Gain in speed in for 20,40 or 100kws of power?

[Stav]

What do you guys think? What sort of et's have resulted or may result in certain increases in power. Can you state your increases in power and improvements in time?
Thanks .
Stav.

[Stav]

I have found BA fords pumping out 148 rwkws putting out 15 second passes. I have seen 166 rwkw ba-f's only proven to run 14.3 thus far. I had 131 and pulled 14.7. With 141 I have pulled a few 14.5s. They only weight around 50 kgs more. What is wrong with this picture?

Some people say that it depends on setup.If the setup is changed and the car goes faster then the power delivery must have also increased. What is wrong with dynos? Why are they relied upon if the significant power difference mean so little in the real world?
You would think that an extra 25 rwkws sounds like alot but the proof so far is that they suck.

[Qwikcorty]

you have a high stall dont you?

[Yellow_Festiva]

I think the question has too many variables to be honest.

A gain of 20kw on a 1750kg car would probably be not really register on the track.

However, 20kw more in the Festiva and we are probably talking 2-3 seconds lower times.

Sorry, don't have any direct comparrisons however based on personal experience.

[Lukeyson]

extra 20kw ..... that would double the engines output in a festiva wouldnt it ?? lol : :

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Stav

Some people say that it depends on setup.If the setup is changed and the car goes faster then the power delivery must have also increased. What is wrong with dynos? Why are they relied upon if the significant power difference mean so little in the real world?
You would think that an extra 25 rwkws sounds like alot but the proof so far is that they suck.

Dynos are a tool only to measure the output of a car at the rear wheels. It is also a hell of a diagnostic tool in finding where extra power can be found. Nothing wrong with dynos if used for testing and tuning but as a measure of what a car will acheive on the 1/4 is a waste of time. If one car has more KW's, it doesnt make it faster than something with less.

As said above, to many other variables come into play including weather, tyres, total set up on suspension and what you had for lunch!

What does an extra 25kw mean? Well ........ extra power....... If it meant nothing we would all be happy driving Festivas :togo:



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[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by XR8fella

extra 20kw ..... that would double the engines output in a festiva wouldnt it ?? lol : :

Almost! Would make the 0-100 in the upper teens then. :

[EF Futura 07]

ive got a good example: (please note these are just the average times taken from various mags and net sites, these obviously differ from car to car and driver to driver. once again just an example) both cars are sedan's

Car 1 : BA xt n/a I6 auto- 182kw @5250 and 380nm@ 3250
Car 2: AU3 forte n/a I6 auto- 157kw @4900 and 357nm@ 3000

Car 1: 0-100 in 7.7 and 1/4 in 15.7
Car 2: 0-100 in 8 and 1/4 in 16

Now obviously the ba has more power and torque (25kw/23nm), both have the same gearing (3.23 diff and same btr) but the ba is heavier yet is quicker?the au makes peak torque 250rpm lower and peak power 350rpm lower. Now say the BA was 50kg heavier, if you took 50kg out of the au, would it be as quick with less power?

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by auslandau

Dynos are a tool only to measure the output of a car at the rear wheels. It is also a hell of a diagnostic tool in finding where extra power can be found. Nothing wrong with dynos if used for testing and tuning but as a measure of what a car will acheive on the 1/4 is a waste of time. If one car has more KW's, it doesnt make it faster than something with less.

As said above, to many other variables come into play including weather, tyres, total set up on suspension and what you had for lunch!

What does an extra 25kw mean? Well ........ extra power....... If it meant nothing we would all be happy driving Festivas :togo:

Must agree.
Dynos are only tools, and so are those who think a higher peak figure is everything.

Stav, stock, the car did a best of 14.873 (98 oct used). It was measured on C&V's dyno and got 155rwkw (91 oct used).
After k&n, underdrive and F6 intake, it ran 14.527 (98 oct). Temps were a little cooler as well. No dyno reading for the car with those mods.
Then, extractors, cat and zorst were fitted and measured with 98 oct on Autotech's dyno with a result of 166.8rwkw.
After the tune it got 171.8rwkw (91 oct) and got 14.303 (98 oct).
Some dyno's need to be dyno'ed.


As for the picture, its only a few things really. Power, weight and good take off (set-up) will determine time (Aerodynamics would help as well no doubt). Many other variables would effect results, but they're not in your hands, such as weather and track condition.
Kinetic energy = half the mass x velocity squared. What that shows is power produced (when divided by time), but as we all know, its the 60' times that are crucial for a good et... which takes us back to setup.

[Stav]

I think dynos should show average power/torque and peak power /torque. A stall converter should be translating to more power down low ..so I believe. An average power figure should confirm this and then it will be more realistic in its indication of real world performance.

