here, but mostly they are used in competitions. Not too many take them on great big long trips across deserts etc. And since the 200 series is looking like a 4x4 compromised vehicle (soft roader) I wouldn't consider one anyway. Another consideration with any off roader is its range on a tank of deisel. This may be a reason that the V8 deisel has been de-tuned. It will have more than enought power to do what I want.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by mcnamg

if the truck cant handle it then why do you see lots of them running around with 351 clevo's or chevs fitted and there are a couple I know of in perth that have chevy diesels in them putting out far more power than the standard engine.

Do you think maybe that the reason they limited the engine was so that all the people who buy the 200 series when it comes out with the same engine done feel bad that the agricultural version has more power than their fat 200 series

Even the old GM 6.5 turbo diesel, in it's very latest version (1998?) had 145kw/580Nm (most conversion jobs have less than this), and 350s and 351s had less torque than this in most cases. With GM now having a 2.9L diesel that puts out 550Nm, the Toyota having the size advantage can easily beat this, but it has 120Nm LESS than the 2.9! Yes there is a marketing strategy which would dictate less power and possibly torque in the ute, but THAT much less? Do you really think the 70 ute would be ok on the road will 200kw/650Nm in such a light weight ute, with crappy suspension. This truck does not stay on the road like an F250 does, it's traction in acceleration, hard braking and cornering wouldn't justify the power, and wouldnt pull up in an emergency very well. I could guarantee that when Toyota releases the same engine in the Tundra pick-up, it will have the same power and torque as the LC200, not the 70 series! That is also, a work truck! Mark my words.

Anyway, back to the original point, a truck with nothing in it shouldn't cost as much as a truck with everything in it! Even if there is a market for it.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by chevypower

Anyway, back to the original point, a truck with nothing in it shouldn't cost as much as a truck with everything in it! Even if there is a market for it.

You are missing the point. Gadgets dont make a 4x4 a good off road, long distance, work horse. They suit the ego's of the latte' set. As has been said, these are a small run product. Do you reckon that they sell as many of these as the corrolla? They are built differently over a full chasssis with a heap of extra drive line equipment. Are they worth the extra $$, yes. Because they will keep going long after your Pajero's, pathfinders, hilux, etc have long given up the fight.

If you are going to put your 70 series to work, they are worth every cent. A point lost on most city weekend warriors.

[Poetic Justice]

I think you're all missing the point big time.

As John Conomos put it, the 70 series is a work truck. It was designed for going off road and completing tasks off road. This very reason is why it does not have ABS or air bags.

You keep talking about it's ability to handle and stop on the road.... THIS IS NOT WHAT THEY ARE MARKETED FOR.

They aren't even marketed to be a registered vehicle. Purely rural and farm use is the PRIME TARGET MARKET thus you would judge the vehicle as such.

You want a work ute to carry your tools or whatever, get a Hilux workmate (single cab or dual cab) or one of the V6 or turbo diesel Hilux variants.

[chevypower]

So despite it being the same price as an F250, although it's not as big, doesnt tow as much, doesnt carry as much, probably has the same durability though, doesnt cost as much to make, doesnt peform as well, doesnt carry as many people, doesnt have anything in it - doesnt do anything as well as the F250 except go down smaller tracks, it is worth paying the same dollar just because? RIIIIGGGGHHHTTTTT OK i will fork out $60k despite it being crappy, because now i have been reminded what it has been marketed for! I have to buy according to the marketing manager of Toyota I forgot, not for what i want in a truck for my $. Where do I sign?... it's an opportunity too good to resist!
Kinda reminds me when I used to say the Hilux and Prado had a 90kw diesel and thought it was so old technology... People used the same arguments (its a Toyota, its about longevity, its not a sports car etc) but then they brought out the 120kw common rail (when everyone else had 170kw out of 3L) and nobody really complained and said "that's way too much power for a Prado!!"

[chevypower]

I should add though, in it's defense, i am in to 4 wheel driving, and if the 70 wagon is available for high $30ks-40k, and if the motor is chippable to take it to where it should be, I would probably CONSIDER it. Pitty it's not a 6 speed manual though. But I wouldnt get the truck version for our deliveries. Toyota Australia should consider that market too.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by chevypower

So despite it being the same price as an F250, although it's not as big, doesnt tow as much, doesnt carry as much, probably has the same durability though, doesnt cost as much to make, doesnt peform as well, doesnt carry as many people, doesnt have anything in it - doesnt do anything as well as the F250 except go down smaller tracks, it is worth paying the same dollar just because? RIIIIGGGGHHHTTTTT OK i will fork out $60k despite it being crappy, because now i have been reminded what it has been marketed for! I have to buy according to the marketing manager of Toyota I forgot, not for what i want in a truck for my $. Where do I sign?... it's an opportunity too good to resist!
Kinda reminds me when I used to say the Hilux and Prado had a 90kw diesel and thought it was so old technology... People used the same arguments (its a Toyota, its about longevity, its not a sports car etc) but then they brought out the 120kw common rail (when everyone else had 170kw out of 3L) and nobody really complained and said "that's way too much power for a Prado!!"

Mate we get the point... if you dont want one... dont buy one... sheesh!!

[Poetic Justice]

Driven a LC70 chevypower?

Judging by your comments about how weak/powerless the engine is I gather you haven't.

[chevypower]

No, i already said i haven't and that i will. I will give it a go, and let you know my honest thoughts.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by chevypower

- doesnt do anything as well as the F250 except go down smaller tracks,

One of the reasons that the F250 will never take off in the real outback. Too wide too heavy, too thirsty. All that HP is as usefull as tit's on a man when you are diff deep in incredibly fine soft red sand.

Go and get yourself a F250 and then try and explore Australia. You will then learn what the real value of a 70 series/defender type of vehicle. And by the way, forget about going bush in anything other than a diesel.

[irsa76]

Comparing the LC70 with the F250 is pointless. You can't buy the F250 anymore. Not to mention they are totally different vehicles.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by irsa76

Comparing the LC70 with the F250 is pointless....they are totally different vehicles.

That's the point i was making!

[Tles]

Mention of a Corolla made me think back to my old AE82 4A-GE - Toyota (Honda too) are the masters of matching lower torque and free revving engines to provide both durability and surprisingly useable acceleration over and over. This limits things like torque steer and protects the gearbox and drivetrain under full load & throttle.
Big torque isn't everything, it's a balancing act. Get the Kws right and readily usable, keep the unnecessary weight out of a just big enough vehicle, and give it enough torque to keep the engine from feeling asthmatic and she'll work a treat.
F250's are outstanding (especially with a lift and Bank's treatment).
So for that matter is the new Hilux. Offroader's though would take the old model anyday, unbreakable and better offroad, good enough on.
The new Cruiser is basically filling the traditional worktruck Hilux market because the newy has softened just enough to be a real option for so many more buyers as an RV or work ute. The new 3.0 diesel for example has more torque by far than the old and is outstanding in Prado tune, yet the old donk was better for towing. It's sort of like a 4.0 inline compared to a higher Kw 4.0 V6.

Think of the new Cruiser as being like a stock horse or even a quarter horse. While I think that way, Subaru bring back the Brumby.