lowering = springs (+ shocks)??? - Page 2

nickOH · 11-02-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orsest170

What exactly does the race track have to do with anything? Last time I checked Eibach Prokit springs were for everyday road cars and not exclusively for track cars. Believe it or not, when you fit top quality suspension components to a vehicle, you can appreciate the difference in everyday driving (especially when you live near some very twisty roads

), not just on the race track. Anyway, it's not just the performance or quality that made me go for Eibachs, it was the sensible drop that they offer.

Sorry if a few of you are getting sick of hearing about them, but there are several people on this forum running Eibach springs who are very happy with their purchase, so when someone asks a question about lowering springs, then naturally we will recommend the Eibachs.

That's all well and good mate. But there are quite a few of you (and this is not aimed at you) that will degrade the reputation of King Springs at every possible chance, and talk up Eibach, even if they never have compared the two. That's what annoys us.

Mullett · 12-02-2009, 01:03 AM

Ok, well I have compared the two, same car, same setup, same driving, same roads, similar conditons, and there is NO comparison.

As i said before, king springs are fine, but Eibachs ARE better.

-RM.

mudwaa · 12-02-2009, 10:43 AM

I too am not against any given brand, having tried many combinations on many cars over the years. Kings, Whiteline Sways and Potenzas give the enjoyment i want thru the twisties. And the next step. A step of Konis will improve on this. If i happen to be looking at the colour of someone elses springs coming out of a corner ill be looking at my limitations, not running out and buying a different brand. If you love what youve got talk it up by all means but dont use it to rubbish other brands that still good quality items.

BlackLS · 12-02-2009, 11:34 AM

Perhaps its not the Kings are bad, its perhaps more that the stock shock is more suited to the Eibachs height than the Kings SL's height. I can see how and why Eibachs are better.

NickOH - its great that lowering magically gave you rims at the same time

Mullett · 12-02-2009, 11:45 AM

On a side note: the people who've played with swaybars, what combination have you gone with, and how's the improvement? I'll probably get an adjustable rear bar soon from Whiteline, how have you found them?

-RM.

mudwaa · 12-02-2009, 04:12 PM

I have the whiteline 24mm with the adjustable rear and they are by far the best improvement you can get value wise. The standard Zetec handles extremely well but these took it to a new level. One note tho, i did opt for the spherical link kit which ive had problems with (rose joint failure) and am in the process of sourcing some decent ones as they keep failing or now have to purchase the standard poly links. Puht the rear immediately to the hardest setting. Reduced understeer dramatically and had many comments from mates how flat it sat thru corners. That was before lowering it. One thing i did see today and have ordered which i think is linked to this thread is pedders adjustable upper control arms to negate the negative camber issue. Was quoted $280 for the kit. $55 alignment and $120 fitting which you could do yourself given the time and just take back for alignment. They also have a lower arm but was assured it wasnt necessary. Looks the goods tho compared to the piece of tin-plate that is stanard. Upper arm is similar to SPC and Eibach unit. One mazda3 owner said the difference was very noticeable. Think he had a similar height drop to mine but also the Mazda seems to have a lot of camber issues from what ive read, standard or lowered. Correct me if im wrong. Anyway will post the outcome when ive had mine installed.

Lanyi · 12-02-2009, 05:10 PM

nickHo, I fail to realise what the point of your original post was. Now,you are still talking like everyone on here is having a go at you, and you're getting defensive about something that really wasn't in issue.

No one has said that King Springs are worthless. But you have to accpet that King Springs are FINE. By fine, I am interpreting that as narrowly as I can, and you should too. No one said that you will have problems with Kings, no one is suggesting that the only thing out there is Eibachs. So realisticaly, what are you getting at with your comments?

Your suggesting that, 'no offence to eibach euro fan boys', people are 'paying out' King Springs - which annoys 'us'. Have you compared Kings to anything else? And, I find it hard to believe that people on here would take a go at King Springs without backing themselves up with facts and even then, the whole thing comes down to what the OP wants to do. So, make your 'emotion free points' and accpet that there will always be better and more expensive gear out there and that sometimes, not everyone wants to settle for 'fine'.

Your car turned out nicely, but your comments haven't.

More on topic: Would it be wroth coupling coilovers with swaybars, or would coilovers be enough to overcome as much of the understeer as possible?

mudwaa · 12-02-2009, 05:41 PM

Lanyi, my layman thoughts are that struts and shocks are what keeps the wheels in contact with the road surface whilst swaybars add uniform rigidity to the whole of the suspension unit and i guess chassis to a point. I wouldnt expect stiffening the rear damping would adjust under/over steer like a sway bar can. If im wrong, that is nothing new. But if your going coil-overs im guessing you would like im, work at doing all you can to tighten the chassis. eg. OS swaybars, strut brace etc. Seems pointless to throw good dollars at suspension on a distorting tin-plate chassis.

