gtfpv has 2nd ACCIDENT IN ONE WEEK. - Page 2

Keepleft · 26-09-2005, 11:23 AM

GTFPV wrote; "this morning at 5.30 am i was travelling on the M4 motorway at 100km's an hour there was no cars in front of me I was in the middle lane straight section of road. When BANG,,, something hit the back of the car and hard".

ONE SHOULD keep to the left lane when on the M4 (or other freeway category roads) when the road and left lane is clear of other traffic, and only merge to the middle or right lane as the need to overtake arises.

Keeping middle unless overtaking, though legal - is a typical example of Australia's lack of driver training and often leads to circumstances such as this, where the vehicle in effect, is a moving 'road block' to much faster traffic which inherently congregate around the middle and right lanes, though they too should use the left lane if it, and the road is clear. It only takes one or two innattentive drivers to come to grief and primary examples like this are why I'd not raise intercity freeway speed limits, much as I'd like to do so.

** For those outside Sydney, the M4 in Sydney contains three unbroken lanes for the majority of its length with a left lane shoulder width varying 2.0 - 3.0 metres.

Glad your okay anyhow and hope it all works out, I am sure it will.

I have text in the Road Users Handbook highlighting freeway lane use in relation to 3-lane sections of freeway/motorway that will become national with time, and under 'crashes' - that one should 'instinctively', immediately, switch off the ignition of crashed immobilised vehicles and to then immediately switch on the hazard-warning lights to prevent other traffic joining to joy. The same hanbook suggests to carry a warning triangle and vest, see Sig.

ASYLUM SEEKER (Below): AUTO ONE stores now sell a Euro/World standard triangle for $22.95 (Rubber feet, made in Chine to EN/ECE Spec & E marked).

Race & Rally of Greenacre in Sydney also sell a Euro/world unit for $18.95. (Korean made to UN/ECE27R Spec and E marked).

The BMW and Hella units per Sig, have higher wind survivability owing their 'spidery legs'. All being UN/ECE items - they perform in reflectoring and daytime use via their inner orange fluro triangle,- exceptionally well. All these items I've used on road and each exceeds the Australian Standard 3790 in all performance parameters.

Avoid LED units, tried and tested, hopeless. Ditto Big W's LED $44.95 warning device - it blew over when a truck went past, too small too.

26-09-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

The same hanbook suggests to carry a warning triangle and vest, see Sig.

That's good advice, thanks for the part numbers.

TheSneakiness · 26-09-2005, 11:43 AM

You haven't had the best of luck in regards to cars these past couple of weeks hey?

Chin up mate, at least you are alive and kicking.

paulvdb · 26-09-2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

ONE SHOULD keep to the left lane when on the M4 (or other freeway category roads) when the road and left lane is clear of other traffic, and only merge to the middle or right lane as the need to overtake arises.

Keeping middle unless overtaking, though legal - is a typical example of Australia's lack of driver training and often leads to circumstances such as this, where the vehicle in effect, is a moving 'road block' to much faster traffic which inherently congregate around the middle and right lanes, though they too should use the left lane if it, and the road is clear. It only takes one or two innattentive drivers to come to grief and primary examples like this are why I'd not raise intercity freeway speed limits, much as I'd like to do so.

What an extraordinary response!!! You must surely be a true Public Servant to come up with rubbish like this!!. The guy was travelling alone on a quiet stretch of freeway at the speed limit and gets punched from behind hard enough to completely loose control of his car!! There's no question then that the guys coming from behind were most likely doing 150k plus. Keeping left may have not made any difference at all. I'll bet they were gunning their V8s and came round a bend so fast they couldn't get around the slower car in time.

That's what REALLY ****es me off about the RTA - always blaming the victim or suggesting that drivers who get into accidents do so deliberately. If the RTA got of it's posterior and actually understood traffic incidents then there would be NO static cameras ANYWHERE. We'd have highly visible mobile police doing policing and hopefully catching out the clowns who think they can drag on freeways.

SB076 · 26-09-2005, 12:23 PM

Glad to hear you are ok, as everyone has mentioned cars are replaceable. Bit surprised that the police can't do much about it, remember watching a NZ police show, where someone was hit and the other driver took off. The NZ police did catch the other driver in the end (forgotton how) and the whole story came out. There would be a reasonable amount of damage to the other car and you would think that they would have just limped somewhere to get the car repaired. Plus there would be a bit of evidence lying around ie remains of headlights, bumpers, paint etc.

