Ford Announces Focus Pricing - Page 2

zetec · 31-05-2005, 12:24 AM

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...341#post177341

And YES it will be my own MkI, I need to put some highway k's on it so I can claim to get more k's out of a set of tyres lol.... even though that's cheating. In all honesty, I need to get k'd up annually for FBT so I'm happy to drive, plus it hopefully means I can attend a cruise with you young guns.

Teki04 · 31-05-2005, 12:27 AM

WHOA! awesome.... going to love to see this lil beast! And im sure the fiesta will put it through its paces... BUT NO SPEEDING, im over that! hahaha

lincoln · 31-05-2005, 09:25 AM

I'd like to see someone pull up a non ABS car in the wet better than an ABS equipped car.
I'd like to see someone pull up a non ABs car in the dry and steer around the accident better than the ABS equipped car.
I've experienced ABS on a track, I don't see any issue with it. I'd suggest you download the Fifth Gear episode from this past season on the latest Bosch systems on a Jag X Type testing in Finland and then tell me that you can do better than ABS. Then tell me you can do better than the VDC systems they've got now.

In the end, though, electronic systems are only as good as their calibration. Some can be quite a lot more intrusive than others. Recent Fords have exceptional balance with their systems.... even on the dirt roads I've "tested" my ST on.

Also, the latest ABS has EBD and EBA. The EBA would be contirbuting more to what Matt is describing as better emergency braking than the EBD, IMO. Unless, I'm wrong and the Focus doesn't have EBA. I'd be surprised if Bosch would sell ABS without it to a manufacturer.

The Stylist · 31-05-2005, 09:43 AM

Side airbags for the LX and above - but does this include curtain airbags, which are standard in europe?

zetec · 31-05-2005, 10:47 PM

I'll second the support for the calibration of the VDC on the Focus, it's very well balanced unlike many hamfisted systems nowadays.

Not sure about EBA, but if by that you mean holding the brake pedal down for you to overcome the ABS-pulse "lift-off" by untrained drivers, the Focus definitely does NOT have it, at least not the MkI.

Side Curtains - Not available on the MkII, I believe the South African plant didn't have the capacity or the option, although Ford Australia asked for them.

Teki04 · 31-05-2005, 11:04 PM

EBA is electronic brake assist. From what i have read it recognises an emergency situation and applies maximum braking power... Ie the when you push all the way down (to where it is harder to push further) the system recognises the emergency and attempts to slow the car down the fastest possible way

lincoln · 01-06-2005, 02:36 AM

Yep, EBA detects a rapid hard braking effort and assumes you're in trouble and applies maximum braking for you. I highly doubt you'd feel it through the pedal. I'd be surprised if it isn't in the new Focus.

Re: calibration, that's the key, the system isn't the problem. Just look at F1 and how well traction control is working for them. They don't go out there with the same settings for every track, they adjust it every time. The system is only as good as it's calibration. You can have ABS, VDC, EBA calibrated very well or very badly. I've driven cars on dirt roads with Euro calibrated ABS and it's downright scary... that's when you start using the handbrake! Most ABS equipped cars have progressed significantly since the bad old days.

lincoln · 01-06-2005, 02:46 AM

A quick surf found that EBA as included as part of the ESP - Stability control system in the UK... I'd be surprised if they ommitted EBA with the ESP option.

melbzetec · 01-06-2005, 08:52 AM

Happy Birthday for yesterday Teki

Timmeh · 01-06-2005, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lincoln

I'd like to see someone pull up a non ABS car in the wet better than an ABS equipped car.
I'd like to see someone pull up a non ABs car in the dry and steer around the accident better than the ABS equipped car.
I've experienced ABS on a track, I don't see any issue with it. I'd suggest you download the Fifth Gear episode from this past season on the latest Bosch systems on a Jag X Type testing in Finland and then tell me that you can do better than ABS. Then tell me you can do better than the VDC systems they've got now.

In the end, though, electronic systems are only as good as their calibration. Some can be quite a lot more intrusive than others. Recent Fords have exceptional balance with their systems.... even on the dirt roads I've "tested" my ST on.

Also, the latest ABS has EBD and EBA. The EBA would be contirbuting more to what Matt is describing as better emergency braking than the EBD, IMO. Unless, I'm wrong and the Focus doesn't have EBA. I'd be surprised if Bosch would sell ABS without it to a manufacturer.

I know you like to think you're 100% right in 100% of all cases relating to ABS, but you're not. Look at the BMW M Coupe that nearly took the life of its driver at the top of Bathurst during the 24hr.

