Couldn't live with his conscience??

[TadKa]

I'm very against street racing. However I have a friend who when on his p's, he and another car were being d-heads and he ran a red. I wont go into any details but he was convicted of manslaughter. Did time got out. I know that he gets very upset and everyone knows he made a unmeasurable mistake but would anyone be happy if he had taken his life. I'd hope the answer is no.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by TadKa

I'm very against street racing. However I have a friend who when on his p's, he and another car were being d-heads and he ran a red. I wont go into any details but he was convicted of manslaughter. Did time got out. I know that he gets very upset and everyone knows he made a unmeasurable mistake but would anyone be happy if he had taken his life. I'd hope the answer is no.

The answer here is no too. Your friend showed courage in a time of crisis and faced the music. Unfortunately he now has guilt but he has served his time for what happened. People like him should be encouraged and people like him who own up to things should always be given a second chance. I'm betting that nothing could make him feel worse than his memories of the incident, and I hope he has been able to move on in some positive way with his life.

[FRDGAL]

Originally Posted by MrEL

Bullshit! It just adds to the tragedy that this whole sorry saga has turned into. Another death will not bring the old couple back.
It is bad that the whole thing happened that is for certain , but how sad is it that there is now another death to clean up. It would only be making the families of everyone feel worse again. The guy stuffed up , made a dumb decision that 95% of us have done before and now he is dead too. I live in the general area where it all has unfolded. There have been plenty of threats , witch hunts ect for these people. The last six months would have been unbearable , getting all that plus living with the guilt of what happened and charges laying over your head. Now to die on the side of the road in the bush is tragic.
It was a dumb decision he made to get involved in the race and yes he should of been punished for it. But it was also a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time for them all.

I agree with you 100%. This is not karma or justice, this is another tragedy. He made a mistake, a very costly one and everyone is quick to say he deserved it but how many here can honestly say they have not used our roads as raceways? Are you any better because you haven't caused a death or serious injury? We should all practice what we preach! It is an absolute tragedy that another life is gone. And no, I don't condone what he did in any way but people should stop being hypocrits when most yourselves do the exact same stupid things on our roads. I feel so sad for all the losses.

[ebxr8240]

I have to say and I won't be popular .. But the old couple did turn onto that road.. YES the other cars where speeding!! The trouble is they couldn't see the cars due to speed.. Being an old couple there eyesight wouldn't be too good...A side hit at almost any speed is dangerous...
Its sad story all around...I get to many accidents through my work..
I cannot understand why this one has seen so much media attention...

[RG]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

I have to say and I won't be popular .. But the old couple did turn onto that road.. YES the other cars where speeding!! The trouble is they couldn't see the cars due to speed.. Being an old couple there eyesight wouldn't be too good...A side hit at almost any speed is dangerous...
Its sad story all around...I get to many accidents through my work..
I cannot understand why this one has seen so much media attention...

I can. It is a classic sob story and will make people feel bad as they were old and seen as defenceless. A media blow up if I ever saw one. Had it of been a bloke in his mid 30's to mid 40's there would not have been anywhere near the coverage but as it was an elderly couple it is easier for the media to paint a picture of them in a good light while painting a picture of the offenders in a much worse light. It's all about circumstances and pure bad luck my friend.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

Poor guy? Try a Criminal who decided not to face the consequences of his actions and took the cowards way out.

LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE!

I am not about to condemn this man considering I have done plenty of stupid things and I am especially not going to condemn because the poor bloke is dead.

It could have happened to anybody here and considering we don't no the full circumstances it could have happened EVEN IF YOU WEREN'T STREET RACING.
I have seen plenty of old people off in their own little world while driving so who is to say it could have happened even if you were driving responsibily??

I say RIP

[ltd]

Hang on a bit, if they saw the headlights say 400 to 500 metres away then they would have thought; "plenty of time to turn", as we all have and turned accordingly. The fact is these twits were covering the distance up to three times as fast as normal so you can hardly say it was their fault. People also think that 70 and 71 is old, you've got to be joking. At that age they are already under scrutiny from the RTA and have to have almost yearly sight and other medical tests; in many cases they are more capable than younger people of various extractions who have conditions undetected.

