Interesting Drive article E10 vs 91RON vs 95 RON

[ebxr8240]

On the cars we have the Focus doesn't like it .. Its an 1800 04 model.. I assume it runs close to Stoich ?? Which will run lean ..It's burnt the cat out twice, every time E10 is used..$1500 a pop through Ford..
An EDXR6 with re built engine with ACL race pistons has VERY high compression and typical of these engines tune runs rich.. With 91 we have to retard timing to 6 to 8* to prevent ping..
BUT with E10 and ignition timing set at 10* it loves the stuff..
My car V8 turbo 5.4 Windsor was tuned on a mix of E10 and 95 when it dyno 482 rwkw..
AFR was 11.2 ..Then we re filled tank with straight 95. Back to dyno and tuner had to drop ignition timing back 4* to 24* but we could lean out AFR to 11.7 without loosing power or detonation at 16 Lb boost..
The 94 WRX doesn't seem to mind E10 but I tend to mix the fuel as its a Jap spec with higher compression engine, they have 100 octane in Japan..
The 07 WRX doesn't seem to matter, maybe modern engine management etc is more suited to alcohol type fuel..
The Turbo ED with AU engine running std compression runs ok on E10. But it has bigger injectors, wide band 02 sensor etc it just uses more fuel..
Or more the point forced induction runs very well on E10.. It requires load, ignition timing as its slow burning, richer mixture and compression or boost...
It seems the turbo management systems are more tunable to run a wider tune envelope...
Older cars have rubber type hoses that don't hold up too well.. Mind you given the age?? In some cases these should be replaced anyway.. In carb engines if there's any water in fuel bowl ?? It will fairly quickly corrode car being made from alloy..
Ah keep the money here imo and have some COMPETITION to the oil barons..

[LTDHO]

I love to hear the myths of Ethonol, so many peaople are scared of it.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Finally some sense in this thread.
One article talks to a person that works on high performance cars and says E10 is crap, or they do there ACA style 'independant' tests and you all jump on it.
But I only run 98ron on my base model Falcon....jeez paying extra money for nothing. Remember ulitmate runs 3% ethenol as a cleaning agent.

Oh ESP btw United has had E10 95 for over 2 years now.

There is no sense in that argument. Ethanol has less energy per litre than petrol does, so a corresponding greater fuel consumption will result. It is as simple as that.

[xbgs351]

One nasty effect of ethanol that nobody seems aware of is that it has far greater wicking ability than petrol alone. This means that a service station can have a petrol tank that won't leak with petrol in it, but with ethanol blended petrol it will leak. It isn't hard to envisage what sort of environmental problems can stem from leaking underground fuel tanks.

[RG]

Originally Posted by Nikked

-E85 tends to use 20-30% more fuel then unleaded, so anyone claiming that they are using 20% more fuel on E10 is a lier.

-People complain that after on ethanol their car runs rough, ethonl is a great cleaning agent, your cars running rough because you've had a dirty fuel filter, and that dirt is runing though the system.

**EDIT**

I have a loose theory that any hardline anti E10 folk have a tin foil hat tucked away in the cupboard.

So I'm a liar am I, no I'm not actually and unless you have been in every persons car that has run E10 you CAN NOT make statements like that. My XR8 DOES use 20-30% more on E10 and will NOT run properly. I do not have a dirty filter, there is not dirt in my fuel system and just because someone does not subscribe to your theories and beliefs it does not make them wrong.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Not correct in this part as there is NO carbon being made growing plants..
They actually absorb it and we burn it in our cars..

What do you think tractors run on? How do you think fertiliser is made? Chemicals etc etc?

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

There is no sense in that argument. Ethanol has less energy per litre than petrol does, so a corresponding greater fuel consumption will result. It is as simple as that.

Yes it does , but its also all about the pricing of the E10 fuel to compensate. Just like LPG , it just needs to be priced correctly.

