Brake upgrade

Mr Cube · 14-10-2005, 11:13 AM

Got my new brakes going in next week.. Getting the some of the parts from the guys down at Ferntree Gully. I got a set of BA calipers and rotors but decided to get brand new rotors...

Only doing the front at this stage will look to do that backs at a later stage..

Will keep everyone posted... Once she stops a heap better MORE POWER TIME...

parawolf · 14-10-2005, 11:17 AM

Well yes considering that the fronts will do 80% of the braking when going hard that is the correct way to go. The most economical thing you could do the the rears is a good set of vented and grooved discs (never ever go cross drilled), good pads, fresh brake fluid and braided lines.

You could probably safely upgrade to something like some ~350mm front discs and 4 piston AP Racing calipers and the backs at the above spec would still do the trick.

15-10-2005, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parawolf

Well yes considering that the fronts will do 80% of the braking when going hard that is the correct way to go. The most economical thing you could do the the rears is a good set of vented and grooved discs (never ever go cross drilled), good pads, fresh brake fluid and braided lines.

You could probably safely upgrade to something like some ~350mm front discs and 4 piston AP Racing calipers and the backs at the above spec would still do the trick.

Why would you never go crossdrilled on the rear

parawolf · 15-10-2005, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stampy

Why would you never go crossdrilled on the rear

because they develop cracks, they are not as thermily stable, they are mechanically weaker. The drilling also reduces the effective clamping surface area which means you have a lower coefficient of friction. You will find that if you don't look after them you will be prematurely replacing them

Cross drilled rotors on anything sold by Ford Australia is a waste of money. Just look at V8 supercars... do they need cross drilled rotors?

Yes they might look nice (personal opinion of others, not me) but technically there is no point.

geckoGT · 15-10-2005, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parawolf

because they develop cracks, they are not as thermily stable, they are mechanically weaker. The drilling also reduces the effective clamping surface area which means you have a lower coefficient of friction. You will find that if you don't look after them you will be prematurely replacing them

Cross drilled rotors on anything sold by Ford Australia is a waste of money. Just look at V8 supercars... do they need cross drilled rotors?

Yes they might look nice (personal opinion of others, not me) but technically there is no point.

In the low end stuff, yes I agree but I am sure when you talk high end stuff it is a different story, just ask Porsche, Ferrari, lamborghini etc.

15-10-2005, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

In the low end stuff, yes I agree but I am sure when you talk high end stuff it is a different story, just ask Porsche, Ferrari, lamborghini etc.

im with you GECKOXR8 low end stuf mybe but ive had them on my XR6 AU1 VCT and they looked and performed well i would use them again ,
I am just about to purchase the PBR brake upgrade kit for the REBEL it's the best value for money package i can find, when ive only got 2.5k to spend. I have to do it because when i get out of the ST170 into the XR I find it very hard to pull up..

**Mechan1k** · 15-10-2005, 08:36 PM

I am waiting on the 330mm discs and 4-piston calipers for the AUII to be sorted out ... currently in testing at the moment ... should be well below the $2K mark ... with braided lines and installed as well.

Once Joe @ Crescent is ready with it ... I'll post up details and pics of the install.

sfr rob · 16-10-2005, 12:43 AM

i am really hating my brakes lately!!

i got the series 1 standard brakes.... they dont like to pull the car up from high speeds which is kinda scary sometimes!
would getting new slotted rotors do much? i only changed pads and rotors 6 months ago but they still arnt good enough for what i need!!

what are your suggestions?
how much would something half decent set me back to? I have been told up to $2000

cheers
rob

JC · 16-10-2005, 12:49 AM

Rob - I've got slotted DBAs on my AU1 XR8 and it pulls up as well as my AU2 with the twin piston callipers. The slotted rotors and good pads (I use Bendix Advance) make a huge difference to the tiny little AU1 brakes.

sfr rob · 16-10-2005, 12:59 AM

So what would YOU do?
just get the new rotors.
rotors, and better pads ( mine are pretty good though )

new brake setup? (tickford)

i havent changed the brake fluid in a long time, would that make a difference also??