The comment about them turning is ridiculous, they saw the cars, figured they had ample time as we all have and yet these cars covered the distance up to three times faster than normal. At nighttime depth perception is more difficult from the lack of visual markers to gauge a vehicles speed and often why the majority of serious accidents like this one occur. The drivers racing caused the accident and caused the premature death of two people through stupidity, recklessness and an utter disregard for the law. How many of you have gone around a corner that you've gone around before only to come across two people racing and after nearly hitting your car you utter the words "what idiots"? They deserve severe punishment for what they have done and should be charged with manslaughter.

Frankly, the defence of the racers is inexcusable and negligent in the extreme. The fact that some people here think its fine to race on the street and ergo jump to the defence of the perpetrators of this crime is disgusting. Passing off the act of criminality with the banal excuse of "we've all done it" is ridiculous as nobody I know has never done it, or been stupid enough to do it. Not wishing to upset anyone here but imagine your parents were killed by two troglodytes racing commodores on the road only to hear excuses like “c’mon, we’ve all done it” or “they shouldn’t have turned,” (no they should have realised that you and some other dumb son of a would be racing and made allowances for it).

Wait till tragedy like this touch your life and see if you are so forthright with suggestions such as “we’ve all done it”. Unbelievable. The investigation has just concluded which is why this man had his charge upgraded to manslaughter, and people still want to make excuses. It doesn’t mean these racers are no worse than you, it means that you are no better than them if that is your mindset. It also means that following in their behavioural pattern will more than likely end up in the same way that these people did, and for what? Bragging rights about your car? There will always be a faster car than yours so the whole racing subject is puerile.

[GORDZ]

who said that killing yourself is cowardly? if i had the balls to kill myself, i can think of one or two times i would have liked to. hypnotism is the cowardly way out :P

this bloke AFAIK isn't even the one that hit the car that the people died in. IMO guilty by association BS that police enjoy persuing is a likely addative to the reasons that this bloke topped himself. it's all just a shame... RIP all involved...

[ltd]

Originally Posted by GORDZ

who said that killing yourself is cowardly? if i had the balls to kill myself, i can think of one or two times i would have liked to. hypnotism is the cowardly way out :P

this bloke AFAIK isn't even the one that hit the car that the people died in. IMO guilty by association BS that police enjoy persuing is a likely addative to the reasons that this bloke topped himself. it's all just a shame... RIP all involved...

I never said it was cowardly but I'll go on record now and say that it is, and is also the most selfish thing someone can do. Why?
Simple, everyone here has someone in their life and the loss of a friend, son, daughter etc rapidly becomes an insurmountable obstacle in their life. To the ones closest, the grief and then the utter self contempt for not picking up on the suicidal persons calls for help stays with them until the end of their lives. So, with that in mind who has the right to inflict a lifetime of grief and suffering on a loved one/s all because it got too hard? You say it takes balls to do it, I say it takes balls not to do it.

[BlackLS]

Originally Posted by ltd

Hang on a bit, if they saw the headlights say 400 to 500 metres away then they would have thought; "plenty of time to turn", as we all have and turned accordingly. The fact is these twits were covering the distance up to three times as fast as normal so you can hardly say it was their fault. People also think that 70 and 71 is old, you've got to be joking. At that age they are already under scrutiny from the RTA and have to have almost yearly sight and other medical tests; in many cases they are more capable than younger people of various extractions who have conditions undetected.

The comment about them turning is ridiculous, they saw the cars, figured they had ample time as we all have and yet these cars covered the distance up to three times faster than normal. At nighttime depth perception is more difficult from the lack of visual markers to gauge a vehicles speed and often why the majority of serious accidents like this one occur.

Hazard perception is a requirement to be able to drive. It may be harder to tell the difference between a car doing 70 and 80 at night, but for the reported speed is certainably noticable. I'd hate to see what the old couple would do at unsignaled level crossing.

