Wheel Alignment- Camber kit?

WannabeXP · 22-06-2011, 11:52 PM

G'day everyone!
So i have an AUII xr6 thats live axle with 18" Azzuro wheels and SL Kingsprings in the front.
I went and got an alignment done today locally at Goodyear Autocare here in Warrnambool and they only adjusted the toe and claimed i need a camber kit.
I did ask them to do it but they wriggled and squirmed because the car is on gas!
Anyway i had the impression before i lowered it an inch or so more then standard that i wouldn't need a camber kit just an alignment. After that i did a bit of research using the search tool and found out a little bit but my questions were not directly answered.
Now i didnt get provided with a printout, they charged me fullprice and they haven't laid a spanner on the UCA mounts which upon further research actually have around 10mm of thread left in them.
So this sparked some anger and swearing once i found that out!!!
Anyway so the question is do i actually need a camber kit? And i do know its hard to say without figures!
Also what tyre pressure should i have in my tyres if they are 245/40R18??
The tyres are completely stuffed due to the camber and Goodyear definitely did not want to help me out!
I will endeavour to get a printout and possible explanation from goodyear but i dont like my luck! Imagine how many people they have been ripping off who would have no idea about a wheel alignment in general!
Tomorrow i will get pictures and if i can get a printout i will upload a scan
Cheers in advance!!

robbyj · 23-06-2011, 01:18 AM

I haven't heard of anyone needing a camber kit for the AU's, i doubt you would need one either.

Sounds like a rough experience with them.
A written letter addressed higher up in their organization might see the offending store get a kick in the pants.

SLO AU XR8 · 23-06-2011, 08:50 AM

If you have 10mm of thread on the UCA Mpunts, then there is no need for a camber kit. Go to a suspension specialist, not a tyre joint for a wheel alignment unless they are known for good alignments and not Toe and Go alignments.

FTe342 · 23-06-2011, 09:33 AM

sounds like there is an access problem due to the gas install? Is this why they don't want to do the job? Maybe they have doubts the 10mm will be enough to correct the camber if its out that far

WannabeXP · 23-06-2011, 10:38 AM

There is access issues due to the gas, but you could still get a spanner on it, and in regards to how much movement i need i haven't got any idea because they didn't get me a print out.
The way i saw it they took the easy way out and still charged me for it!
I can't really afford go somewhere else, i paid them for an alignment and they didn't sort out the main reason why i went and got one.
Will get pics soon...
An afterthought, how many straight gas, and dual fuel falcons are there round? Don't they work on taxi's??

blueoval · 23-06-2011, 11:01 AM

Wannabe - I had this problem in the past. Even with LPG, it CAN be done. just need someone willing to do the job for you.

In saying that, I have a SuperPro Camber shim style kit fitted to my car. Cheaper to buy, more of a hassle to adjust. The other option is a ratchet style camber kit that can be adjusted via a spanner, the wheel aligners love these as its quick for them to get the adjustment right, but they are more expensive to buy.

In saying that, the guy I got to fit the kit is a mate and in the end he said due to my settings I probably did not need the kit in the first place unless I wanted a true straight setting.

Currently my setting has 1.5 degrees of negative camber and 2mm of toe in. I chose this setting due to wanting improved response for steering in the hills. Now this isn't what most alignment places will advise as it does make the inside edge of your tire 'feather' with light wear. But if you rotate your tires often enough, the affects of this wear can be prolonged. To date, I still get 30,000-40,000km out of a set of tires from my 235/40/18s, feathering and all. Sure the inside edges are a little worn, but their aren't bald or down to canvas. I would say its slight unevenness of wear, but nothing massively drastic. Again, tire pressure and regular rotation is what I do to maintain some longevity. But it's the price I pay for better handling.

My point is, in the end, it comes down to what settings you want. If you want the settings to be straight up and true, and you are certain you have 10mm left on the thread, then I would get them to adjust it to it's limit. It can be done on a LPG car, just that they have to work around the gas converter. A b**** yes, but doable and if you have paid for the privilege then I would go back and get them to do what you paid them to do. It sounds like to me that they want to charge to supply and fit a camber kit to justify charging you more money as it will take some time to fit.

It's only my 2c

WannabeXP · 23-06-2011, 11:35 AM

Thanks Shav, yeah well, they sorta just palmed me off, The UCA mounts have not been touched! i have about 5' of negative camber and the inside edge of my tyres are absolutely shot! But they did absolutely nothing to rectify the issue, they even said they were knackered yet didn't touch the camber setting?
What pressure do you run in your tyres?
I had to vent all this BS somewhere so i thought i'd share my experience with you guys!

blueoval · 23-06-2011, 11:41 AM

5 degrees camber? Are you serious? Yeah get that looked at asap mate. Surprised you can steer with that much camber. LOL. But if they havent touched it and charged you for it, I would kick up a stink about that.

Im running about 38psi on average. But when I hit the hills I run about 35-36psi as the tire pressure increases with heat from the brakes anyway. Some people run 40psi but that just makes things too rigid for my liking and I just get wheel spin if the tires are pumped up too hard.