SunDrifter · 26-09-2005, 12:30 PM

Thats a bit of an abrasive responce Keepleft. I think you should focus more on the fact that GTFPV did nothing wrong, rather then nitpick in a calous fashion.

Would you say the same thing to your mother, should she have been in the same situation?

Grow a heart mate, compassion is a good thing to have.

Keepleft · 26-09-2005, 01:37 PM

Paul DVB wrote: "What an extraordinary response!!! You must surely be a true Public Servant to come up with rubbish like this!!

No squire, I am not not....

"The guy was travelling alone on a quiet stretch of freeway"

In the middle lane of an empty freeway.

"at the speed limit and gets punched from behind hard enough to completely loose control of his car"!!

Absolutely! And,--- I never keep an eye out for whats coming up behind me either especially at 5:30am when its still dark....

"There's no question then that the guys coming from behind were most likely doing 150k plus".

You have no idea of that... but as always 'speed is a factor'.

"Keeping left may have not made any difference at all".

So lane discipline does not matter then? Sounds 'typical' Australian.

"I'll bet they were gunning their V8s and came round a bend so fast they couldn't get around the slower car in time".

This is a FREEWAY/MOTORWAY category road in the State of NSW, it does not contain 'bends' of the nature you suggest, but rather for most modernised part, has a sight distance exceeding 700 metres.

"That's what REALLY ****es me off about the RTA - always blaming the victim"

Please advise me where RTA have done this? It is recognised most crashes are 'multifactoral' in nature.

"or suggesting that drivers who get into accidents do so deliberately".

I am absolutely not doing that in this instance. Those that do; usually do so to gain illegal advantage in insurance, and where 'speed' is concerned, typically in slow speed situations.

"If the RTA got off it's posterior and actually understood traffic incidents then there would be NO static cameras ANYWHERE".

In some sympathy with you here. In NSW blame the Labour Party, see HANSARD for the debate into the new Pacific Highway fixed point to point cameras, note the Labour women MP's supporting them. (I am not a Lib member btw, but 'fault' always lies with the Gov Co in power).

"We'd have highly visible mobile police doing policing"
This is a Police resourcing issue, complain to the Police Minster, Scully.

"and hopefully catching out the clowns who think they can drag on freeways"
And those who otherwise break the high 110km/h allowance speed limit??

4.9 EF Futura · 26-09-2005, 02:11 PM

I think keepleft makes a reasonable point. Without debating lane choice and what is legal/not so, surely it makes sense to everything within one's power to remain safe. There's always gonna be idiots like the sick individuals who hit GTFPV, it makes sense to give yourself every chance you have to avoid such morons.

In no way is anyone blaming our unlucky friend, but minimising the possibility of harm, depsite no legal obligation to do so seems like a sensible thing to me. I do recall instructions during my driver training (many moon ago) advising to 'keep as far left as practical' despite the fact you are free to drive in the middle lane...

2IC · 26-09-2005, 02:18 PM

keepleft>> your last 2 post have really made my blood boil. I won't respond out of courtesy.... something you maybe should have done.

gtfpv>> glad to hear you're alright, ask the police about the ambo call and see if they can follow it up "for your insurance company..."

SSbaby · 26-09-2005, 02:32 PM

I concur with what Keepleft is saying. Maybe a new thread would have been most appropriate action as it does appear that the victim needs some emotional support here more than any psycho-analysis at this point in time.

GTFPV, if you are reading this, cheer up mate. You're alive, today's a new day. Forget what happened and start again. Your friend will be understanding. If not, life goes on.

Keepleft · 26-09-2005, 02:56 PM

2IC - keepleft>> your last 2 post have really made my blood boil. I won't respond out of courtesy.... something you maybe should have done.

Really? Why not? Logical discussion is often worthwhile for a better result.

"something you maybe should have done".

Understand this, forums are for debate, education and news. That said, do not make the mistake of assuming that I have no sympathy for our friend, and further understand that my response, intended for future application, stands.

NONE of what I've said in any way negates the seemingly 'ultimate' responsibility of the other parties.

For the last 6 thousand years I have attended crashes, by way of high distance travelled per annum, - have often been first on scene or near first, lucky ***** that I am. Genuine crash investigation extending well beyond that of local HWP and Coronial investigation is a personal interest of mine as a Motorist's Advocate, where I resist their occurrence in the first place by 'bettering the existing system' in totality, through defensive driving advocacy, funding and road design guidelines (and discussion in forums such as this). Such negotiations take my interactions from Geneva, Belgium, to Centennial Plaza and every AUS jurisdiction, India, NZ and New York.