Also with your example, you say they see the cars 4-500m down the road when they decide to turn onto the road. At 160km/h they're covering 44.4.m/s. Over the lesser 400m, its means that they had 9 seconds to pull out and get some speed up, and/or for the racers to avoid them. If this was the case I doubt there would have been this accident. Its more likely that the older couple pulled out on the road when they were a shorter distance from them. Ie less than 2 seconds away, where anyone should be able to perviece that they were coming a bit quickly.

Did any of the reports say whether the older couple were intersecting the road, pulled out in front of the racers or turned into the oncoming traffic?

[ltd]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

Hazard perception is a requirement to be able to drive. It may be harder to tell the difference between a car doing 70 and 80 at night, but for the reported speed is certainably noticable. I'd hate to see what the old couple would do at unsignaled level crossing.

Also with your example, you say they see the cars 4-500m down the road when they decide to turn onto the road. At 160km/h they're covering 44.4.m/s. Over the lesser 400m, its means that they had 9 seconds to pull out and get some speed up, and/or for the racers to avoid them. If this was the case I doubt there would have been this accident. Its more likely that the older couple pulled out on the road when they were a shorter distance from them. Ie less than 2 seconds away, where anyone should be able to perviece that they were coming a bit quickly.

Did any of the reports say whether the older couple were intersecting the road, pulled out in front of the racers or turned into the oncoming traffic?

I see where you are going but the official police report denounces the elderly couple of any wrong doing. In terms of speeds as well as distances etc it is purely speculative and as such I don't know the actual intersection nor the conditions of the road such as corners etc. At any rate and the very reason these people were charged, the racers were travelling at over double the signposted limit and caused the death of two people. This is not speculative though, it is an established and published fact.

As I said in an earlier post, I think you'll find that in NSW particularly it is much harder to keep a licence after 70 and medical checks as well as sight tests and other cognitive tests are required to keep your licence after your birthday. Furthermore, it is required that every 12-24 months further tests are conducted to ensure that the elderly person can continue to drive without endangering themselves or other motorists. I know this as my father has just recently gone through it. So, I can assure that the age of this couple would have required them to undergo stringent tests to prove capacity to drive.

As for peripheral vision and depth perception, I think there you'll find that they were OK there as well as the RTA actually has a proclusion on licences for elderly people who might have trouble seeing at night.
Again, lets not make the innocent victims in this tragedy out to be the villains, they did nothing wrong and were not contributory to the crash.

[MrEL]

This is just going to go around in circles. There are only 5 people who know the DEFINATE FACTS about that night. Unfortunately 3 of those people are dead.
There is no excuse for street racing , I have never said there was. But I have the balls to admit that yes whilst it is a stupid thing to do I have done it.
Do I deserve to die? Do all the good things I have done in my life get cancelled out by a couple of stupid acts? To say it is Karma getting payback with death is pretty strong. If someone had of petrol bombed his car ect yeah I would agree that it was karma. I think the higher powers to which ultimately we are all answerable to take everything about your life into consideration.
The guy that killed himself was not involved in the accident. Yes he was racing but was well ahead of the 2 commodores when the crash occured. He did not stop. Was is because he was not aware of the accident happening behind him or did he panic and bail? Only he knows. He did hand himself into the Police station the day after when it was on the media about the smash and that the police were wanting to question the driver of the blue Mazda. He could of tried to hide cause they had no info on him but he come clean and fessed up. Makes it all the more tragic.

This has hit home with me and made me think a lot. I have been in that situation before but luckily there has never been an accident. To realise that you can be charged with these offences even though you were not involved in the accident made me sit up and take notice. You have no control in what is happening behind you but it can come back and bite you on the . Best off not doing it in the first place.
It is a tragic loss of life with this guys suicide. Hopefully his legacy will not be wasted and people will think that it could be them one day and stop racing on the streets. This even proves it to the people out there who think they can drive a bit better then they can that it might happen to them. Kinda kicks the old "it wont happen to me , i know what Im doing when I have a run" in the .

[BlackLS]

Again, lets not make the innocent victims in this tragedy out to be the villains, they did nothing wrong and were not contributory to the crash.

No of course not. Those who did wrong deserved to be punished. But imagine the public reaction where the racers were not charged?