JC · 16-10-2005, 01:15 AM

Forget about what I WOULD do; look at what I did. I have the DBA slotteds (or go for slotted and X-drilled if you want the looks too). Try them first - part number for an AU1 is DBA 500S, or DBA 500X.

A pair for the front should set you back around $250 - in all my ringing around, I have found that SuperCheap are actually the cheapest supplier. If after bedding them in properly, you still don't think your brakes are good enough, then maybe look at a $2K kit. But really, the DBAs should be fine to pull you up from legal speeds. Oh, and get some DOT4 brake fluid (higher boiling point), flush the old fluid out and put the new stuff in - that should make a fair difference as well.

**Mechan1k** · 16-10-2005, 02:45 AM

www.discpads.com I think are slightly cheaper (as they send them out from a warehouse)

JC · 16-10-2005, 03:10 AM

Yes, they are slightly cheaper, but postage needs to be factored in as well.

geckoGT · 16-10-2005, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stampy

im with you GECKOXR8 low end stuf mybe but ive had them on my XR6 AU1 VCT and they looked and performed well i would use them again ,
I am just about to purchase the PBR brake upgrade kit for the REBEL it's the best value for money package i can find, when ive only got 2.5k to spend. I have to do it because when i get out of the ST170 into the XR I find it very hard to pull up..

I actually have the PBR Performance set up on my XR8 and have to say it is a vast improvement over the stock BA brakes. Very happy with them and probably the best mod I have done so far. On a lighter AU they would be even better.

GK · 16-10-2005, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC-XRWgn

A pair for the front should set you back around $250 - in all my ringing around, I have found that SuperCheap are actually the cheapest supplier.

$250 for the dicss, how much do you pay for the Bendix Advance Pads JC?

Do you purchase those from Supercheap as well?

GK

parawolf · 16-10-2005, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

In the low end stuff, yes I agree but I am sure when you talk high end stuff it is a different story, just ask Porsche, Ferrari, lamborghini etc.

If you read my comment, anything from Ford Australia cross drilled is useless. But be prepared for the added expensive for using them on the street when they fracture.

Fair enough for those ultimate performance houses using them because they are looking for the ultimate performance without worrying about price. Notice that most of those applications though do not have grooving on the discs? just crossdrilled and vented? Whereas DBA do both? That doesn't make it doubly good - it's a concession to the weakness that is inherent to cross drilled for budget applications.

But still i'd prefer grooved & vented discs in 99% of sedan car applications. Biggest discs and bigger calipers under those big *** wheels please.

:

lotus · 16-10-2005, 11:21 AM

The PBR brakes would be a great improvement but I don't think PBR have made a set for the SER 1 AU'S yet. I've put on a set of DBA slotted/crossed drilled with RACE BRAKE pads and have had no trouble. Been on the track a couple of times and suffered no fade at all.
Would be nice if someone would produce something but the SER 1 seems to be the fogotten sole!

JC · 16-10-2005, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GK

$250 for the dicss, how much do you pay for the Bendix Advance Pads JC?

Do you purchase those from Supercheap as well?

GK

From memory, the advance were around $80 a set. But that was probably 15 months or so ago.

JC · 16-10-2005, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parawolf

If you read my comment, anything from Ford Australia cross drilled is useless. But be prepared for the added expensive for using them on the street when they fracture.

Fair enough for those ultimate performance houses using them because they are looking for the ultimate performance without worrying about price. Notice that most of those applications though do not have grooving on the discs? just crossdrilled and vented? Whereas DBA do both? That doesn't make it doubly good - it's a concession to the weakness that is inherent to cross drilled for budget applications.

But still i'd prefer grooved & vented discs in 99% of sedan car applications. Biggest discs and bigger calipers under those big *** wheels please.

:

parawolf, besides anecdotal evidence, do you have any real, concrete proof that cross drilled rotors crack/break etc under normal driving conditions? I doubt it. If you went racing every second week, then I could understand that heat stress etc would take it's toll more easily, but I doubt that under normal driving conditions (mix of city, country and highway duty), that the cross drilled/slotteds fare any worse than just slotteds. They are built to Australian standards and actually come with a disclaimer about using them on the track. So if you don't follow their advice and you use the brakes at race days, track meets etc, then it's on your own head. The new 4000 & 5000 series are targeted more towards track days etc, but even then, they are still based on street performance rather than out and out race applications.

