Will trafffic Police keep being killed?

EDManual · 29-04-2005, 11:41 PM

I have thought about the recent events concerning police deaths, and in particular the murder and suicide of the bloke the other day.

I think that this could be the beginning of more of this type of thing, as there are many people who are at the end of their straw in regards to their own mental state, but also due to the fact that being caught for speeding can have has such devastating results for a person or family. That is, lose licence, lose job, lose house, lose family..... And with so many people out there already driving without licences, if these people get pulled up they are gonna be in bigger trouble, maybe they will try to do somthing to get away?

I can forsee more violence and the police better watch out.

And who do we blame for this? The law (Bracks) by making such trivial infringments mean so much! WHY!!!! I would not go murdering any one, and I dont know anyone that would, but I can see how someone could be put over the edge!

The bloke the other day was obviously not all there, but he was caught in the middle of the night driving safely on a coutry road doin just 15 or so over and that put him over his edge.
Was this worth the Cops life? Maybe he should have been left to drive safely home?!

SPEEDING IS NOT DANGEROUS WHERE ITS SAFE!!!! Dont care what anyone says! AS DICK JOHNSON SAYS "IF THERE IS NOTHING TO HIT, IT DOESNT MATTER HOW HARD YOU HIT IT, YOU HAVNT HIT ANYTHING"

WAKE UP BRACKS!!! I BLAME YOU!!!! YOU HAVE MADE POLICE INTO YOUR TOOLS, JUST COLLECTING MONEY AND ANNOYING NORMAL DRIVERS, NOW BLOOD IS ON YOUR HANDS!!

3Toed · 29-04-2005, 11:57 PM

I was thinking a very similar thing but wasn't game to post my thoughts.

:

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/me wonders how long this thread will last though...

Damo · 30-04-2005, 12:01 AM

I agree 100%. There was another instance yesterday in Glen Iris, not sure on the details, but a cop was stabbed (luckily he hit the cops belt)got away with injurys.

Has anyone seen the movie 'Boondock Saints', we need some saints. Wow, my post really isn't relative. I just can't see a solution.

Laminge · 30-04-2005, 12:05 AM

Though I may not agree with your reasoning and conclusion, I would want to know who is responsible for putting the police at risk by doing their job by going solo.

tickford2001 · 30-04-2005, 12:17 AM

Have we become a state of prosecution and no protection then...? :yeees:

paul7v7 · 30-04-2005, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laminge

Though I may not agree with your reasoning and conclusion, I would want to know who is responsible for putting the police at risk by doing their job by going solo.

i agree laminge, speeding fines are not the problem but the fact that they should not be patrolling alone.

EDManual · 30-04-2005, 12:37 AM

The reason I make the point about speeding, is that it is this that puts people over the edge, as the consequences are so rediculously serious. And this, I think, is more to blame for what we are seeing with violence than having single person patrols.
I guess the govt would rather than change the consequences, add more police to the patrols. Thats good in some way, but doesnt change the revenue-consequence-annoyance factor, and in so doesnt change the thoughts or actions of the perhaps violent offender.

Tornado · 30-04-2005, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul7v7

i agree laminge, speeding fines are not the problem but the fact that they should not be patrolling alone.

I agree, its just not safe patrolling on your own.
Anyone see the story "A Current Affair" ran about the street hoons,
These guys are abusing the cops and they just sit there and take it, now imagine a Cop on his own pulls over one of these cars with a few of these guys in it. Do you think they will sit there while the guy writes them a ticket.
I think not.

If you missed the story you can download it HERE(Its around 30MB)

Blue Oval Mopar Man · 30-04-2005, 11:00 AM

I am personaly , very sad that these police died on the job! , But by the same token we dont KNOW what realy happened out there! Especialy with the shooting incedents! I know some coppers can be REAL pricks when they feel like it ! Im not making excuses for the guy who committed suicide, but what went on with him in the hours or days leading up to this ! We will never know , because the media will never persue it ! I still think teh cppers do a great job, quite possibly THE HARDEST job in the world ! but there are some coppers out there who do them selves and other coppers no favours with the way they act on the job!