Don't get me wrong with my following comment either.But I have seen dozens of ba xr8s and xr6t's standard not running better than 15's to flat 14s. These cars put out up to 50+ rwkws more than my car. Why is it that a vast number of those are not pulling better times? Is it that their average power is the same as a worked na six with a stallie? I think that it is the case. Whilst these particular cars I have seen put out more peak power it seems that we can match or beat their average power and quite possibly be as quick if not quicker on averages. I just cant see why dynos cannot include average power?
Dynos do have their place in tuning to safely find problems with cars without doing ridiculous road speeds. It does seem to me that between 10 to 50 more rwkws it doesnt seem to be that they will be necessarily quicker.

just my take on things.

Dynos do need to be dynoed.

[Stav]

Originally Posted by EF Futura 07

ive got a good example: (please note these are just the average times taken from various mags and net sites, these obviously differ from car to car and driver to driver. once again just an example) both cars are sedan's

Car 1 : BA xt n/a I6 auto- 182kw @5250 and 380nm@ 3250
Car 2: AU3 forte n/a I6 auto- 157kw @4900 and 357nm@ 3000

Car 1: 0-100 in 7.7 and 1/4 in 15.7
Car 2: 0-100 in 8 and 1/4 in 16

Now obviously the ba has more power and torque (25kw/23nm), both have the same gearing (3.23 diff and same btr) but the ba is heavier yet is quicker?the au makes peak torque 250rpm lower and peak power 350rpm lower. Now say the BA was 50kg heavier, if you took 50kg out of the au, would it be as quick with less power?

Thats a very good point..very good.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Stav

I have found BA fords pumping out 148 rwkws putting out 15 second passes. I have seen 166 rwkw ba-f's only proven to run 14.3 thus far. I had 131 and pulled 14.7. With 141 I have pulled a few 14.5s. They only weight around 50 kgs more. What is wrong with this picture?

Some people say that it depends on setup.If the setup is changed and the car goes faster then the power delivery must have also increased. What is wrong with dynos? Why are they relied upon if the significant power difference mean so little in the real world?
You would think that an extra 25 rwkws sounds like alot but the proof so far is that they suck.

When you say power delivery, you're talking about how power is put to the ground???
If a car has better gearing for arguments sake, the power will stay the same. Tractive effort (or torque at the wheels) will increase and give better acceleration (and better mph as well). Power stays the same, but the dyno will read a better tractive effort (when using same gear but different final drive).

Using the above example, if said BF had same gearing and stallie as the wagon, what et do you estimate? 13.7?

[waggaclint]

Originally Posted by Stav

I have seen dozens of ba xr8s and xr6t's standard not running better than 15's to flat 14s. These cars put out up to 50+ rwkws more than my car. Why is it that a vast number of those are not pulling better times? .

maybe you can put that down to the driver???? or maybe more wheel spin etc set-up is the key i reackon they is no point havn say 300rwkw if the car just wheels spins in every gear is it....

[Stav]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

When you say power delivery, you're talking about how power is put to the ground???
If a car has better gearing for arguments sake, the power will stay the same. Tractive effort (or torque at the wheels) will increase and give better acceleration (and better mph as well). Power stays the same, but the dyno will read a better tractive effort (when using same gear but different final drive).

Using the above example, if said BF had same gearing and stallie as the wagon, what et do you estimate? 13.7?

With a stallie the power illustrated in kilometers on a dyno should show a fatter power curve and torque at the back wheels. Power is a calculation from torque and rpm.
A guy who claims he has gained more torque and his dyno sheet does not show the power increase at any point but an increase in torque then it is my belief that the dyno and operator are wrong. An increase of torque does increase power close to that speed. It is correlated.

Your car with a 2500 stallie with a current flat 14.3 at 98 mph should reduce your 60 footer .2 to .3 ..This alone should get you a flat 14 second pass.It will depend on a few things.Firstly you need a good quality stall converter.Secondly will really depend on how proficient the tune is completed on your car. The tuner can make or break the car. If the dyno is honest then it will show a better power/torque curve down low and maximum retention of upper range power as well. My stall converter lost 2 rwkws on the same dyno at the time.

[Bent8]

Okay picture this guys, my car has a power/weight ratio of about 185kW/tonne...in other words it's like taking a Fiesta and dropping a 4.0L I6 in the back!!

Now which do you think would be faster down the 400m run, I reckon the Fiesta would because a lighter car will always accelerate quicker than a heavier car.

Take for eg the Ferrari F430 Scuderia (281kW/tonne) vs the Ferrari Enzo (360kW/tonne), you'd expect the Enzo to be faster yet they have identical acceleration and lap times.

Of course you have gearing and driver skill which makes a difference also...but what I'm saying is you'd be better off shedding weight while adding power to really see an improvement in your times because it's an exponentual effect, the heavier the car, the better power/weight ratio you need to get faster times...my 2c worth.