Mullett · 13-02-2009, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mudwaa

Lanyi, my layman thoughts are that struts and shocks are what keeps the wheels in contact with the road surface whilst swaybars add uniform rigidity to the whole of the suspension unit and i guess chassis to a point. I wouldnt expect stiffening the rear damping would adjust under/over steer like a sway bar can. If im wrong, that is nothing new. But if your going coil-overs im guessing you would like im, work at doing all you can to tighten the chassis. eg. OS swaybars, strut brace etc. Seems pointless to throw good dollars at suspension on a distorting tin-plate chassis.

To an extent, you've hit it on the head. Body stiffness is extremely important, but the function of swaybars and shocks is a little different.

Shock tuning is very important, and there is plenty of scope for oversteer/understeer adjustments, it works in different stages of the corner to where swaybars do though. A swaybar will give the biggest change in steady-state cornering (mid corner, entry and exit are secondary) where shock tuning can change the mid corner, exit and to an extent the entry of the corner. Front wheel Alignment plays a big role in the corner entry, and then flows down to other areas. Suspention tuning is an incredibly complicated art at the upper limits, and 4-way adjustable shocks (bounce and rebound, high and low speed) are not uncommon in high-end applications.

With all of that said, for a street/moderate track car non-adjustable shocks are OK if they're well matched, and single-adjustable shocks are great. The more adjustment you have, the more laps it takes to get the car where you want it to be...

Swaybar tuning is important as well, although much simpler. For the focus, if the biggest swaybar at the tightest setting gives the balance that feels right, a bigger front swaybar will upset that balance again. Spring rates are the same, although for a street application it's easier to buy a set of springs and then tune the swaybars and shocks to suit.

As far as chassis stiffness goes, more is better, but a bit of flex is ok. The only way you'll make a production car properly stiff is a weld-in cage, but the basic stuff like strut braces will help too. A swaybar does not stiffen the chassis, infact it puts more twist thru it because it resists suspention movement by putting that energy through the body.

Good springs and shocks (or decent coilovers) plus swaybars are never a waste of money, and the focus chassis is by far stiff enough to benefit extremely well from such modifications. After that, bushings, rose jointing...etc etc, but it's a waste for a street car and it will make it much nastier to drive.

On another note, I've been in touch with the GAZ distributor in the UK, they're developing a coilover package for the ST which should be about $1300AU including shipping, but I haven't got a date off him yet for when they'll be done.

-RM.

mudwaa · 13-02-2009, 10:59 AM

That is why Whitelines sways in the 24mm have the adjustable rear so setting it to the hardest setting immediately helps with understeer and the spherical link kit also gives scope for more fine tuning once i have the rest of my suspension sorted. And thanks for the very thorough lesson Mullet. One question i do have is about the koni yellows. are they increment adjustable or more a soft/hard setting?

mudwaa · 13-02-2009, 12:51 PM

Funny i was looking back over this thread and read Orcest comment "Well as you can see, this seems to be at odds with the opinion of at least one suspension expert". While i do agree that Eibach obviously do set a benchmark in suspension technology i also recall tobacco company with at least one medical expert who said smoking their product doesnt cause cancer. Just a dig at ya. I do respect your own and everyone elses comments in this forum

Mullett · 14-02-2009, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mudwaa

That is why Whitelines sways in the 24mm have the adjustable rear so setting it to the hardest setting immediately helps with understeer and the spherical link kit also gives scope for more fine tuning once i have the rest of my suspension sorted. And thanks for the very thorough lesson Mullet. One question i do have is about the koni yellows. are they increment adjustable or more a soft/hard setting?

Koni Yellows (at least, the two sets I've had) are a progressive adjustment, there's no 'click' as there is with some other brands of shock. The hardest setting on the swaybar would be great for around-town driving, I'm curious to get it out on some fast, trailing throttle corners (where mine is very easy to persuade into quite aggressive lift-off oversteer) with the larger swaybar, as i don't want to increase this habit too much...Something new to play with, anyway

-RM.

P.S. *don't take my suspension rant above as being accurate...I'm not an expert, this is just the bits and pieces I've picked up over the years, and I wrote it at 4am, so some of the terminology might be off*

mudwaa · 14-02-2009, 08:56 AM

I not sure of the handling difference between a CL and standard Zetec as ive only driven a Zetec. I know there is a 10mm ride height diff. and some damping adjustment. I see you have XR5 springs but are you still on standard struts? Ive only had oversteer probs in the wet which was still controllable once i understood the nature of the car. Potenzas helped a lot there tho. Book it in for the sways tho. youll love the difference.

Mullett · 14-02-2009, 10:33 AM

I've got the standard shocks, XR5 springs, and now 17inch Zetec rims and the std goodyear Eagles. I've had trailing throttle oversteer (not uncontrollable, it's very progressive and great fun

)with the factory CL springs, the XR5 springs, and both different sets of tyres (STD CL tyres and the Zetec tyres) Notably, it was far worse before the alignment was done.

Also: if any of the WA guys are thinking about Eibachs, we should get together and do a group buy, much cheaper shipping that way.