T3man · 23-06-2011, 11:46 AM

They sound like a lazy bunch of incompetents.

Gas convertors are not hard to release in order to access the nuts.

5 degrees of negative is however a lot, and I'd say you will need more than 10mm of thread to achieve a reading of around 1.5 to 2 degrees negative which would be acceptable.

If you can get the camber down to that; and have your toe set to about 1 to 2 mm IN; and run your front tyres at 40 psi (rears at 36) you should not have tyre wear issues.

WannabeXP · 23-06-2011, 11:57 AM

Yeah sounds good, well i dont know about 5' but its pretty bad, visually the wheels look to be sitting out a fair bit more at the bottom. I will go see them soon. Ive got really excessive wear on the first 1-2 inch of the inside edge of the tyres.
Anyway i will get back to you guys once i've been to see them
Cheers for the help!!!

WannabeXP · 23-06-2011, 02:54 PM

Righo! Well went to goodyear and they rattled off some rubbish, apparently i have 1.5' of negative camber and they want to get it to around evenish on the RHS and around 1ish on the LHS to suit the camber of the road. they gave me some UCA mounts so I could put new longer bolts in them and a few shims.
They didn't give me my money back and They didnt have the printout, anyway long story short I'm not going back that is for sure!!!
So i went out to another local garage who i should have went to in the first place(story of my life apparently) Coastal tyres is the name and they were very helpful, i spoke to the aligner and he had a look and reckons he can sort it out for me without my home made camber kit. He said he will run just into the positive camber on the RHS and less then 1' on the LHS, he seemed like a good bloke, the gas didnt worry him and its only 50 bucks not 60 like at goodyear, anyway ill be leaving a complaint at goodyear thats for sure.
here are some pictures of the engine bay, one of the mounts and another trying to show how the wheel itself sits

Thanks for all your help guys!

blueoval · 23-06-2011, 02:59 PM

Sounds like a good outcome mate. It looks like the same sort of camber that I have. Nothing too bad as long as the alignment is still tracking straight. What the new mob quoted you though sounds good. So I would go with that. I personally think you will enjoy some added handling with a 1-1.5deg camber. It certainly makes things more interesting. If it concerns you greatly perhaps get them to reduce it to 1 deg or just under 1 degree. But all in all 1.5deg isn't a great amount to be worried about. It just means that you need to rotate tires more often.

svo supporter · 23-06-2011, 07:22 PM

With 1.5 negative camber, and 10MM of thread, you can shim it to rectify the problem. You'll only need 5 to 6MM of thread to do so.

As for the car being on gas. What a mob of tossers. Even with the car being on gas, there's more room to get to the nuts, that what there is with earlier Falcons. V8 ones are worse again, but still achieveable.

On AU's, the left hand side is the worse. However by undoing the nuts from underneath the car, rather from up top, it makes life a lot easier.

The same method applies with earlier Falcons, and V8 ones.

Noticing you have some shims, if you need, I can put up a detail description of how to fit them yourself. then all you have to do is get the toe adjusted.

Choice is yours.

WannabeXP · 24-06-2011, 12:39 AM

Yeah i thought they were being soft as well! Well yeah I'm pretty up with mechanical stuff its just i dont have the flash computer to tell me how the wheel is sitting, and the people at goodyear didnt give me a printout so the figures could be way off.
Its just annoying, 60 down the gurgler which leads to another 50!! thats one expensive wheel alignment!
So Shav you run both sides the same? Because our roads here are rubbish so I'm not sure that it will get the desired outcome, anyway i'll talk to the guy on monday when its going in and see what he says. i think i would prefer a little less agressive then yours, I'm pretty lazy when it gets to rotating!
Cheers for the help fellas

blueoval · 24-06-2011, 08:38 AM

No worries bloke. Seeing as u don't do much hills work and your roads are ordinary, perhaps a 1deg max would be ok. I would take others advice and slightly more camber on the left so the car tracks true on the road due to the natural camber of the road. That way the car won't feel like it wants to vere left all the time.

FTe342 · 24-06-2011, 09:22 AM

[QUOTE=WannabeXP]Righo! Well went to goodyear and they rattled off some rubbish, apparently i have 1.5' of negative camber and they want to get it to around evenish on the RHS and around 1ish on the LHS to suit the camber of the road.

So you don't have 5 degrees and where it sits is OK.

I get the impression you thought it must of been mainly camber that caused your tyres to wear on the inside. (because you said it looks to have 5 degrees) Are you aware that incorrect toe can cause that wear on the inner edge and you may just be throwing away another $50

WannabeXP · 24-06-2011, 11:22 AM

Yeah i thought that my camber was causing the wear.. But the wheels are pointing in the wrong directions.
Yeah thanks for that FTe
So now that my toe is alright and i have 1.5' camber my tyres should not chew out provided they are rotated every 10k???
Maybe this next 50 is a waste, ill just leave it! I'm sick of spending money on this car and its still not going faster

blueoval · 24-06-2011, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WannabeXP

Yeah i thought that my camber was causing the wear.. But the wheels are pointing in the wrong directions.
Yeah thanks for that FTe
So now that my toe is alright and i have 1.5' camber my tyres should not chew out provided they are rotated every 10k???
Maybe this next 50 is a waste, ill just leave it! I'm sick of spending money on this car and its still not going faster

That's what mine is mate. And I dont have excessive wear. What you'll find is that the car will handle much nicer around corners with little to no understeer. Meaning you will be able to approach and exit corners faster and flatter. If you got 2mm toe in, it helps you to enter the corner more directly and give you some improved steering response.