The cars engine management system also needs to be optimised to run on E10. At the moment , no car manufacturer in AUS is building their cars optimised to run with E10. Perhaps further down the track we may see manufacturers making Higher Comp engines with appropriate spark and igntion timing to take advantage of the higher RON that blended fuels offer ????

You only have to see what most aftermarket tuners will do to the same car with a custom tune to see what can be achieved when the appropriate ammendments are made to igntion timing , spark tables and ECU mapping to see that its all about tuning the car to run on the appropriate fuel.

Recently MB released their new HiPo ACTROS 2656 FPC Envirotech’s 12.0L V-6 truck engines to run on LPG and the amount of work they put into their R & D and engine tuning was huge........but now they have a power plant the equal of and better than the oil burner !

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

What do you think tractors run on? How do you think fertiliser is made? Chemicals etc etc?

I think youve gone a bit off the deep end mate. The tractors and fertilizer are used in the growing process, which we get products such as sugar etc. Its the BI PRODUCT, the stuff that usually gets burnt or thrown away, that gets used for production of OUR ethanol. Making our Ethanol in Australia has very little impact on the environment, but in places overseas where they grow crops especially for ethanol production, quite obviously it has a much larger effect on the environment.

[XWGT]

E10 from United made my HiLux very sick. And considering HiLuxs are invincible, all I can say is it must contain some serious mojo to do that

[ADSXR8]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

I love to hear the myths of Ethonol, so many peaople are scared of it.

I completely agree. I have a company car and do many mnay kilometres a year. I also have a fuel card, so cost/consumption doesn't bother me.

In the last 18 months I have done around 100000km in 4 identical Aurions, I have used anywhere from 91 octane to 98 octane unleaded and E10 fuel from standard (which is around 95octane) to E10 98. Fuel burn, useage, is so similar it is not even funny. Only high octane unleaded have a noticed a markable improvement in performance/responsiveness and slightly better ecomony, the rest, I think are all the same

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

I love to hear the myths of Ethonol, so many peaople are scared of it.

yep, ild rather drive a Ethanol car then a battery powered car.

[csv8]

Read WHEELS December article on V8 Supercars and E85.

[EBII Ghia]

Originally Posted by Rodp

United Petroleum general manager David Szymczak...

Holy crap, I think his parents may have been sniffing petrol when they filled in his birth certificate.

Go easy on him. He's my brother in law. A nice bloke too. The Chaser even did a parody of him a few years ago "Without independants there will be no competition".

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

What do you think tractors run on? How do you think fertiliser is made? Chemicals etc etc?

Drawing a long bow there...
Its far more neutral carbon than burning fossil fuels..
Tractors can run on veg oil.. Urea and other fertiser comes in from overseas yes but so does our crude oil, our wheat etc must get exported the same way..

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Russell

So I'm a liar am I, no I'm not actually and unless you have been in every persons car that has run E10 you CAN NOT make statements like that. My XR8 DOES use 20-30% more on E10 and will NOT run properly. I do not have a dirty filter, there is not dirt in my fuel system and just because someone does not subscribe to your theories and beliefs it does not make them wrong.

Not attacking,singling anyone out.

But thats based on the theory that E10 ethanol has >5% less energy in volume...

E85 is closer to 20%, and that percentage refects on the economy...

But In odd cases sopme car could react different... or different petrol stations could have dud batches/dirty tanks etc. If ethonol has the ability to clean dirt out of fuel systems, then chances are that it can clean the dirt out of storage/transport tanks and transfer it into the car, makeing it run rough.

Personaly in my own car, ive noticed no difference in fuel use, and the fuel has not had negative effects, im inclined to say it runs better...

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by The Monty

I think youve gone a bit off the deep end mate. The tractors and fertilizer are used in the growing process, which we get products such as sugar etc. Its the BI PRODUCT, the stuff that usually gets burnt or thrown away, that gets used for production of OUR ethanol. Making our Ethanol in Australia has very little impact on the environment, but in places overseas where they grow crops especially for ethanol production, quite obviously it has a much larger effect on the environment.