-RM.

svo supporter · 14-02-2009, 11:34 AM

I've had a quick read through this thread and having a little giggle to myself at all the 2 and froing about different spring/shocks and what's good whats garbage etc.

Here's a nice cheap effective way to improve the way the car turns and responds. Use standard XR5 springs, shocks and wheels, which then gives you round the 1 1/4 degree negative camber and set the toe to 0 - 2 MM toe out. Helps the car turn nicely into those lovely twisty corners, but I might add, tyres won't like it too much, nor your hip pocket.

Other than that, keep up the good work there fellas

orsest170 · 14-02-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mudwaa

Funny i was looking back over this thread and read Orcest comment "Well as you can see, this seems to be at odds with the opinion of at least one suspension expert". While i do agree that Eibach obviously do set a benchmark in suspension technology i also recall tobacco company with at least one medical expert who said smoking their product doesnt cause cancer. Just a dig at ya. I do respect your own and everyone elses comments in this forum

I realise one man's opinion is not the be all and end all, but I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. In your example, we have a man with a vested interest in a multi-trillion dollar industry lying through his teeth to protect that industry, and line his own pockets.

The point I was making is that the guy in the suspension shop actually had a vested interest in promoting the Kings or Lovells, because that is what he stocked and sold. He didn't do that, he did the exact opposite, and told me to go for the Eibachs (a product he didn't stock) as they are far superior to the brands he had in stock, and he effectively cost himself a sale.

Back on the suspension topic, I've been in an autokhana (sadly only as a passenger) in an LR Focus running a full Whiteline set up, and it was awesome. The turn in, change of direction, and general 'chuckability' of the car was amazing and it made my XR5 feel like a big family sedan! Those sway bars really do make a big difference.

mudwaa · 14-02-2009, 12:11 PM

Yes they do. And yeah i understand what you meant. Was just trying to put a little light-heartedness in what is a long running hot debate. I did actually look at the H&R cup set designed specifically for the Focus with similar height drop to Kings.Really money isnt an issue for me i just wanted a good height drop with better handling, which the kings do supply. A quick and easy fix until i get some time on my hands. Honestly i dont have any gripes about the kings, i think the drop is closer to 35mm on the zetec. On fast sweepers and tight twisties they work well. I do have a gripe about the condition of my local roads but that is any issue not for here. This is probably a wild one but does any use or know which Koni length would be needed for a Focus on King SL's?

orsest170 · 14-02-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mudwaa

This is probably a wild one but does any use or know which Koni length would be needed for a Focus on King SL's?

I think the reds and the yellows are the same length, and both are shorter than the stockies. I would think that the yellows would be better suited to the SL's because they are 'sportier' and firmer. The reds are adjustable though and the yellows are not.....

I had the Koni reds paired with some very low springs on an XR6, and they worked quite well, and you could notice the difference after adjusting the firmness settings. I also had the Koni FSD's (Frequency Selective Damping) on a Golf, and they were fantastic, but they are the same length as the stock dampers, and won't work very well with very short springs...... but paired with Eibachs on the other hand..... sorry, couldn't resist that one ;)

Mullett · 14-02-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orsest170

I think the reds and the yellows are the same length, and both are shorter than the stockies. I would think that the yellows would be better suited to the SL's because they are 'sportier' and firmer. The reds are adjustable though and the yellows are not.....

I had the Koni reds paired with some very low springs on an XR6, and they worked quite well, and you could notice the difference after adjusting the firmness settings. I also had the Koni FSD's (Frequency Selective Damping) on a Golf, and they were fantastic, but they are the same length as the stock dampers, and won't work very well with very short springs...... but paired with Eibachs on the other hand..... sorry, couldn't resist that one ;)

The KONI adjustable range are great shocks, although I'd call Bilsteins as superior. The FSD shocks are a fantastic idea, and I'm very keen to get a set for my car, but like you said: not compatible with lowered springs. They're not anything new: just a shock with seperate high and low speed damping, but still, great for a street car.

-RM.

BlackLS · 24-02-2009, 05:07 PM

Fix? for rear camber:

https://www.whiteline.com.au/store/d...sp?part=KCA394

Not sure if +/-1 deg will be enough but it will help.

Edit: just found:

Application Notes:
Can fit 2x kits if required to double adjustment range.

Fast Eddie · 25-02-2009, 01:17 PM

I was at the Bathurst 12 Hour Production car race last weekend where Mark King from King Springs was competing and was very tempted to alert him to this thread and maybe contribute to it but I thought better of it. I wonder what his thoughts would of been?

Mullett · 26-02-2009, 03:02 AM

Just to hazard a guess...but probably something along the lines of 'buy king springs...'

-RM.

BlackLS · 26-02-2009, 01:15 PM

Maybe his alias is Connorz

Fast Eddie · 26-02-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote: "Maybe his alias is Connorz"

Straight to the top of the list for 2009 Quote of the Year. Classic!!!