On my red P's i was on the other side of the fence. Was pouring rain, 50km residential street, I was turning into a driveway across the street. I stated to proceed, a silver car (blended in with the rain/fog) was coming the opposite direction speeding, or at least not driving to conditions, I hit their front quater panel with a scratch down the side of their car. I was the at-fault party of the accident as not giving way > speeding.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by MrEL

This is just going to go around in circles. There are only 5 people who know the DEFINATE FACTS about that night. Unfortunately 3 of those people are dead.

Actually Police dont guess, they gather evidence, a lot can be KNOWN, not guessed from the facts. Why they were racing, who started it, fine only those racing know, but its not relevant anyway so it has no bearing on the matter. The relevant information can be known by those not involved, its how Police solve murders in which no witnesses are located. They can and often do know things ordinary citizens dont because of their training and access to information.

Originally Posted by MrEL

Do I deserve to die? Do all the good things I have done in my life get cancelled out by a couple of stupid acts? To say it is Karma getting payback with death is pretty strong. If someone had of petrol bombed his car ect yeah I would agree that it was karma. I think the higher powers to which ultimately we are all answerable to take everything about your life into consideration.

No you dont, neither did he. But theres a difference between wishing someone dead, and having little sympathy for someone who took their own life after such an incident. What I can tell, is he did feel like cr4p and that tells me he had a conscience, so yeah, its tragic, he could have been councelled and led a fruitful life.

Originally Posted by MrEL

The guy that killed himself was not involved in the accident. Yes he was racing but was well ahead of the 2 commodores when the crash occured. He did not stop. Was is because he was not aware of the accident happening behind him or did he panic and bail? Only he knows. He did hand himself into the Police station the day after when it was on the media about the smash and that the police were wanting to question the driver of the blue Mazda. He could of tried to hide cause they had no info on him but he come clean and fessed up. Makes it all the more tragic.

His actions contribute to the race in the first place. The two Commodores may have raced anyway, but that only matters if the Mazda never raced, he did, so he is part of it.

The fact he came forward may have helped him in court, but in no way removes his part in the event, thus his guilt. He took his life before this could happen. Police would know why he failed to stop when he handed himself in due to statements, if not, then he took his life before he could clear his name.

Originally Posted by MrEL

This has hit home with me and made me think a lot. I have been in that situation before but luckily there has never been an accident. To realise that you can be charged with these offences even though you were not involved in the accident made me sit up and take notice. You have no control in what is happening behind you but it can come back and bite you on the . Best off not doing it in the first place.

At least something good can from the event. Although the "best off not doing so" in the first place should result from the potential to harm innocent people, not the legal consequences. The potential to harm others is clear, has always been so and well and truly drummed home to the public.

Originally Posted by GORDZ

this bloke AFAIK isn't even the one that hit the car that the people died in. IMO guilty by association BS that police enjoy persuing is a likely addative to the reasons that this bloke topped himself. it's all just a shame... RIP all involved...

So the guy driving a get away car isnt guilty of the robbery? The driver of the car in a drive by shooting isnt guilty either?

[ltd]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

No of course not. Those who did wrong deserved to be punished. But imagine the public reaction where the racers were not charged?

On my red P's i was on the other side of the fence. Was pouring rain, 50km residential street, I was turning into a driveway across the street. I stated to proceed, a silver car (blended in with the rain/fog) was coming the opposite direction speeding, or at least not driving to conditions, I hit their front quater panel with a scratch down the side of their car. I was the at-fault party of the accident as not giving way > speeding.

Mate, I can imagine the public reaction, it would finally pull that Corey Delaney twit off the front page of the paper.

As a matter of process, the fact that the charges against these men were to be moved to vehicular manslaughter indicates that the coroners findings and police investigations have drawn to the conclusion that the elderly couple were not at fault; that is all i was trying to re-iterate.
I don't know about Karma or it catching up with anyone but the overwhelming guilt of the suicide guy must have been astounding. As a proud member of these forums I'd hate to see anything like this happen to any of the members here which is why I have been passionate in my abhorration of street racing. Trying to move on in life after being contributory in someones death is almost impossible. Thats not to debunk what I said about suicide, for example after dealing with the repercussions and grief those involved could have worked with the RTA or police to educate others about the seriousness of those few seconds and what it can mean.

