United Petrol - Boost 98 and Plus ULP 10% Ethanol

[neb]

Just wondering if anyone else has tried the new petrol that United Petrol have released containing 10% ethanol.

They have released Boost 98 (98 octane) and Plus ULP (94 octane). The benefits of containing 10% ethanol means it is cheaper for them to make and cheaper to buy from the servo (I think Boost 98 was about $1.10 a litre when I filled up on the weekend). Ethanol is also meant to be better for the environment and also a natural octane enhancer.

So far I've done 150kms running Boost 98, I usually always run BP Ultimate and my ignition timing is fairly advanced. Impressions so far is there is no pinging or any other problems with it and performance and economy wise so far I can't tell any difference compared to BP Ultimate.

So has anyone else tried it.. any other opinions/results?

[Kingsley]

No, but I'd be interested to see how it goes. When they initially started trialling Ethanlol in fuel here in Newcastle ( Newcastle was trialled 3 mths or more before the rest of the state got Ethanol) I had nothing but trouble. Swollen and splitting fuel lines, carby gaskets swelling and leaking etc. This was before the % of Ethanol in the fuel was required to be displayed. So levels apparently varied widely. NRMA ran a campaign here to reduce the amount of ethanol because they believed this was reason people such as myself were having problems, particularly in older cars.

[EA2BA]

I thought ethanol killed engines, not helped them, hence the whole "no-ethanol" signs on all the fuel pumps.

I will be avoiding it, thats for sure, until I see proof it doesnt hurt my motor.

[merlin]

From the research I have done on the topic of ethanol it seems to be a good thing - as long as the concentration is no more than 10%

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Dellboy999

I thought ethanol killed engines, not helped them, hence the whole "no-ethanol" signs on all the fuel pumps.

I will be avoiding it, thats for sure, until I see proof it doesnt hurt my motor.

If you run BP Ultimate, you have already run it. The octane and cleaning qualities of ultimate dont get that way through magic, but by ethanol.

[neb]

I read up a bit before I used it I'm pretty sure ethanol is a good thing... apparently their is a bus in melbourne somewhere that runs on 100% ethanol

[EA2BA]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

If you run BP Ultimate, you have already run it. The octane and cleaning qualities of ultimate dont get that way through magic, but by ethanol.

Well there ya go, I may have put it in once, but I am guessing it is less then a 10% mix so is ok.

[neb]

Also isn't ethanol used in some racing fuels?

[parawolf]

It pays to ensure though the plastics and such in your fuel system (such as fuel pump, fuel lines, etc) can handle ethanol. Unfortunately there is no real way to find out - eg you cannot buy an 'ethanol safe' fuel pump.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

If you run BP Ultimate, you have already run it. The octane and cleaning qualities of ultimate dont get that way through magic, but by ethanol.

Hi Sour, I just spoke to a friend of mine who is a pen pusher at BP after a few phone calls, he guarantees me 100% that BP ultimate has no ethanol in it.
If any one is selling BP Ultimate with ethanol they are mixing it themselves.
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On different note guys, few years’ back there was a Senate enquiry into ethanol in petrol the findings were mixed...
If you fill up once a week and save $3 a tank over a year you saved $156 approx, my engine is worth a lot more to me than saving a few bucks on crappy ink thinners in petrol.
We use ethanol on our printing a machines, cleans up the ink spills and thins it out.

[neb]

I found this website about ethanol its pretty good... explains the pros and cons... http://journalism.uts.edu.au/subject...ng/whatis.html

[Fairlane]

Well ethanol can be scary in concentrations over 10% because it is quite corrosives. The commodore's sent to Brazil were they have 22% ethanol have brass plated fuel compnentry. Under 10% seems to be no problem to most cars.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

Hi Sour, I just spoke to a friend of mine who is a pen pusher at BP after a few phone calls, he guarantees me 100% that BP ultimate has no ethanol in it.

If they arent mixing Ethanol into the fuel, i'd be interested to know that compound they are using that has the identicle properties of a 10% ethanol mix, and what the point would be in creating a fuel with the properties of an ethanol mix but not using ethanol to do it.

Ethanol is a solvent, but at 10% its not exactly deadly to an engine(Far from it). This is why it cleans the valves and the fuel system and just about anything else it comes into contact with. Just as BP Ultimate is advertised.

It raises the octane of the fuel. Just as BP Ultimate is advertised.

I would say that you have received the "Public Panic Friendly" version of information as a result of the ethanol scare. A dead horse repeatedly dug up and beaten with fenceposts until being buried again.

There are plenty of vehicles that run on pure ethanol, there is a boom beginning with in the States with agricultural vehicles running on ethanol. Makes more sense for farmers who can make large amounts of it themselves from the raw materials of farming.

We also have alcohol dragsters, which is the same thing.

Frankly I hope a pure ethanol system can one day be setup for road cars legally. I dont see another way to run a v8 combustion in the future engine with petrol going the way it is.