The fundamental idea of how a sand trap works is the buildup of sand in front of the tyres. However, the ABS never let the driver get the wheels locked to start the buildup of the sand, the wheels simply kept rolling, effectively having no braking as the ABS released the brakes everytime the wheels locked.

The driver was bloody lucky to be alive, whereas its possible the car might not have even hit the wall at all. We even had a talk to the team who admitted the ABS system could have cost the driver his life.

So, as long as you're on the black stuff, sure, ABS is good, it's idiot proof, but there are other circumstances where it can take your life.

I stand by my choice, you have yours, and life goes on. And by the way, I have all the Top Gear and Fifth Gear episodes and I know how good ABS is in most circumstances. Don't think I would be posting such opinions with no knowledge at all, enough people do that on the forums as it is without me adding to it.

Tim

chevaps · 01-06-2005, 03:03 PM

Im with Tim on this one. I may be biased because i dun have ABS, but ABS is there to prevent lock up thus giving more steering response under maximal braking, not neccessarily to stop quicker. However, even with near misses, especially in the wet, i am yet to have an accident that is my fault.

Driver training courses teach you to brake hard in non ABS cars with the same outcome, to avoid collisions etc. You just gotta adjust how you drive (ie, brake hard, lift off the brake, steer away, brake hard again). You still have to steer away in ABS cars, otherwise you can still plough straight on ahead. You cant just assume you will stop in time without hitting something in front.

I havent taken an advanced driving course, its on my to do list, but i feel that i have a good base to begin with anyway and thus far its worked. If a car doesnt have ABS, you will get a feel for the limits after many hours behind the wheel. Even forcing a lock up on an open road will help.

When buying my car, all we could afford was the base model, but could afford a safety pack and yes, i would have liked the ABS. We couldnt get a safety pack, but thats life. Im still here, i know i have sublime control of the car in the worst of times, through many stupid ventures i have forced and many other stupid drivers on the road. Id feel alot safer behind the wheel knowing that i can get out of sticky situations than knowing my car has ABS and i can slam my brake without locking up.

Im sure all of yous have sufficinent experience on the road, probably more than me and all know how to get out of sticky situations and how to control the car. Even with all these high tech gizmos in the cars, hundreds if not thousands of people are still being killed on our roads, suggesting that the effectiveness of things like ABS and VDC are limited if the driver is crap. They're just there to help, not the be all and end all.

Im not attacking anyone, just look at it from 2 ends of the tunnel. I just mainly agree with what Tim has mentioned. Even with things he mentioned about ABS in previous topics and posts.

Tom

melbzetec · 01-06-2005, 03:31 PM

I can recommend that if you can do it, an advanced driving course will really open your eyes. I did the Jim Murcott course years ago, and even though I thought I was pretty good (don't we all?), I was amazed at (1) What I couldn't do, and (2) With the right guidance and mindset, what could be acheived.

My only issue is that, the difference in technique for emergency braking between ABS and non ABS is huge, and it is tricky if you hop out of one car and into another. You have to remember what you're in and what technique to apply

lincoln · 01-06-2005, 06:44 PM

Timmeh, I'm just expressing my opinion in the end, but I still fail to see how using a sandtrap on a track as an example applies to the road. Sure you have your opinion and I have mine, and I'm happy to disagree, but fleeting comments about ABS being "bad" for road cars I found astounding and responded as such.

Re: your example, I'm surprised that in a 24 hour endurance race that they left the ABS engaged. My experience with ABS on the track is that it is inconsistent and that you could manually get better laps with it off if you're a top driver. For a couple of hot laps, it's fine to stay on, but you're right, if you're going into sand or any run off, I'd prefer to not have ABS. Especially when brakes and racing slicks are being used, I can see the ABS getting a tad confused even with those changes! If you've got a track car that is spefically tuned for ABS, like a F1 car, then you can apply this system very well in those conditions.

As I said, I'm surprised to hear they left it engaged there. My comments were around the use of ABS and it's relevance to road use.

Re: fifth gear, isn't that an amazing example of the new electronics? I was gobsmacked at the stability control demonstration.

Timmeh · 01-06-2005, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lincoln

...but fleeting comments about ABS being "bad" for road cars I found astounding and responded as such..

If I have ever said they were bad for road cars, then I have mistyped myself. They are good for people like my mom who panics and slams her foot on the brake. In 99% of cases, I recommend ABS. We have it on all our family hacks. I don't doubt it's ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lincoln

Re: fifth gear, isn't that an amazing example of the new electronics? I was gobsmacked at the stability control demonstration.

Yeah, they certainly have come a long way, it's pretty good. It reminds me of the electronic flight control systems the fighter jets I work with have, who also do similarly amazing stuff.