[HenryV8]

IIRC the guy in the blue Mazda tuned himself in voluntarily some time after the accident. From what I can remember, the police didn't even have his registration number.

[Fev]

where does it say he killed himself though?

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

I'm sorry, but this waste of space killed two people through his actions, and then decided not to face the music. Why should we be sympathetic to him?
As depressed as i've been in the past, I *never* contemplated suicide as a way out.
Its simply the selfish, cowardly way out.

He didn't kill anyone.

[Ives]

What goes around, comes around harder.

[bingoTE50]

Maybe the guy had other issues other than the involvement in the accident.

There is a few religious quotes been offered in this thread.... something I am not keen on in a public forum....

Here is one for you ... everyone wants to go to heaven but no-one wants to die !!

courtesy of chopper read ........

[phoon]

Originally Posted by MrEL

Bullshit! It just adds to the tragedy that this whole sorry saga has turned into. Another death will not bring the old couple back.
It is bad that the whole thing happened that is for certain , but how sad is it that there is now another death to clean up. It would only be making the families of everyone feel worse again. The guy stuffed up , made a dumb decision that 95% of us have done before and now he is dead too. I live in the general area where it all has unfolded. There have been plenty of threats , witch hunts ect for these people. The last six months would have been unbearable , getting all that plus living with the guilt of what happened and charges laying over your head. Now to die on the side of the road in the bush is tragic.
It was a dumb decision he made to get involved in the race and yes he should of been punished for it. But it was also a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time for them all.

Couldnt agree more. The tragedy has now been added to. Im sure this guy has left behind grieving family and friends as well as losing his own life. Very sad tale of events all round.

[ebxr8240]

The racers are in the wrong don't get me wrong...But that intersection has a GREEN light for straight through traffic...No red turning arrow like some intersections...
I go past there often and had close call with cars cars turning, thinking they have right of way ... Green light, clear road ?? Sure ???

[Dave_au]

Looks like I'll have to be the first one to point out that the 28 year old wasn't the worst of the two charged for that incident, the other driver still faces prosecution.

Robert James Borkowski, 37, of Claremont Meadows, was refused bail over four charges relating to the deaths of Alan and Judith Howle on the Great Western Highway at St Marys in Sydney's west on Sunday.

The part-time chicken truck driver had a record of drink driving and traffic offences and only regained his licence in November last year following a long disqualification , Sydney's Central Local Court heard today.

[Shonky]

The loss of a life is tragic regardless of the circumstances. I agree that his actions were irresponsible and ultimately contributed to the death of an innocent couple, but no one deserves to die for doing something stupid. He deserved to live just as much as the elderly victims.

Please - if you have NEVER done anything stupid in your car (intentional or not) feel free to say what you like. Since no person in the world is perfect, I assume that no one will suit this category.

And for those quasi-religious types touting that divine judgement will intervene and send him into the 'down' elevator at the pearly gates, remember that most religions encourage a certain thing called 'forgiveness'.

None of us are innocent.

[GTS_300_Coupe]

Wow I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed yet.
Any topic with even a hint of controversy on these forums gets shut down before you can say "in before the lock". :

[GRIZZLY]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

The racers are in the wrong don't get me wrong...But that intersection has a GREEN light for straight through traffic...No red turning arrow like some intersections...
I go past there often and had close call with cars cars turning, thinking they have right of way ... Green light, clear road ?? Sure ???

I try not to get involved in these but your 2 statements make my blood boil.

