Airbags and Child Restraints

04redxr8 · 05-07-2010, 10:22 PM

I have just purchased a new VE SSV ute for work. (Don't ask, its not the issue). The questions I have is in relation to the 6 airbags in the front (dash, side and curtain). The car has a child restraint anchorage point and instructions in the owners manual on correct fitment of child booster seats.

It does specifically indicate not to use a rearward facing car seat infront of an airbag. I already knew this.

My dilema is, I have a 4 year old daughter in kindy, who loves it when I pick her up my ute. (previous was a BF II, only drivers airbag). She travels in a booster seat, with a safety harness and the seatbealt pinned downed so it only crosses her lap.

Is this safe with the airbags? The ute is solely a work car, and would only be used as a treat, but I would want to know if this is a safe situation just in case.

I have already spoken to Queensland Ambulance Service, Holden and the Depertment of Transport and have not been able to get a definite answer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

geckoGT · 05-07-2010, 10:26 PM

I believe that as long as the child is outside the deployment area of all the airbags when restrained in the seat there is minimal risk. You will never get a definitive answer, no one will say that your child will be 100% safe in an accident, too many variables to give that sort of assurance.

04redxr8 · 05-07-2010, 10:37 PM

Thank you Gecko. Have you ever seen an accident with airbags involving small children?

I only ask as my daughter really wants to go in the new ute, but I am to scared of the unknown. As stated, I do make sure she is properly restrained. I am just unsure as to whether there is more danger, or is it safer for someone so small.

FordFalconBF · 05-07-2010, 10:59 PM

I wouldn't allow her to travel in the front of the car; in SA you not allowed to have child in the front of the car until they are 7 years old.. with all those air bags I wouldn't risk if you were in accident, those air bags could do some serious damage to her.

gtfpv · 06-07-2010, 12:19 AM

when i did the FPV drivers course with the GT . the instructer told us that children under 13 should not sit in the front seat of the falcon with airbags . my kids are 12 and 10 and i am only just allowing the 12 year old to sit in the front now because of this statement . the instructer through it in as part of the theory course , and then reimbursed it when questioned .

AussieAV · 06-07-2010, 01:38 AM

At the moment we've got a VY sedan (XR6 is coming) and I do let my 11 year old sit in the front. It only has the two airbags (Driver & Passenger Front), but I always make sure that the passenger seat is moved back to its rear most position. I figure the further away they are from the deployment area, the better.

I know all the safety advice says kids should ride in the back, and I'm not for one second diputing that, but I am curious as to why, if anyone knows for sure.

AussieAV · 06-07-2010, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

I have already spoken to Queensland Ambulance Service, Holden and the Depertment of Transport and have not been able to get a definite answer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Just another thought, try your states equivilent of the RAC (here in WA), or RACV (Victoria). Motoring organisations like this should have some degree of experience and/or expertise to offer.

geckoGT · 06-07-2010, 05:07 AM

I would not say that a 4 year old in the front of any car is advisable, the front passenger is the death seat in any car.

If it is a must occur situation, you can limit any risk by ensuring the child is restrained by the best multi point harness available, the seat is moved all the way back from the bag deployment areas and taught to never have any toys or books etc in front of the airbags at all (best to have no items with the child in the front).

Of course prevention is the best option in any car and drive like you really do have precious cargo (because you do). Drive within the speed limit, give good distance to the car in front, scan well ahead in traffic and slow through any intersection and cover the brake (green lights etc). This sounds like common sense I know but it amazing how many people don't do it and these techniques reduce more injuries than any ABS, airbags, harness, DSC etc.

Road laws that do not allow children in the front will be applicable when other seats are available, not sure they apply when one is not. Like I said, not a great option but out of necessity one that can be managed. I am not in any way saying it is absolutely safe and without risk, nor am I saying a ute is a good choice in car.

Interesting thought though, a ute that is driven carefully is better than a large family car where the kids are bunged in the back, allowed to have toys and books (that become missiles in an accident) and driven without adequate concern for safety.

prydey · 06-07-2010, 06:31 AM

slightly off topic but here in s.a. and possibly nation wide, there is a raft of changes coming in regarding kids in cars. how you can and can't restrain them etc etc.

the silly thing is, it goes on age. most new laws confirm that the people thinking them up are morons!!

my brother has a 3yr old boy that makes some 5yr olds look small. also boys and girls are all different shapes and sizes.

these laws should be based on weight and height, with age as a rough reference. surely these boffins can see the huge variation in sizes when sorted by age!

Fev · 06-07-2010, 10:50 AM

I always believed that with today's new cars, there were sensors in the seats which can judge whether or not there is someone in that seat, and by judging the weight - it will decide whether or not to deploy the airbag? Or is this only in German cars atm?