I have spoken to a couple of brake places about the benefits of cross drilled, and they maintain that there are no benefits in terms of increasing braking ability (even DBA say this on their site), but in terms of looks, there is a big benefit (ie they look great). I have also been told by brake specialists that in the early days (ie about 5 or 10 years ago) of street application cross drilled brakes, that DBA did have the occasional one crack or break, but it is fairly rare in recent times - in fact it's about as common as a standard rotor cracking - which can happen, but is rare.

I think you should check the accuracy of your statements before you go turning people away from aftermarket businesses like DBA. I do not work for DBA or any other automotive manufacturer, supplier or reatiler, so I have no vested interested in defending DBA cross drilled rotors, other than to point out to people that your wild, unsubstantiated statements are untrue for street applications.

parawolf · 16-10-2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC-XRWgn

parawolf, besides anecdotal evidence, do you have any real, concrete proof that cross drilled rotors crack/break etc under normal driving conditions? I doubt it. If you went racing every second week, then I could understand that heat stress etc would take it's toll more easily, but I doubt that under normal driving conditions (mix of city, country and highway duty), that the cross drilled/slotteds fare any worse than just slotteds. They are built to Australian standards and actually come with a disclaimer about using them on the track. So if you don't follow their advice and you use the brakes at race days, track meets etc, then it's on your own head. The new 4000 & 5000 series are targeted more towards track days etc, but even then, they are still based on street performance rather than out and out race applications.

I have spoken to a couple of brake places about the benefits of cross drilled, and they maintain that there are no benefits in terms of increasing braking ability (even DBA say this on their site), but in terms of looks, there is a big benefit (ie they look great). I have also been told by brake specialists that in the early days (ie about 5 or 10 years ago) of street application cross drilled brakes, that DBA did have the occasional one crack or break, but it is fairly rare in recent times - in fact it's about as common as a standard rotor cracking - which can happen, but is rare.

I think you should check the accuracy of your statements before you go turning people away from aftermarket businesses like DBA. I do not work for DBA or any other automotive manufacturer, supplier or reatiler, so I have no vested interested in defending DBA cross drilled rotors, other than to point out to people that your wild, unsubstantiated statements are untrue for street applications.

Check the accuracy of my statements? I'm speaking from my own direct experience, research of other web sites and with brake supply companies and with what sells in actual performance cars.

If you look into it and read the servicing guidelines about cross drilled rotors, there is information about how to perform regular inspections around the holes to sand them back with fine paper in case of hairline fractures appearing. If the hairline fracture does not disappear with sanding, then the rotors are to be disposed of immediately. This is on dba's web site as well as on other suppliers web sites. How many of you that own cross drilled rotors do this hmm?

Speaking to a friend that club races an ED XR6, put cross drilled DBA rotors on, and had hairline fractures in them after driving with them on the street only, and after 3 race meets, the discs were useless. He then transferred over to the regular slotted and vented dba4000 discs, and had zero problems.

So - before Asssuming I am speaking for from ***... you could save yourself the embarasment and PM me asking for what authority I speak of first. I don't quote worthless - And besides the cross drilled DBA rotors are usually more expensive than the regular slotted and vented therefore my advise is saving consumers money too.

If you want someone to buy a product that is likely to suffer from premature failure if not looked after perfectly, offer zero benefit of performance and cost more in capital costs thats fine. Personally I prefer recommending a prduct that works and works well with minimal fuss for the dollars outlaid.

Anyway... here endeth the discussion - what to speak more on the issue PM me.

geckoGT · 16-10-2005, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lotus

The PBR brakes would be a great improvement but I don't think PBR have made a set for the SER 1 AU'S yet. I've put on a set of DBA slotted/crossed drilled with RACE BRAKE pads and have had no trouble. Been on the track a couple of times and suffered no fade at all.
Would be nice if someone would produce something but the SER 1 seems to be the fogotten sole!