Are you trying to say the elderly couple may have had some fault? The police did not think so. Do you know all the facts of the incident. Or are you just trying to start an argument or trying to be smart.
Lets just say these guys were racing way before these set of lights and as you know the area it was on before the Queen street lights comming down the hill. The blue car was in front by some distance and the others following. It is quite possible that the first car made it through an amber light at Charles Hackett drive and the others went through a red light.
Now the elderly couple were turning right into Charles Hackett drive and usually you move to the centre of the road here when you are making the turn and if the FIRST car raced through an amber and the light turned red they could of quite rightly thought they could move on across the intersection and complete a legal turn without seeing the other lunatics coming.
Now before you tell me you can see up the road very well lets just say there is car parked at the opposite side turning right with the lights on (it was dusk/night) shining in your eyes and being an elderly lady driving she would be sitting further down the seat than us 6ft giants so her vision of cars speeding at more than twice the limit would be hampered or even blocked and at the speeds quoted in newspapers and by eyewitnesses they would have little if any time to react.

What I would suggest to you is that before you make any comments on things like this first think someone on here may know these people as they were long term residents of the area as I am. And get some facts and try and think how could this happen and run through some sequences of events and try and work it out how it is possible for this to happen. Trying to deflect blame onto others is pathetic in the least and your first and last input to the discussion was not relevant at all.

Just to give you some more history in the area. A few years ago 3 kids were killed further up the road at the set of lights past McDonalds on the left. These kids were on their way to a party ofter a school formal and they turned right into the roads that leads to Claremont and were hit by a Commodore going in the opposite direction. They were the only 2 cars on the road and the force of the hit caused both cars to end up on the footpath and against the brick wall.
Now you would think well the car turning was in the wrong and the other driver would be ok and in the right. The answer is no. The commy driver was charged and I believe he was given 2yrs in gaol. Why? Because he was speeding and the judgement handed down said the other vehicle although also culpable was within his rights to believe that the other car should be doing the speed limit and because the commy was doing over 100kmh he was also deemed culpable.
So it makes no difference who is in the right or wrong. If your drunk or speeding YOU are in the wrong.

To the guy who took his own life I feel sorrow for both him and his family.

Sorry for the spew but as I said the comments make my blood boil. The thread should be closed.

[Laminge]

Originally Posted by GTS_300_Coupe

Wow I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed yet.
Any topic with even a hint of controversy on these forums gets shut down before you can say "in before the lock". :

Just waiting for posts like this to amuse myself with.

There is a report function in every post of the forums, use it rather than post comments

Obviously normal discussion eludes the populous of the forums.

[gtfpv]

SOME OF THE COMMENTS HERE ARE DISGRACEFULL ( SORRY caps)
you can really tell the boastful people who think they are innocent, enough to comment . on things like saying this guy is a coward for killing himself . and he deserved to be charged for manslaughter for being such a dill'

think about this for a minute. he participated in an irresponsible street race. in which 2 innocent people were killed .
not by him , but by another vehicle . think about it . that makes him as innocent as me .
anyone who thinks only idiots kill themselves in lack of respect for loved ones. i only 1/2 agree with . but wait till your there , before you comment. imagine you were this guy and he is proablaby the same as everyone . ( irresponsible ) on many occassions. and he has death threats/ his parents tell him they wish he was never born, his friends stop seeing him, the media derogitises his name . strngers call him a pathetic waste of space . in turn he gets really depressed, people tell him , he doesn't deserve sympathy, his victims do, he hits the drink or drugs and becomes more irrisponsible . he starts to agree with everyone and believes he is a bad person that dshould never have been born , thinks about his victims and decides the pain will never leave him. time to die . everyone he went to school with , has done worse or equally the same , and if they havent they will. such as maybe , petty theft/ adultery/ alcoholic. teased someione / and given them a complex for life. bashed someone. miss treated thier kids/ wished death to another/ ripped somebody off . and countless other things . yet still people come here , who are yet to relise the consequences of something they have done in thier own life, or yet to do.
and call this guy PIECE OF SHH I T FOR PUTTING HIS FOOT DOWN TO CHALLANGE SOMEONE ON THE ROAD ( on that particular day. )
i strongluy believ that some people should shut the f#*k up, because one day they will release how they are now , and be prompted to take thier own life from thier own arrogant natured character.

everybody lets themself down . it's just a matter of time . and it's the hardest thing to forgive yourself, bagging others will only make it harder when the time to live with your mistakes come .