I'm not sure where I heard this but I think it was probably on the Discovery Channel

GoldCoastGTP · 06-07-2010, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

I have just purchased a new VE SSV ute for work. (Don't ask, its not the issue). The questions I have is in relation to the 6 airbags in the front (dash, side and curtain). The car has a child restraint anchorage point and instructions in the owners manual on correct fitment of child booster seats.

It does specifically indicate not to use a rearward facing car seat infront of an airbag. I already knew this.

My dilema is, I have a 4 year old daughter in kindy, who loves it when I pick her up my ute. (previous was a BF II, only drivers airbag). She travels in a booster seat, with a safety harness and the seatbealt pinned downed so it only crosses her lap.

Is this safe with the airbags? The ute is solely a work car, and would only be used as a treat, but I would want to know if this is a safe situation just in case.

I have already spoken to Queensland Ambulance Service, Holden and the Depertment of Transport and have not been able to get a definite answer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Congrats on the new ute - a bit better equipted than the BF2 I would say
Yes you can as long as what has been said before and you are doing the correct procedure placing here in a harness with the seat all the way back.
The one that grinds my gears is the stupid ones that sit in the passenger seat with their feet and legs on the dash - have you ever seen a leg that has been dislocated from the hip in a violent explosion not real sweet and a lot of pain to the one involved and it is usually young women that it happens to

aualright · 06-07-2010, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fev

I always believed that with today's new cars, there were sensors in the seats which can judge whether or not there is someone in that seat, and by judging the weight - it will decide whether or not to deploy the airbag? Or is this only in German cars atm?

I'm not sure where I heard this but I think it was probably on the Discovery Channel

I think with late model Audis this is the case.

****

Bossxr8 · 06-07-2010, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordFairlaneAU

I wouldn't allow her to travel in the front of the car; in SA you not allowed to have child in the front of the car until they are 7 years old.. with all those air bags I wouldn't risk if you were in accident, those air bags could do some serious damage to her.

So do you suggest he throw her in the tray then

geckoGT · 06-07-2010, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

So do you suggest he throw her in the tray then

Just strap her down REAL tight.

The weight sensing in the seat happens in most upper level cars with a passenger front airbag and side airbag but I am not sure how many of them will differentiate adult and child weights and adapt airbag deployment to suit. I think in most cases it is just a question on deployment or not depending on occupancy.

A lot depends on the weight too, I know in our Mini the weight of my work bag does not set off the occupant sensor as the seat belt warning does not illuminate, my bag can be as heavy as a small child at times.

04redxr8 · 06-07-2010, 06:38 PM

Thanks for all the replies. (thanks for the congrats too guys).

I appreciate all the time everyone took to post info. I didn't think to check to see if her weight registers on the seatbelt minder. (Easy to do in the garage).

The reason for the querie is that, if I do have her in the car with me, it will be only short drives. (To and from Kindy). As I'm sure Gecko will agree, statistically most accidents occur within a short radius of home. Driving home with all the other parents doing school pickups is what concerns me.

We live right near a Primary school and every day there is an accident waiting to happen.

Again, thanks for all the replies.

Ned

geckoGT · 06-07-2010, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

Thanks for all the replies. (thanks for the congrats too guys).

I appreciate all the time everyone took to post info. I didn't think to check to see if her weight registers on the seatbelt minder. (Easy to do in the garage).

The reason for the querie is that, if I do have her in the car with me, it will be only short drives. (To and from Kindy). As I'm sure Gecko will agree, statistically most accidents occur within a short radius of home. Driving home with all the other parents doing school pickups is what concerns me.

We live right near a Primary school and every day there is an accident waiting to happen.

Again, thanks for all the replies.

Ned

You are right, you are more statistically more likely to have a crash within a couple of km's of your destination.

You can however take a bit of confidence that these accidents also are more likely to involve speeds of less than 50 km/h which all cars with a rating of 5 stars are very survivable with little or no injury. The vast majority of crashes I attend involve no injury and most of them occur in low speed areas such as congested traffic, suburban streets and shopping precincts.

Like I said before, some caution will go way further than any safety features, I drive thousands of km's a year with unrestrained passengers in the back and I am often unrestrained while my partner is driving, comes with the job and you learn to drive with that in your mind. I am not saying drive with your daughter unrestrained but you can drive with precious cargo in mind.

The belt minder sensor is an interesting point, I wonder if her weight is not enough to trigger it, will the airbags on that side deploy? I will hazard a guess at no, a lot of new cars will not deploy an airbag if an occupant is not detected in that seat, I know our Mini won't.

04redxr8 · 06-07-2010, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

The belt minder sensor is an interesting point, I wonder if her weight is not enough to trigger it, will the airbags on that side deploy? I will hazard a guess at no, a lot of new cars will not deploy an airbag if an occupant is not detected in that seat, I know our Mini won't.