I think you may ne correct, no PBR for series 1 but that raises the question of how hard it would be to upgrade to series 2 onwards.

Parawolf, I agree on the low end stuff but I made the comment due to your broadbrush remark, all cross drilled is bad is not always correct. The Brembos on GT-P, 350Z Track etc are excellent but very expensive. I realise V8Supercar uses slotted but F1 uses crossdrilled, just 2 different ways to do the same job. Another example is Brembo tends to cross drill and Alcon slot, both are awesome brakes but go about it in slightly different ways.

I have heard of DBA crossdrilled cracking at the drilling (spoken to the person that owned them, happened 12 mths ago), and as slotting works just as well, I would not put crossdrilled on my car unless it was the standard of Brembo. That is what I meant in my comparison between low and Highend gear.

parawolf · 16-10-2005, 09:23 PM

You will find that a Nissan 350Z track or 35th edition do not have cross drilled discs. They have brembo calipers yes, but they don't even have grooved disks. Yes the FPV Big Brakes are a cross drilled unit - however i'm pretty sure (75%) that they are rotors by Brembo as well - so they are sold or licenced to FPV as a package. Kinda like Dunlop tyres for Falcons.

F1 also throw out their discs after a race. So whatever they use is useless comparison to street cars - hence why I don't like it too much as a sport.

Anyway you make a good point about the comparison - I think I overlooked that - or misunderstood your context.

geckoGT · 16-10-2005, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parawolf

F1 also throw out their discs after a race. So whatever they use is useless comparison to street cars - hence why I don't like it too much as a sport.

Anyway you make a good point about the comparison - I think I overlooked that - or misunderstood your context.

I think that is the key, if you have lots of money for top gear (in the realm of $10,000) for brakes cross drilled are fine. If you are on a budget and want set and forget (so to speak), slotted are the effective and reliable solution. I know which way I went and I am very happy with them (slotted).

17-10-2005, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

I am waiting on the 330mm discs and 4-piston calipers for the AUII to be sorted out ... currently in testing at the moment ... should be well below the $2K mark ... with braided lines and installed as well.

Once Joe @ Crescent is ready with it ... I'll post up details and pics of the install.

sounds good all i can find is 2.5k packs

Mr Cube · 17-10-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

no PBR for series 1 but that raises the question of how hard it would be to upgrade to series 2 onwards.

Talk to Ferntree Gully Auto Salvage.. They will set you straight..

I got a set of Calipers/Rotors Pads and Lines off EBay for $250..

Then got Stub Axles / Lower Control Arms and Sway Bars from FTG and parts wise you are looking at about $1000 then freight cost me $70 to Canberra.

I decided too buy fresh Pads and Rotors which cost me $370 I think and I got the DBA Gold Slotted and Drilled with Bendix Advanced pads.

Going to be about $2000 all up.. Not a cheap process but now I can go the PBR Upgrade or even the setup off the GT's..

Mr Cube · 24-10-2005, 05:25 PM

Brakes happening on Wednesday.. Pics to post on Saturdays.. They should look pretty hot.. Will see if they can do the back as a straight swap.. Im not sure if they can but while the car is up on the hoist they may aswell take a look into it... Getting the front suspension hardened aswell as it considerable softer then the back and feels really ("floaty") around corners.. Then the running gear and feel of teh car will be just as I want it.. Just need the engine mods to match the looks...

Mr Cube · 07-11-2005, 12:47 PM

Just some general information - Got the brakes swapped over last week. Now got the BA setup on the AU and it stops a treat.. Coupled with the bigger slotted drilled rotors/calipers and good pads it is 100% better then it was before.

Biggest issue was the front section apparently, the backs were just a quick change over.

I know the post is pretty useless without pics and I will get some next weekend.. My wife and I spent 3.5 hours detailing my car and her ute.. Were going to get some pics and the light got the better of us..

Anyways the bigger disks now fill out the 19" rim much better and doesn't look as poxy anymore..

Plus the other advantage is I got a much greener light on engine mods now she knows the car will pull up. Downside is the next 3 mods have to be down to her car, wheels, new koni's and the DBA Gold's to go on..