GM Loses Record $4.5 Billion; Announces 12 Plant Closings

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by marcosambrose

Thankyou mate, many australians believe that falcodores are great value, if you goto europe you get cars with more fruit and a better driving experience for less... you might not get massive engines but its not always about how big your balls are... its how good they feel!

Really? Where?

Base model Mondeo with a 1.6L costs AUD$36k in the UK.
Base model 1.4L Focus is $27k
BMW 530 is $80k.

BMW 530 in Germany is $70k

No where in the World can you get a large RWD five seat sedan for the value we get it. Let alone one with a Turbo or large V8.

[ECOJET]

Originally Posted by chich

Thank the Government's tariffs for the European price tags. If it wasn't for the clowns in Canberra pricing the decent cars out of the reach of your average battler, the Australian automotive industry would've been dead many many moons ago.

umm i think the tarrif is something like 15% on passenger vehicles, even lower on suv's ???
nothing major.. their RRP's are still rediculous and not in the same league as an aussie offering. 7 series, audi A4's e.t.c nice but 120-150k price tags that doesn't have a big place in the aussie car market. People want nice torquey engines and RWD.
Dont get me wrong, i love Audi's and certain beemas.. but i would never buy one unless i literally had money to burn.
Plus locality is nice, can go to any local wrecker or buy the parts made right here in australia, have some pride.

[JAZSXY]

Who owns who...click and see.

http://tides.ws/wp-content/uploads/i...Owns%20Who.jpg

[XAGSV8]

marcosambrose and chich here is a forum you should visit http://www.eurocarworld.com/ as it might be more up your alley (how did you stray to a FORD Forum with crappy Aussie built cars?).

Back to topic. It is sad to see this happening to GM and Ford but part of the problem in the past has been management and the unions in America. If these two companies go under everybody will lose out.

[chich]

Originally Posted by ECOJET

umm i think the tarrif is something like 15% on passenger vehicles, even lower on suv's ???
nothing major.. their RRP's are still rediculous and not in the same league as an aussie offering. 7 series, audi A4's e.t.c nice but 120-150k price tags that doesn't have a big place in the aussie car market.

People are buying them (at an increasing rate) so obviously they do have a place in the market.

Originally Posted by ECOJET

People want nice torquey engines and RWD.

Yeah, no worries. I love torquey & power engines as well but the sales figures numbers don't lie. Toyota - the king of FWD & gutless engines - has 22% market share in Australia. Think about that for a minute or two.

Like it or not, we petrol heads are a minority..

Originally Posted by ECOJET

Dont get me wrong, i love Audi's and certain beemas.. but i would never buy one unless i literally had money to burn. Plus locality is nice, can go to any local wrecker or buy the parts made right here in australia, have some pride.

You probably wouldn't buy one but many other people would.

Pride isn't about forking out your hard earned on an inferior product... its about aiming higher and doing things better. Also, whats this about locally made parts... the BA/BF's ZF 6 speed comes from Germany. The glass come Taiwan. Let not even mention where the majority of parts will come from on the Orion..

[chich]

Originally Posted by XAGSV8

marcosambrose and chich here is a forum you should visit http://www.eurocarworld.com/ as it might be more up your alley (how did you stray to a FORD Forum with crappy Aussie built cars?)

My apologies for presenting a different viewpoint for discussion. :

This narrow-mindedness is the exact reason why it took Ford & Holden the better part of a decade to lift their game and start producing half-decent cars.

[ClevlndStemer]

Originally Posted by ECOJET

Plus locality is nice, can go to any local wrecker or buy the parts made right here in australia, have some pride.

Pride? When you spend 40K large ones on something you want to make sure you get value for $$, that includes quality and reliability. Who gives a toss where it comes from, in the end it still will hurt your back pocket when things go wrong, even if it is local. Personally after having some "pride" and owning a local lump, i would never own another aussie built car. I would rather spend the extra on Japanese or Euro. I think others are thinking the same thing, sales are showing it. People are fed up with the crap that is dished out here.

I personally wouldn't want to see them fail or shut up shop here, not only does it affect the workers but other workers in other organisations who supply parts or services to the Ford/GMH/Toyota, etc. However until Ford and GM realise the error of their ways and do something about it they will continue down the spiral of failure. Good riddance.

[XAGSV8]

Originally Posted by chich

My apologies for presenting a different viewpoint for discussion. :

This narrow-mindedness is the exact reason why it took Ford & Holden the better part of a decade to lift their game and start producing half-decent cars.

Not just refering to this thread. Here are some examples.

Originally Posted by chich

I wouldn't buy another one. Poor quality, poor after-sales service, poor reliability and attrocious resale. The game's up for Aussie manufaturers... Japanese & European imports are better and in the long run, cheaper.

Originally Posted by chich

I agree 110%. Yes they may be the last of the true Australian performance cars but at the end of the day a Phase III is just an over valued 36yo Falcon. Bring on a Series 1 996 GT3 or 993 Turbo :

Originally Posted by chich

All i'm saying is that Japanese and European manufacturers address quality and realiability issues and learn from their mistakes, they don't sweep them under the carpet a-la Ford style.

[the_judge]

Going off topic, but heres a bit on the new topic??

It will remain for ever.

A key ingredient hard-wired into peoples brains.

Longevity=better value.

You can be fooled by looks and "ingredients", which can sometimes even make up for a low-quality product, but in the end, 9 times out of 10, people get really angry when they discover their product was not built to last, no matter how good it looks.

If you take a look at the BA and to a lesser extent the BF, you will see a whole host of things that could have been made so much better, and actually when you look at each individually you wonder WHY ON EARTH those things were not done.


Classic examples - a decent transmission cooler on the BA. Sheesh ford, you must have known the transmissions would fry, and for 100 bucks extra we could avoid a transmission rebuild at in many cases near 150,000.