Someone asked in thread if my response would have been the same had it, the crash, involved my mother. The answer in professional and ethical terms is yes, absolutely.

All those with whom I have taught, including family, know full well the European lane discipline and warning device articles of use that I Instil into their mindset. These are issues of on-road behaviour and equipment now being imparted, increasingly so, by State authorities.

Do you want better (more on-road involved and with mindset testing, not merely public service rambling) driver training or not?

Do you want higher speed allowances on intercity freeway's or not? Does our sad tale today help further that proposition???

We can accept this, NO amount of commonsense or driver education will stop idiots at point of operation, who are and always have been a very small minority of the population, from impacting virtual innocents such as our GTFPV owing many contributing factors. Remember too, much testimony given on this and many other forums,- if so imparted in a court of law, are wide-open to both prosecution and defence lawyers to pick at and demolish.

I suspect you have mis-read me 21C.

Deadman · 26-09-2005, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M14A-Mclaren

If they are the ones that rung the ambulance, won't their number be in the system?

Just stressing again - bloody good point! Might want to look into this mate...

And best of luck with feeling better, try and relax and look on the bright side - you're ok - many people might not have been so lucky in that situation.

hope you feel better soon...

Deadman · 26-09-2005, 03:35 PM

Keepleft - it's great you decided to turn this into a "I'm going to inform you how to drive" post, but don't worry to much, no one is taking much notice of anything you have to say anyway

: well, there's is the little chuckle of course...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

ONE SHOULD keep to the left lane when on the M4 (or other freeway category roads) when the road and left lane is clear of other traffic, and only merge to the middle or right lane as the need to overtake arises.

Keeping middle unless overtaking, though legal - is a typical example of Australia's lack of driver training and often leads to circumstances such as this, where the vehicle in effect, is a moving 'road block' to much faster traffic which inherently congregate around the middle and right lanes, though they too should use the left lane if it, and the road is clear.

haha, very funny.. if it's > 2 lanes, using the middle lane is fine so long as the driver is doing the speed limit. If you strugle with merging to the far right hand lane to overtake - then that's your issue to deal with and perhaps you should get some driver training...

If you know how to drive, you'll always look far enough ahead to adjust and be aware of traffic conditions anyway...

I believe your issue is with drivers who sit in the middle / right lanes, doing speeds considerably dangerous under the speed limit (i.e. 80km/h) which causes major issues, I aggree. but if the road is empty, and someone is doing 100km/h in the middle lane of the freeway, and you're unable to merge into the right hand lane to overtake - that is not his problem...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

All those with whom I have taught

OMG. Is that statement scary to anyone else??

XplosiveR6 · 26-09-2005, 03:38 PM

keepleft get off ur bloody high horse for one second and have a little compassion. GTFPV did nothing wrong he was doing the speed limit, he was in the correct lane by law. what is your problem?
should he have kept to the far left lane so idoits like you and the fool that ramed gtfpv can easily speed past, grow up the speed limit is 100kms/h on freeways even when overtaking, so either keep to that or get off the road

2IC · 26-09-2005, 03:40 PM

keepleft>> maybe I did mis-read you, was just a bit disturbed at the way "glad you're okay" didn't come till the 5th sentence. I understand your intentions to educate but just didn't like the apparent accusatory undertones. We do need educating, I've lived in France and have seen first-hand the superior road manners/rules in Europe and the speeds that can be safely driven at on decent quality infrustructure (something I think the Aus gov. has a bit to learn about)

However I didn't think that jumping straight in and reading the riot act was the right way to go but all's well now right?

4.9 EF Futura · 26-09-2005, 04:05 PM

Ford falcon xr6, EF dave - you are not familiar with the concept of defensive driving? Honest question.

It's obviously the speeding vehicle's fault - but defensive driving techniques are designed to minimise the number of instances where these idiots ruin your day. I'm guessing you simply take off when a traffic light turns green... no need to see if traffic has stopped, right? I mean - no one ever runs red lights?

Laminge · 26-09-2005, 04:08 PM

Geezuz people grow up.....

He has his opinion you dont need to turn it into a personal battle...

I dont agree with him, but this thread is not about that is it.

I feel for gtfpv, but this babble does not serve the purpose of the orginal message.

Keepleft · 26-09-2005, 04:35 PM

2IC - Right!

EF-Dave wrote: "keepleft get off ur bloody high horse for one second and have a little compassion".

Okay, I'm off the nag - >the compassionate bit you request; "you okay?".