[merlin]

There is so much on google about this. One quote that was interesting:

The alcohol found in alcoholic beverages is ethanol. However, the ethanol used for motor fuel is denatured, which means poison has been added so people can't drink it. Never swallow any type of motor fuel.

[merlin]

There seems to be a number of cars in many countries running on 100% ethanol with some cars in the US running on 85% ethanol/15% gasoline mix, they even have a few ethanol fuel stations in the US.

My question is seeing as any car can be made to run on 100% ethanol for a fairly low cost (and no performance loss, in fact you seem to get a performance gain) and seeing as the ethanol has very good energy properties, and seeing that it is a renewable fuel that can be grown out of corn why the hell are we still using petrol and why the hell are car companies spending billions on developing hybrids???

[csv8]

In Brazil ,all cars engines are specially made to run on ethanol. Plus Canberra will put excise on it, so it won't be cheaper. I am not putting ethanol in my V8. Howard can get stuffed!!!

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by merlin

and seeing that it is a renewable fuel that can be grown out of corn why the hell are we still using petrol and why the hell are car companies spending billions on developing hybrids???

It would appear to be a sensible solution on face value.

But it actually takes 6 "units" of energy to create 1 "unit" of ethanol energy. i.e. you are better of burning the oil straight up, as opposed to dicking around turning it into ethanol.

http://www.energybulletin.net/5062.html

Read all about it there, but the punchline

Patzek's ethanol critique began during a freshman seminar he taught in which he and his students calculated the energy balance of the biofuel. Taking into account the energy required to grow the corn and convert it into ethanol, they determined that burning the biofuel as a gasoline additive actually results in a net energy loss of 65 percent. Later, Patzek says he realized the loss is much more than that even.

"Limiting yourself to the energy balance, and within that balance, just the fossil fuel used, is just scraping the surface of the problem," he says. "Corn is not 'free energy.'"
This time, he factored in the myriad energy inputs required by industrial agriculture, from the amount of fuel used to produce fertilizers and corn seeds to the transportation and wastewater disposal costs. All told, he believes that the cumulative energy consumed in corn farming and ethanol production is six times greater than what the end product provides your car engine in terms of power

Who would have thought....

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

It would appear to be a sensible solution on face value.

But it actually takes 6 "units" of energy to create 1 "unit" of ethanol energy. i.e. you are better of burning the oil straight up, as opposed to dicking around turning it into ethanol.

I saw a study on ethanol production, what I didnt see was a comparison for fossil fuel. Supertankers dont run on daisy's, refineries dont run on happiness, and petrol tankers dont run on the double hotdog deluxe that the trucker bought at the 24 hour diner. Petrol has its own costs attached too, and without a direct comparison, its a pointless study.

Lets also consider that there is not currently an infrastructure based around ethanol to subsidize its costs in energy as there currently is in the oil industry. Refining to get the most out of oil products has been ongoing for a century, while ethanol refining processes are currently non existant, other then make it & burn it. Genetic Engineering could no doubt yield crops with a better fuel load, which are less dependant on fertilization. Research into refining ethanol will no doubt yield better efficiency through many means including aditives and catalysts.

Very little research, very little investment will yield poor efficiency.

We can increase the efficiency of petrol until we are blue in the face, but we will eventually run out. Its like improving a burning house to stop it burning down as quick. Eventually the bstard will burn to the ground and then what.

Originally Posted by csv8

I am not putting ethanol in my V8. Howard can get stuffed!!!

I hope you enjoy your Hybrid Vehicle....

Simple here folks, adapt or die, or the v8's are gonna be dinosaurs. Worthless unpowered relics sitting in our garage, of no use to anyone other then to stare at.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

I saw a study on ethanol production, what I didnt see was a comparison for fossil fuel. Supertankers dont run on daisy's, refineries dont run on happiness, and petrol tankers dont run on the double hotdog deluxe that the trucker bought at the 24 hour diner. Petrol has its own costs attached too, and without a direct comparison, its a pointless study.

Lets also consider that there is not currently an infrastructure based around ethanol to subsidize its costs in energy as there currently is in the oil industry. Refining to get the most out of oil products has been ongoing for a century, while ethanol refining processes are currently non existant, other then make it & burn it. Genetic Engineering could no doubt yield crops with a better fuel load, which are less dependant on fertilization. Research into refining ethanol will no doubt yield better efficiency through many means including aditives and catalysts.

Very little research, very little investment will yield poor efficiency.

We can increase the efficiency of petrol until we are blue in the face, but we will eventually run out. Its like improving a burning house to stop it burning down as quick. Eventually the bstard will burn to the ground and then what.



I hope you enjoy your Hybrid Vehicle....

Simple here folks, adapt or die, or the v8's are gonna be dinosaurs. Worthless unpowered relics sitting in our garage, of no use to anyone other then to stare at.

I'd have to agree with this Sour.