Radiators in BA and one of the greatest engenerring bungles ever....the plastic bits (bottle in radiator) near the really HOT BITS...

BA breaks. If they are not premium dont count on them stopping you well, or warping your rotors every 10,000k's. I think technically ford - thats DEFECTIVE EQUIPMENT- AND I hope someone gets you in court over it.

The japanese are all about techno gadgets, and they rarely implement them into their cars unless they really work well....

The Europeans often come with a view about using only tried and tested quality designs. Advanced simplicity.

Ford and Holden are learning. But its a thick head they have. I think its a case of overcoming years of setting up operations to perform dodgy work (i.e factories and proceedures that promote mediocre things rather than exceptional)....they seem to becoming replaced.



The BA is a pretty good car, and I am honestly impressed with it. But you see, the MERE fact that I am impressed with it could lead ford to believe i am completely happy because they see me buying their products.

Well I am not completely happy and their is room for improvement.

Luckily, we are gifted with a company who seem to want (or need to) make the next Falcon the best ever Australian built car.

Its this competition that I am glad to see moreso than anything. People must return to a view of longevity rather than "wow" factor. I dont want a four speed transmission that barely cuts it, that can't be stressed.

I want what Mercedes were doing for so long (before they realised their standards were too high compared to others and would lose nothing by lowering their standards)....that is, they over-engineered their vehicles.

So you could overstress them and have them still last.

Even then you find yourself in a difficult position because you get what you pay for in this life people....the Falcon is a 35K car. Its built to a budget.

I guess what I want to see is advanced simplicity. I want a car that works for a long time.

What I dont get with Ford and Holden is this:

people - other people - have already made cars that are RWD sedans that perform better and ride better and are more economical than holdens and fords.....ITS ALREADY BEEN DONE!!??

I DONT GET WHY THEY DONT JUST DO WHAT THOSE COMPANIES DID AND TAILOR IT TO THEIR CARS. Yet this seems to be happening more and more....holden looking at bmw, etc.....

Sometimes you are better off going and buying an old mercedes for 20K. A 1980 model merc performs pretty damn good, and have 180kw engines and fine handling. Still going strong, so Holden and Ford, why do we need new falcons?

Why has it taken ford near 30 years to catch up.

The two companies are not in the same league and dont share the same philosophy and the value of their products are wildly different.

Put simply.....you get what you pay for.

But one important thing that manufactures know they can overlook (but dont take pride in surely) is the longevity rule.

Bring it back with the orion.

[the_judge]

But i bet if i went to a ford falcon marketing meeting they would tell me "Top quality is not the reason why people buy our cars. Research shows a certain level of quality is needed and this need is increasing, however quality itself is not what parts people with their money."

And thats the problem.

We dont have to sell the cars. And new IRS and stuff like that sells. Bodykits sell the XR's and their sport image....who gives a flying fig if the 4 speed transmission in the BA fries, because its going to be a lot of fun looking "that good" in an XR. And thats worth 40K.

We know the deal. But now we know it, we'll want more.


And ford, the no1 reason people dont buy fords made in oz....fuel and quality control.

theres your increased in market share.

turn car into sports vehicle at push of button in orion...seriously....

BIG THING, or the push of the gear stick should do more than it already does. should change more things. In keeping with: enhancing both modes,,,,sport more sporty and normal more economical. And a way in which to manually alter these modes to your desire (hence the sports button to mod the mode)

[ebxr8240]

One issue is they have NOT had a mid sized car for some time!!!
The Focus is just under mid sized IMO...
We NEED Mondeo sized cars asap...
Yes the Koreans are killing this market price wise..
But simply not having a model in this segment imo is bad....

[marcosambrose]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

One issue is they have NOT had a mid sized car for some time!!!
The Focus is just under mid sized IMO...
We NEED Mondeo sized cars asap...
Yes the Koreans are killing this market price wise..
But simply not having a model in this segment imo is bad....

Im not sure if you dont have a Tv, radio or a newspaper from the past 2 months but the Mondeo has been advertised out of its a*se.

Bout time Ford pulled the thumb out and looked into the future for once.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by the_judge

But i bet if i went to a ford falcon marketing meeting they would tell me "Top quality is not the reason why people buy our cars. Research shows a certain level of quality is needed and this need is increasing, however quality itself is not what parts people with their money."

We keep getting told in the auto press that the "sporty models" are what sell and make a dollar for Ford and Holden. Thing is for the average punter these models are not cheap and there is an expectation on build quality and customer service - neither of which is met on most occassions. Customer leaves and buys import. I know I did.

Now if Ford could wake up to the fact that giving a @#@# about me as a customer IS important and getting rid of the deadwood in the dealer network IS a good idea and no deadwood doesn't just mean unit sales, but rather, how satisfied the customers are with them. If they sell a huge number of cars and make a lot of people unhappy - get rid of them. They will bring you down long term Ford, if you don't.

At the factory they can start by screwing a car together so I don't have yet another warranty claim. And for all those that never had a claim, your turn is coming, because I no longer buy your duds for you. ;)

Do all that and well they might have a chance.

Thing is Ford doesn't have another thirty years to get this all happening - try something like five. Mondeo, Focus etc won't save them unless they learn to save themselves and build better cars and sell them through better dealers. Nothing else will ultimately save them. Customer satisfaction must become the priority over everything else.

Dan

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by marcosambrose

Im not sure if you dont have a Tv, radio or a newspaper from the past 2 months but the Mondeo has been advertised out of its a*se.

Bout time Ford pulled the thumb out and looked into the future for once.

Yea what about the last few years before that !!!
Price wise they couldn't compete so left...
N.Z has had Mondeo all the time...