Tim

lincoln · 01-06-2005, 07:55 PM

Yeah, it's the mum's I'm worried about! Having just become a father, I'll be buying a new car with as much safety kit in there as possible to protect my pride and joy

I'd also like other drivers to have ABS so they don't hit me and my baby. Self preservation you see

:P

So happy the Focus is based on the Volvo platform and got a 5 star in Euro NCAP. I'm keen to see what the options list comes with, as some of the features in the Volvo would be great to see in the Focus. Things like integrated child booster seats which you can get on the Golfs in Europe would be cool

Timmeh · 01-06-2005, 07:59 PM

The Magna which bodyslammed our Honda Accord today could have had ABS, although admittedly not much was going to stop her at the speed she was going. Poor Honda.

I agree with you in wanting other people to have as many driving aids as possible to make the road a safer place. Safety of the Focus is one reason I like it, both in crash testing and how sure footed the car is in the wet.

It was one reason we replaced our KH Laser with the Focus, peace of mind having the family in something sure footed in all conditions. I assume the new Focus goes one step further, lets hope it gets the sales up to reflect its quality.

Tim

Teki04 · 01-06-2005, 08:00 PM

Damn, any pics of this damage? was it big?

Timmeh · 01-06-2005, 08:32 PM

It's not that bad, the car did well to bring the Magna to a halt. Knowing Honda, it will be expensive. I know not everyone likes the US style body Accord over the Euro, but this lady goes too far!

All occupants were ok.

Tim

lincoln · 01-06-2005, 08:44 PM

Yeah, problem is most people still freeze and slam that brake, that'll help you pull up a bit better, but you still need to steer around the obstacle. Oh well, we can lead a horse to water...

Glad to hear you're all OK.

The advances in car safety in the last generation of cars is amazing. Look at the difference between the last Renault Megane and the new one, 3 stars versus 5 stars now for the same money. Peugeot went from 3 to 4 with the 307, I'm sure when the 307 is facelifted it'll be a 5 star car. The Citroen Xsara went from 3 star to 5 star in one generation. Just amazing advances and we're paying less in real terms than ever before.

But crashing into a wall is only one aspect of safety and handling is certainly saved many a collision on the roads for all of us, I'm sure.

zetec · 01-06-2005, 10:23 PM

As long as car companies don't lose the plot like Lexus, who have been heavily bagged for their ability to completely unplug the driver from the world around them in road noise, feel and any control over the vehicle at all in the lates GS model. Wheels weren't too impressed... not that it would bother your average muppet Toyota driver. Sorry did I say Toyota? I meant Lexus.

lincoln · 02-06-2005, 02:58 AM

The IS is actually quite a good drive. Reports from Europe indicate the GS is quite a nice piece of kit, not up to BMW levels of handling, but on a similar level to Merc.

The Stylist · 02-06-2005, 10:45 AM

While the new Focus has a 5 star Euro NCAP safety rating, by the time the reaches our shores it could well be reduced down to 4 star rating because of Ford South Africa's dumbing down on safety equipment - i.e. curtain airbags.

I was a bit uneasy when it was said that our supply of Foci would start coming out of SA and I'm still uneasy about it - regardless of the cost savings.

lincoln · 02-06-2005, 05:58 PM

So it's going to be just as safe as the one it replaced? Oh that's a shame. Perhaps the ST will come from Germany again and get all of the kit. If the ST comes out here, of course...

lincoln · 02-06-2005, 10:14 PM

So you can get a Suzuki Swift with 8 airbags, but not a Focus? Is it really not an option on the Focus? No curtain bags at all? I'm astounded. I'm gobsmacked, actually.

zetec · 02-06-2005, 11:48 PM

No option for side curtains on the New Focus.

lincoln · 03-06-2005, 05:48 PM

Thanks Matt. Guess that explains their keen pricing then. Hopefully the ST comes out and has the full compliment. I bet Ford Australia start touting the Focus's 5 star Euro NCAP safety rating regardless.

murcod · 03-06-2005, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lincoln

So you can get a Suzuki Swift with 8 airbags, but not a Focus? Is it really not an option on the Focus? No curtain bags at all? I'm astounded. I'm gobsmacked, actually.

The base Swift for $15990 also comes with twin airbags and ABS with EBD.

Teki04 · 04-06-2005, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mondeost24

The base Swift for $15990 also comes with twin airbags and ABS with EBD.

Hence why it outsold the Ford Fiesta in its first month!!!! Ford needs to have ABS and EBD available on option for the LX separately to the Automatic transmission which includes it. And yea, bring the side and curtain airbags to the fiesta plzzzzzzz.... the 4 star rating for the Fiesta is all in the chassis.... not passive