CAMS290 · 30-04-2005, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDManual

I have thought about the recent events concerning police deaths, and in particular the murder and suicide of the bloke the other day.

I think that this could be the beginning of more of this type of thing, as there are many people who are at the end of their straw in regards to their own mental state, but also due to the fact that being caught for speeding can have has such devastating results for a person or family. That is, lose licence, lose job, lose house, lose family..... And with so many people out there already driving without licences, if these people get pulled up they are gonna be in bigger trouble, maybe they will try to do somthing to get away?

I can forsee more violence and the police better watch out.

And who do we blame for this? The law (Bracks) by making such trivial infringments mean so much! WHY!!!! I would not go murdering any one, and I dont know anyone that would, but I can see how someone could be put over the edge!

The bloke the other day was obviously not all there, but he was caught in the middle of the night driving safely on a coutry road doin just 15 or so over and that put him over his edge.
Was this worth the Cops life? Maybe he should have been left to drive safely home?!

SPEEDING IS NOT DANGEROUS WHERE ITS SAFE!!!! Dont care what anyone says! AS DICK JOHNSON SAYS "IF THERE IS NOTHING TO HIT, IT DOESNT MATTER HOW HARD YOU HIT IT, YOU HAVNT HIT ANYTHING"

WAKE UP BRACKS!!! I BLAME YOU!!!! YOU HAVE MADE POLICE INTO YOUR TOOLS, JUST COLLECTING MONEY AND ANNOYING NORMAL DRIVERS, NOW BLOOD IS ON YOUR HANDS!!

Having known this particular policeman for over 20 years, and knowing this piece of road very well,( i drive trucks on this road every day of the week)
it is a very dangerous piece of road, the maximum speed is 90kph, there are several 50kph thru little towns, some 70kph zones but most it is 80kph.
There is hardly anywhere to pass, only the few overtaking lanes.
This is a rural, semi-rural area, not much lighting and pretty winding.
There is a pretty large drinking culture with the younger blokes up there, anf there is a high fatality rate in this area, it is one of the largest shires in outer Melbourne.
You have to ask yourself when is too much over the speed limit ? What should the cops do ?
Tony was a great bloke and a fair cop, he was doing his job....He pleaded for his life with this fukt up mental case, who obviously needed some kind of help, its a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time for Tony.

chief · 30-04-2005, 09:08 PM

Well I am going to lose my Licence. On Monday at 3:15 am, got caught going 80 in a 60 zone. Double demirits and on Green P's thats it. The cop said the plates were stolen I asked when, he said 5, 6 years ago. I have had my plates since the middle of 03 (not the TCKFRD plates). He searched the car checked engine numbers and Vin numbers for over an hour. If these plates were stolen that long ago what were the RTA doing reissuing them?What a way to spend Monday Morning.

There is such thing as Safe speeding. Just look at F1 and V8 Supercars. As long as there is nothing to hit, you know your car and are a safe driver.

XA-Coupe · 30-04-2005, 09:13 PM

I laugh at the people that really think that speed enforcement is the reason that people are killing or attacking police. It shows that unless you have done the job, you have no idea of what the job entails and the daily violence that police face. In reality, it is a miracle that more people aren't killed by police given the confrontation and violence that's almost a daily occurance.
Police have being getting murdered and killed on the job since the force was created. Why?? Because there are always people that think they are above the law and will try to avoid apprehension by murder. To date I am not aware of anyone that has ultimately got away with this. Walsh Street?? have a look at the players and have a look at how many are still living. Moorabbin?? hope they enjoy sleeping with bubba because these tough guys don't have guns or the advantage of surprise. Glenrowan ?? I believe that 'Such Is Life' covers that. It has been happening since day one.
To try to put it down to speed enforcement shows an extreme narowness of mind. That ***** didn't kill Tony Clarke because he was getting a ticket, he killed him because he was a young man having mental issues. Thousands of people get tickets but manage not to kill the policeman giving it to them. Why? because most people realise that getting a ticket is a direct consequence of their actions and as annoying as it is to get a ticket, it is just a ticket. The vast majority of people aren't stupid or disturbed enough to think that killing a policeman is the way out of their strife.