Fev actually reminded me about it. When I bought the car home, my wife sat in the passenger seat. Engine was running, and the seat belt light on the dash showed up with the number 2 beside it.

Might need to call Holden Head Office and see if i can dig up more info. It's not important for her to travel in the ute, but she enjoys it so much. But if its too risky, its not worth it.

geckoGT · 06-07-2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

Fev actually reminded me about it. When I bought the car home, my wife sat in the passenger seat. Engine was running, and the seat belt light on the dash showed up with the number 2 beside it.

Might need to call Holden Head Office and see if i can dig up more info. It's not important for her to travel in the ute, but she enjoys it so much. But if its too risky, its not worth it.

I suppose that depends on how good her booster seat and harness are and how much risk there is. With a good harness in a low speed impact she may be safer than you. That is up to you to evaluate as you know what safety measures you have.

When you mentioned QAS have you actually been to see a QAS restraint fitter and shown them what you have or did you do it over the phone?

Gaz · 06-07-2010, 08:21 PM

I know there are new laws coming in for child restraints as mentioned above. One of which is that in a sedan a young child isn't allowed in the front unless every other sesat is taken. There was a mention of utes, in a ute they can be seated in the front, but there was also talk about seats and capsules etc but sorry I can't remember what they were.

04redxr8 · 06-07-2010, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I suppose that depends on how good her booster seat and harness are and how much risk there is. With a good harness in a low speed impact she may be safer than you. That is up to you to evaluate as you know what safety measures you have.

When you mentioned QAS have you actually been to see a QAS restraint fitter and shown them what you have or did you do it over the phone?

We have our car seats fitted by the QAS. (Sunnybank). We have 2 children, the youngest is 22 mths so still in the child restraint seat. Our Daughter is in a booster. We use an over the shoulder style harness for her and actually clamp the seat belt so that it only goes over her hips. We had the one in the car fitted by the QAS, as the one I use in the ute I fitted myself.

I copied what was done in the sedan, but the one in the ute is rarely used. Would the QAS give more advice if I took the car to them and showed them?

cedric · 06-07-2010, 08:50 PM

i pick up my 3.5 year old in my au ute evey day i have dual air bags and i realise the cover hitting him in the face would not be good but i don't think it would be life thretening(i know you can die from sneezing too,but i think 1 in a million that air bag cover would kill, different story for under 1 year old but seat would be backwards). even my au has wiring that is for airbag under seat.

geckoGT · 06-07-2010, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

We have our car seats fitted by the QAS. (Sunnybank). We have 2 children, the youngest is 22 mths so still in the child restraint seat. Our Daughter is in a booster. We use an over the shoulder style harness for her and actually clamp the seat belt so that it only goes over her hips. We had the one in the car fitted by the QAS, as the one I use in the ute I fitted myself.

I copied what was done in the sedan, but the one in the ute is rarely used. Would the QAS give more advice if I took the car to them and showed them?

I have done station officer at Sunnybank Station and know Graham personally.

If I was you I would test the seat sensor with the weight of your daughter, find out if she trips it. Also find out from holden if the airbags will deploy if that sensor is not tripped.

Then I would book into see Graham at Sunnybank and discuss it with him, I have been in a conversation with him about child restraints and the new laws and he is a wealth of information. I have no doubt that he could give you much more information than I can. You should understand that no competent person will give advice of child restraint safety unless they have checked how you have set it up.

You can not go wrong if you go armed with the info I have advised and see the guy that fits these things for a living with the backing of the ambulance service. If Graham told me it was a reasonable set up from a safety point of view I would be happy to use it, if he told me it wasn't there is no way I would trust my little one in it.

geckoGT · 06-07-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cedric

i pick up my 3.5 year old in my au ute evey day i have dual air bags and i realise the cover hitting him in the face would not be good but i don't think it would be life thretening(i know you can die from sneezing too,but i think 1 in a million that air bag cover would kill, different story for under 1 year old but seat would be backwards). even my au has wiring that is for airbag under seat.

Depends on how close to the airbag your child is. A deploying airbag can break an adult arm if it is too close, imagine a child's face. I will give you a hint, a Laforte's fracture is a break though the eye sockets, cheek bones and upper jaw forming an island of unattached bone in your child's face that is often accompanied by a skull fracture, and yes is it immediately life threatening.

I hope you have that seat right back, a great harness and booster seat or you are playing with your child's life.

I do not intend on sounding mean or anything but some things scare me and people not realising the the force of an airbag is one. I have seen many airbag injuries, normally from someone having an item between them and the bag or a body part against the cover/too close to the cover during deployment. Trust me, a high force impact from the bag on a child in the face could kill and it is not a 1 in a million chance.