"GTFPV did nothing wrong he was doing the speed limit",
The be all and end all of driving in Queensland AND as advocated by the idiots at Monash Teaching University and a particular chap residing in South Australia, futher administered by The Peoples Republic of Victoria Transport Group.

"he was in the correct lane by law. what is your problem"?

should he have kept to the far left lane so idoits like you and the fool that ramed gtfpv can easily speed past, grow up the speed limit is 100kms/h on freeways even when overtaking, so either keep to that or get off the road

FAR LEFT?? The middle-central lane/s are not the left lane, despite how you were taught in the Queensland driver training manual "Your Keys to Driving in Queensland".

Whilst it IS LEGAL to KEEP MIDDLE UNLESS OVERTAKING, as it is in Germany BUT ONLY IF the Left general (right in D) lane is busy, it is poor lane discipline and is not accepted in Europe where by most part (Sweden not withstanding) the authorities have their collective 'waste' together. Keeping middle on a freeway category road, in a dumbed-down environment such as Australia, New Zealand, the United States (LHD), whilst the left lane is clear invites disaster from faster traffic, be that traffic drag racing or not.

Download this link, Pdf. Goto Page 92 of the document. Similar text AND road lane marking changes are and will happen in QLD in time to work with similar text.
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/...englishweb.pdf

"so idiots like you and the fool that rammed gtfpv can easily speed past"

What makes you think I'd be 'speeding' past Queenslander? Have you given thought that owing the lack of driver education in QLD, as exhibited by your neanderthal like response is one reason why perhaps we should consider reducing the maximum speed of your M1 to 90km/h?? Afterall, to give faster allowance with such poor lane discipline, further worsened by pig-headedness surely invites disaster???

AND what alcohol fuelled fruit loop indoctrinated you into thinking that 'speeding' is only applied when one is over the posted or default speed limit?? I do know the answer to this and its not a pretty sight, but sheep readily accept it. A government that continually imparts this is negligent and will be found so at law, in time.

Ford_Falcon_XR6 Wrote: "If you know how to drive, you'll always look far enough ahead to adjust and be aware of traffic conditions anyway"...

NO argument and naturally we teach this with an emphasis to 'scan', BUT one is also required to keep a check on rear-closing traffic too. Having said just that, DO NOT take this to mean that I am targetting our hapless friend again who keeps getting clobbered.

"OMG. Is that statement scary to anyone else"??

YOU have a fear of German driver training?? Lessee F3, Sydney-Newcastle freeway crash AND fataility rates ats unrestricted (///) autobahn of ANY Route, OR overall. I can assure, your jurisdiction is a joke, but by Allah that will change.

The Federal government desires, absolute EU like, AND the Roads Minister in particular (Ditto former deputy PM Anderson), German-like lane discipline as stated by Loyd - 15 December last in Canberra. It is accepted by him I guess owing the likes of EF-Dave being the 'typical standard road-user' that it, proper lane discipline, will take generations to achieve!

One the other hand, we could do nothing, it's easier afterall . . .

deesun · 26-09-2005, 04:48 PM

There would be considerably less hostility to Keepleft if he had first expressed some concern for GTFPV instead of bereting him for being in the middle lane. I have read with interest many of his threads and he certainly has some good points and I'm sure we on these forums are willing to debate these, but I'm with the others in that he should have expressed some concern as to the health of GTFPV first. I would have thought it was just good manners.

Keepleft · 26-09-2005, 04:55 PM

Deesun,

Absolutely, next time I'll offer same FIRST up, but, in such a thread example it is hard really to 'introduce' other related discussion without it being taken as 'pure hostility' by some who cannot comprehend what is said in written text.

Hell, I'd likely contact Hella and have them post him a free triangle!

Don't do this stuff for the money I can assure.

Dauphin · 26-09-2005, 05:00 PM

Sorry to hear about the experience you have had, GTFPV. Glad to know that you have come out alive. That idiot who hit you must have been excessively speeding and maybe high on drugs or something stupid like that.

There was a report on Today Tonight that showed this guy on ice who was just shouting and cheering himself and driving like a moron, hitting 4 cars and speeding off.

I have been campaigning for the Victoria Police to get onboard with a show like Motorway Patrol to try and show the aftermath and consequences of these kind of things. Everyone said the NZ show was boring but it can really show what happens from these things. Not just the crashes and people getting fined but the emotional experience and arguments between road users and the law, seriousness of going to court, etc.

Well anyway, good to know you're alright. I hope that it is the end of your bad experience behind the wheel and wish you the best.

Andrew.

Sourbastard · 26-09-2005, 05:28 PM

OK thats enough fertilizer for one day folks.