If anything, people who want to try violent confrontation as a remedy to their problems better watch out because the police are better trained and although they have puny revolvers, have proved that a 15 shot semi auto isn't needed if you shoot straight.

Some of the views expressed here are nothing new and the same tired old line in a new wrapper. I must say some of the people have surprised me and gone down a notch.

EL_futuraistic · 30-04-2005, 09:41 PM

Well done XA Coupe. All i ever seem to read of forums, not just ff is people complaining how they got done speeding, or their car defected, and then following with a post bagging the Police. If you werent doing anything against the law, the police wouldnt hassle you. If your car doesnt conform to roadworthy specs..... its illegal. Take the penalty. I have been pulled over many times for speeding, i had no urges to stab the copper. He is only doing his job, same as every one else.

I think someone wrote it in this post, it comes down to mental state. Sure speeding is a big issue, but changing the mentality of drivers is the bigger problem. And to Cheif...... mate you were doing 80 in a 60 zone, Doesnt that tell you something???? and as for your plates sure that is a RTA ****up, but the speeding only u are to blame.

Safe Motoring.

XRQTR · 01-05-2005, 12:03 AM

Ok to start with this is a touchy subject for some members as they are in the force and more than likely knew the officers involved, I will first say that this is a tragedy.

However unless the circumstances were known 100% of the events leading up to the shooting and the actual circumstances that night, who even amongst the boys on the job in here could say that it may not have been a triple fatatlity had their been a second officer on the patrol. Now I am not saying that the single patrol debate is a bad one but I am saying that a second police funeral would have been worse, if thats possible.

Also people with mental illnesses have a bad time being stigmatized, most lead regular lives and probably work with you and maybe even within the force because of the right diagnosis and medication, this does come down to a government thing but not on the revenue side, if government spent more on health issues things like this and lets not forget Port Arthur, that wasn't all that long ago folks, would never happen.

XA-Coupe · 01-05-2005, 12:16 AM

There is no guarantee that it wouldn't have been a triple fatality in two days .. that's why I have stayed away from that whole part of the debate.
You are quite correct in pointing that out, whilst having two police there definitely lessens the chance of a violent confrontation and does provide backup, it also exposes two people to the risk and as happened in Moorabbin, two people get killed instead of one so it's a double edged sword.
As for people with mental illnesses, you are also correct but I will say that way too many people with serious mental illnesses are in the community that should be in some sort of supported care rather than being treated in the community.

XRQTR · 01-05-2005, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA Coupe

As for people with mental illnesses, you are also correct but I will say that way too many people with serious mental illnesses are in the community that should be in some sort of supported care rather than being treated in the community.

This is what I meant when I said that government, and this is both state and federal, cut costs and in doing so dont take into account possible consequences of these actions. It would no doubt be put down to a percentage of such an occurance becoming a reality.

Then of course their is the 'unknown factor' , those who snap for no apparent reason, although if more education was afforded to the public early warning signs could perhaps be picked up as no one just snaps, their is always more to it.

RED_EL_XR8 · 01-05-2005, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA Coupe

..... you are also correct but I will say that way too many people with serious mental illnesses are in the community .....

Well how else do we maintain enough Game Show Hosts, bicycle couriers and telephone marketers in our community?

01-05-2005, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laminge

Though I may not agree with your reasoning and conclusion, I would want to know who is responsible for putting the police at risk by doing their job by going solo.

in NSW (going on what I have seen and heard locally) the HWP go 2 up most of the time for OH&S reasons...... In rural areas backup can easily be 15-30 minutes away, whereas in metro areas it's 5 minutes tops..