4.9 EF - with that study you posted, I see the author's point about corn not being "free energy" but faced with the alternative of oil running out surely it is a better option - after all if worse came to worse you can still grow corn without machinery (it would just be very labour intensive)

[neb]

I agree with sourbastard as well... I think alot more reasearch needs to be done in ethanol since it is a renewable source of fuel unlike oil. I think alot of cars will be running on 100% ethanol in the near future with ethanol conversions available.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by merlin

I'd have to agree with this.

4.9 EF - with that stufy you posted, I see the author's point about corn not being "free energy" but faced with the alternative of oil running out surely it is a better option - after all if worse came to worse you can still grow corn without machinery (it would just be very labour intensive)

Reasonable comments gentlemen.

Where does the land come from in an attempt to substitute fossil based fuel with biofuel? Obviously without the machinery it would indeed be labour intensive - but how to feed all the people when human food crops have been replaced with ethanol fuel crops?

The following article is of british origins i believe, but highlights some interesting points.

http://www.energybulletin.net/3288.html

I'll summarise one of them:

To run our cars and buses and lorries on biodiesel, in other words, would require 25.9m hectares.

Now, i'm lead to believe the United Kingdom has a total area of 25.5m ha (remember there's tens of millions of people that have to share that land... cities, roads, water etc). I think you'd agree that we would need to see some drastic improvements in harvest efficiency for ethanol to provide a useful contribution.

Readings in similar fields have suggested that the united states of america would need to turn the entire continient of Africa into a biofuel crop for ethanol to be a viable alternative for petrol based transport....

[EL_futuraistic]

Yeah. I certainly would like to see a lot more research b4 i begin feeding my EL ethanol. Not sure about bp ultimate, I have never personally used it although most ppl i know with performance vehicles that requre PULP swear by it.

Not sure who said it, but Yeah alcohol is essentially ethanol. I think it does have something else combined with it.

[Sourbastard]

"Ive tried nothing man and im all out of ideas!"

There are limitations to what we can do now. That does not necessarily mean that those limitations are insurmountable. Nor does it mean that we should simply give up, because theres no bloody alternative.

There are many sources of plant matter to make ethanol, including straw through modified yeast strains. How much bloody straw gets thrown away in this country alone? It doesnt all get sold, and plenty of it is just ploughed under and the stuble burnt. We throw away tons of fruit in the riverland every year to keep prices inflated.

Noone is saying lets just make sugar cane or corn cause thats the only source of ethanol, there are hundreds of viable sources that already exist in our current agricultural systems that are untapped. And we are already spending money on those crops to get food from them, its just a matter of waste management.

[geckoGT]

Interesting info.
During the conflict in Bougainville the access to petrol was very limited but they had to keep their cars running. One of the principal products of this country is coconuts and pineapples etc. During the conflict they would ferment their produce and run their cars on the ethanol. They also had prohibition against alcohol while I was there so they also drank it (go the jungle juice)

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

"Ive tried nothing man and im all out of ideas!"

There are limitations to what we can do now. That does not necessarily mean that those limitations are insurmountable. Nor does it mean that we should simply give up, because theres no bloody alternative.

This is not the message i am conveying. However, there is a lot of false optimism getting around these days... "oh, we'll just switch to ethanol/hydrogen/solar power "... "Someone will invent something".

The dismal reality is that so many of the fossil fuel alternatives either a) consume more energy in producing them than what they actually produce or b) require large amounts of fossil fuel to get up and running.

There is no easy answer and there never will be.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Simple here folks, adapt or die, or the v8's are gonna be dinosaurs. Worthless unpowered relics sitting in our garage, of no use to anyone other then to stare at.

lol... which Mad Max Movie have you been watching

[MaD_KiWi]

im running it now in the SS, hasnt pinged or rattled, and seems to go as good as BP and Synergy 8000, and its cheaper!!

[SpoolMan]

From Choice Magazine:
How can ethanol affect your car?
Theoretically, there’s a number of ways ethanol-blended petrol can affect a car — some are general problems, others only at relatively high ethanol concentrations.
Car operation
Ethanol affects several characteristics of petrol, such as its octane rating, octane sensitivity, oxygen content and volatility, and therefore a car’s engine performance and drivability.
Potentially, ethanol-blended petrol could cause problems for certain (mainly older) engine types, or under certain driving conditions. A study of the available scientific literature, carried out by Environment Australia, has found that the evidence is inconclusive. The government has started its own test program, with results not expected until 2004.

Fuel system durability
Petrol blended with relatively high concentrations of ethanol (above 10%) may cause corrosion of the fuel system, damage plastic and rubber parts and dissolve existing deposits, which may lead to blockages of the fuel line or fuel filter. These effects are more likely to be found in older cars.
Fuel consumption
As ethanol contains only about 68% of the energy of petrol, a 10% blend is likely to increase fuel consumption by about 2–3%. ]
What about the environment?
Overall, there seems to be little benefit for urban air quality or greenhouse gas emissions resulting from the use of ethanol-blended petrol. However, as ethanol is produced from agricultural products or waste, it’s a renewable energy source.