But the new ethanol plants that have to come on line to produce the increased demand for ethanol with be using grain that is grown for food. For example, the proposed plant at Gunnedah will need 200,000 tonnes of grain and sorgum from the district that would otherwise go to food.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

On the cars we have the Focus doesn't like it .. Its an 1800 04 model.. I assume it runs close to Stoich ?? Which will run lean ..It's burnt the cat out twice, every time E10 is used..$1500 a pop through Ford..
An EDXR6 with re built engine with ACL race pistons has VERY high compression and typical of these engines tune runs rich.. With 91 we have to retard timing to 6 to 8* to prevent ping..
BUT with E10 and ignition timing set at 10* it loves the stuff..
My car V8 turbo 5.4 Windsor was tuned on a mix of E10 and 95 when it dyno 482 rwkw..
AFR was 11.2 ..Then we re filled tank with straight 95. Back to dyno and tuner had to drop ignition timing back 4* to 24* but we could lean out AFR to 11.7 without loosing power or detonation at 16 Lb boost..
The 94 WRX doesn't seem to mind E10 but I tend to mix the fuel as its a Jap spec with higher compression engine, they have 100 octane in Japan..
The 07 WRX doesn't seem to matter, maybe modern engine management etc is more suited to alcohol type fuel..
The Turbo ED with AU engine running std compression runs ok on E10. But it has bigger injectors, wide band 02 sensor etc it just uses more fuel..
Or more the point forced induction runs very well on E10.. It requires load, ignition timing as its slow burning, richer mixture and compression or boost...
It seems the turbo management systems are more tunable to run a wider tune envelope...
Older cars have rubber type hoses that don't hold up too well.. Mind you given the age?? In some cases these should be replaced anyway.. In carb engines if there's any water in fuel bowl ?? It will fairly quickly corrode car being made from alloy..
Ah keep the money here imo and have some COMPETITION to the oil barons..

I'd just make sure some of your cars can run ethenol. I know when I rang 13FORD (seeing about an LPG system) they do have a list of cars that can and cannot run e10. I know some Ford shouldn't be run on it. But all Falcons after 1986 could.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by The Monty

I think youve gone a bit off the deep end mate. The tractors and fertilizer are used in the growing process, which we get products such as sugar etc. Its the BI PRODUCT, the stuff that usually gets burnt or thrown away, that gets used for production of OUR ethanol. Making our Ethanol in Australia has very little impact on the environment, but in places overseas where they grow crops especially for ethanol production, quite obviously it has a much larger effect on the environment.

Ethanol is made from mollases and it isn't burnt or thrown away.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Drawing a long bow there...
Its far more neutral carbon than burning fossil fuels..
Tractors can run on veg oil.. Urea and other fertiser comes in from overseas yes but so does our crude oil, our wheat etc must get exported the same way..

He said "NO carbon", not "far more nuetral carbon".

Tractors may be able to run on vegetable oil, but in reality almost 100% of them run on diesel.

As far the fertilisers were concerned, I was getting at how much petro-chemicals go into there production.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by ESP

Yes it does , but its also all about the pricing of the E10 fuel to compensate. Just like LPG , it just needs to be priced correctly.

The cars engine management system also needs to be optimised to run on E10. At the moment , no car manufacturer in AUS is building their cars optimised to run with E10. Perhaps further down the track we may see manufacturers making Higher Comp engines with appropriate spark and igntion timing to take advantage of the higher RON that blended fuels offer ????

You only have to see what most aftermarket tuners will do to the same car with a custom tune to see what can be achieved when the appropriate ammendments are made to igntion timing , spark tables and ECU mapping to see that its all about tuning the car to run on the appropriate fuel.

Recently MB released their new HiPo ACTROS 2656 FPC Envirotech’s 12.0L V-6 truck engines to run on LPG and the amount of work they put into their R & D and engine tuning was huge........but now they have a power plant the equal of and better than the oil burner !

Yes it does need to be priced correctly and at the moment it isn't. Do the maths on the energy contents it is pretty easy.