I see our traffic cops going the way of the americans...... guns drawn, hands out the window, exit the car, etc etc.

347Stroker · 01-05-2005, 08:50 AM

So does the entire problem, of speeding, poor drivers and mentally unfit drivers, and any other class you would like to add really belong to the governing body that issues the licence...like QLD transport here, Vic roads I think it is there, the RTA in NSW. Does the inadequate training of drivers, the poor state of checking of drivers capabilities, no medicals, no alertness checks, no reactive tests, would this help.
I know that it takes you four years to become say, a amotor Mechanic, to work on these cars, so the public can bring the vehicle to you for maintenance and repair, so it doesnt cause injury or harm, but half an o
hour doing a test, 20 mins in the seat of a car testing, and you are off, and can do anything you like in the car.
Is there a reason why it is so easy to become the holder of a valid licence to drive this car, that no matter how well maintained, how good its brakes or anything along those lines...no matter how good it all is, just one wrong command from the operator, and there is the possibilities of fatalaties.......but the poor kid that want to be the mechanic has taken 4 years of constant testing to be able to work on this machine.

I really believe that police are put in a terrible situaton of having to do the footwork for a governments stuff ups. The police are out there continually setting the boundaries for drivers to operate in, as forced by the "Bracks" of this country.
All in all, the police are just an employee number in the governments wages book, and are expendable.....just like all employees in large companies.
As long as the governments budget for set revenue from speeding every year, police are going to have to work under the orders from above, and show no tolerance to drivers, and you are going to get fatalities like the one fore mentioned.

I guess if there was better driver training, better continuance of training and testing to keep your licence, more incentives for doing advanced driving courses, maybe tax breaks...the problem could start to show a slow change....

RED_EL_XR8 · 01-05-2005, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devil cv8

in NSW (going on what I have seen and heard locally) the HWP go 2 up most of the time for OH&S reasons...... In rural areas backup can easily be 15-30 minutes away, whereas in metro areas it's 5 minutes tops..

I see our traffic cops going the way of the americans...... guns drawn, hands out the window, exit the car, etc etc.

Maybe! Just Perhaps, thats because our crims are going all american too, too many of our low lifes have watched too many US B grade gangsta movies and played one too many round of grand theft auto. Tune into a police scanner sometime and listen just how many of these oxygen thieves are listed with knife hand gun offences.
If as a community we ignore these problems, then the guys (average coppers) at the front line have little option but to adopt a guns drawn attitude.

EDManual · 02-05-2005, 11:09 AM

As I said, its the whacked MENTAL state of the person(not normal speeders like you or I) that makes these people the would be killer, but the speeding ticket is the trigger. And with our laws, the trigger is getting lighter and lighter. It is not taking much to push these people of unsound minds to the brink.

That is my point.

And it will keep happening.

mcflux · 02-05-2005, 12:05 PM

Cops should patrol in pairs! Even if that means that the number of police drivers on the road is halved, having them in pairs would be better for both the force and the general community:

1) For the police: Less chances of loose cannons going apeshit at a lone officer (when a 2nd officer is there too), meaning better safety for our police. They should not die on the job, no-one deserves that.
2) For the community; Less chances of a lone officer being an absolute *****, unless you get two "*****" cops together... But the chances of that are less likely than having a lone "*****" book you.
3) Imagine a ***** cop booking an NQR citizen? That's a dangerous concoction! Please note that I am not stating that the slain policeman was a *****, my condolences go out to his family.

My 2c

-Dave-

(Adding to post): Recruiting new officers should be made more attractive to help bolster police numbers, I know that saying "put cops in pairs" is too simplistic, so I suppose to make it realistic, an improved/higher profile recruiting program should be undertaken by the government to help increase police numbers. <-- even this is a little simplistic! But you see where I'm going...