4ford · 24-06-2011, 12:14 PM

My AUII6 sedan is lowered at the front, and has a camber kit fitted to one side.
That was done about 6 months ago by some professionals here in Brisbane, and now it tracks really good, holds a straight line, and the steering wheel is straight.

I run 38 psi in the front, and 36 in the rears, and the resulting tyre wear is great, no uneven wear at all, the fronts still look like new!

Cheers
4ford

FTe342 · 24-06-2011, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WannabeXP

Yeah i thought that my camber was causing the wear.. But the wheels are pointing in the wrong directions.
Yeah thanks for that FTe
So now that my toe is alright and i have 1.5' camber my tyres should not chew out provided they are rotated every 10k???
Maybe this next 50 is a waste, ill just leave it! I'm sick of spending money on this car and its still not going faster

Provided you have 1.5' camber. They didn't give you the printout so as long as you are confident that's what it is!

If the tyres are pretty much shagged maybe just leave it till next time you get a new set and get it aligned at the 2nd place then

WannabeXP · 24-06-2011, 10:06 PM

Yeah my tyres are well and truly past it already! I can tell you that the camber is the same on both sides :P
I'm fairly sure, might test out my trigonometry skills if i get excited about it 2mora with a level and a tape, that will give me a rough idea
I think that i will roll with it, It feels so good through corners now and I'm not fighting to drive in a straight line.
Next thing on the cards is to sort out the tyre pressure
Once again very helpful guys thanks alot!
Cheers Jason

svo supporter · 24-06-2011, 10:46 PM

Problem is, camber settings might be alright for one person, but useless for the next. reading through this forum is testiment to that.

Are both front inside edges stuffed? Or is just the left stuffed? If it's both or just the left, camber is the wear problem.

Yes, having both cambers even does help track true, but caster also effects tracking.

Unfortunately, diagnoising your tyre wear issues over the net can be fraught with perils. One persons settings might be spot on for them, but useless for you.

The best way to know for sure, is to actually check tyre wear over a period of time and adjust accordingly. This is where the art of aligning comes to play.

WannabeXP · 25-06-2011, 10:18 AM

Yeah both inside edges are stuffed, but the toe was pointing \ / like that i beleive.
It was a pig to get it to drive in a straight line.
Time will tell all!
Say i make an adjustment (using the shims i got from Sh1tyear) how much will a 3mm shim effect the camber and does that effect the caster and toe as well?
Or can i just throw in the shim and the wheel will stand a bit straighter and its all happy days?
Cheers Jason

svo supporter · 25-06-2011, 06:52 PM

3MM shim, in both front and rear control arm brackets = 1/2 degree camber change. Toe will be effected but not Caster.

However if you only put one shim in one control arm bracket, it'll effect toe and caster and a little bit of camber. But not enough on the camber side to achieve what you're aiming for

The toe diagram you posted up, looks like camber. (postitive I might add to) (Vertical) Toe is horizontal

randel · 25-06-2011, 10:33 PM

the other problem with gas installs is if they use the rear UCA bolts to mount the convertor. You then find the front bolts (as in your pic) have plenty of thread but the rear mount has none.

svo supporter · 25-06-2011, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randel

the other problem with gas installs is if they use the rear UCA bolts to mount the convertor. You then find the front bolts (as in your pic) have plenty of thread but the rear mount has none.

Can't say I've ever seen this. Generally speaking they put them on the raised section of the tower itself, as the nuts are recessed, therefore making it more difficult to mount the converter.

randel · 25-06-2011, 10:58 PM

yeah, not saying it is the norm, just have seen it.

WannabeXP · 25-06-2011, 11:40 PM

Na my install uses a Gal sheetmetal bracket and sits over the top of them.
Dont worry ive checked!!!
Svo, I should explain my highly scientific diagram better! LoL
Its a view from above the car so each wheel is pointing out slightly i beleive.
But thats all fixed anyway! "Apparently"
Cheers Jason

wesomc · 26-06-2011, 12:57 AM

Is there still heaps of thread on the rear mount studs? Due to the shape of the UCA on AU-> the rear mount affects camber much more than the front (ie rear mount - camber adjuster, front mount - caster adjuster). It is fairly normal to have plenty of thread left on the RHS front mount studs, as there will be less shims on that mount to keep caster down on that side (for the same reason LHS camber is run more negative than RHS). From my experience, I would be trying to get your camber and caster set correctly so you don't have to toe the front in a mile to compensate (can lead to wearing both shoulders of the tyres). Hope this helps.

Wes