Petrol 39.5 MJ/Litre
Ethanol 23.5 MJ/Litre
90/10 (39.5 x 0.9) + (23.5 x 0.1) = 37.9

With petrol at 110 cents per litre, 90/10 would have to cost
37.9/39.5 x 1.10 = 105.5 cents per litre to offer the same value for money as petrol.

[burnz]

sorry to thread mine:
but i noticed today that mobil has a different setup in it's fuel.

synergy 2000 (red) 91 ron "discontinued".

so now thay are.
E10 (orange) 93 ron.
synergy 6000 (blue) 96 ron.
synergy 8000 (purple) 98 ron.

[EDManual]

Forcing people into useless e10! Hope thats not in Vic?

[The G6ET Spot]

If you haven't already seen this HPF video, then you you better have a look. It may just change your mind a little on E10. I know it certainly surprised me and a few other people

http://www.ozgarage.com.au/season1-v..._campaign=ep10

[FreddyDUZ747]

We have United100 octane with 10% ethanol at United Pooraka.After 2tanks I certaintly noticed a difference.

On BP98 I get 500kms all the time to the tank and with the United100 I get around 460kms to the tank.At 8c a litre cheaper works out the same roughly with better performance.

e85 FTW.

[dave289]

Pulled up at the local 7 eleven on sunday. no more 91. Just e10, premium and diesel. what a joke. the whole fuel industry is a joke or is that a rort... :

[FreddyDUZ747]

Originally Posted by dave289

Pulled up at the local 7 eleven on sunday. no more 91. Just e10, premium and diesel. what a joke. the whole fuel industry is a joke or is that a rort... :

Nope,just evalution.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by RAPID XR8

If you haven't already seen this HPF video, then you you better have a look. It may just change your mind a little on E10. I know it certainly surprised me and a few other people

http://www.ozgarage.com.au/season1-v..._campaign=ep10

Very interesting video indeed. What surprised me most was how high the 91 octane kw was to be honest.

Wonder how many extra sales you would get if you offered a car that had a standard combo of 295kw @ 98RON and the same car with a tune of 285kw @ 91RON. The running costs will be substantially lower for not that much lower performance.

Then again, with 91 on the way out, probably not the best idea.

Looks like E10 is a pretty good compromise in the scheme of things. Decent power for less money than regular 91.

I did notice 2 things however:

1) With such a small fuel vessel, they could have enhanced the test by running the engine at X rpm for 5 minutes and seeing what was used.

2) The guy said that the E85 made around 310kw, but the dyno only displayed the 302ish kw.

On a side note, what I'm not happy about is the lack of a standardised RON for E10. I have noticed that E10 is sold as 91, 93 and 94 octane, fine if your car is tuned for regular 91, but not so good if your car is tuned for 95 and you pull up at a pump wanting to use E10 and you find its 91...

[FreddyDUZ747]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Very interesting video indeed. What surprised me most was how high the 91 octane kw was to be honest.

Wonder how many extra sales you would get if you offered a car that had a standard combo of 295kw @ 98RON and the same car with a tune of 285kw @ 91RON. The running costs will be substantially lower for not that much lower performance.

Then again, with 91 on the way out, probably not the best idea.

Looks like E10 is a pretty good compromise in the scheme of things. Decent power for less money than regular 91.

I did notice 2 things however:

1) With such a small fuel vessel, they could have enhanced the test by running the engine at X rpm for 5 minutes and seeing what was used.

2) The guy said that the E85 made around 310kw, but the dyno only displayed the 302ish kw.

On a side note, what I'm not happy about is the lack of a standardised RON for E10. I have noticed that E10 is sold as 91, 93 and 94 octane, fine if your car is tuned for regular 91, but not so good if your car is tuned for 95 and you pull up at a pump wanting to use E10 and you find its 91...

Valid point.An 95E10 all round the board would make sense(I mean all retailers)

[SSD-85]

I think ill be shifting my opinion on this, I use 95ron BP atm, but with ethanol boosted 95 being the same price as regular 91ron up here, i think ill be giving it a go.