Call to Arms

[Luke Plaizier]

Today some numbers have been released by the Oz Government showing how much financial assistance other manufacturers in other countries get as a measure of per-capita dollars. Here goes:

Per-Country Per-Capita government assistance to auto-industry:

Australia $17.80
Canada $96.39,
France $147.38,
Germany $90.37,
Sweden $334
UK $27
US $264.

The call to arms is - on any article where you see Bleating about the assistance provided by the Oz Government to the automotive sector in the comments section, post these figures yourself to show how little money we actually do provide to the automative sector compared to other countries. Perhaps the focus should be on having France, Germany, Canada and the US reduce their subsidies to Australian levels.... (Sweden needs theirs though)


Lukeyson

[2011G6E]

Population of these countries...even ignoring tiny Sweden and their massive subsidies?

Face facts...Oz is a tiny tiny market, with less people on our entire continent than a lot of large cities overseas. We should thank our lucky stars we even have a car industry here beyond screwing together CKD kits...

[bungarra]

Joolia and Swaney better use these figures when recalculating the help to the Oz industry.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Population of these countries...even ignoring tiny Sweden and their massive subsidies?

Face facts...Oz is a tiny tiny market, with less people on our entire continent than a lot of large cities overseas. We should thank our lucky stars we even have a car industry here beyond screwing together CKD kits...

Per-capita


Doesn't australia want to keep jobs/industry outside the mining sector?

[SM1DY]

All those other countries export cars worldwide, Australia sends the Commodore to the middle east and the caprice to the US.

[Scott]

Luke, the figures are far too simplistic to mean anything at all. For all I know, the US could be spending that much and effectively just propping up manufacturing in Thailand.

Reading through some of the informative posts on AFF, I came across one that said the Australian Government tips $3bn into the Auto Industry here each year. A quick google found that there are 50,000 employees supported by that same industry.

$3bn/50,000 people = $60,000 a head!!

Now I'm being too simplistic....

edit - based on that $3bn, divide it by our population of 22,500,000 and it works out to $133 per capita.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by bungarra

Joolia and Swaney better use these figures when recalculating the help to the Oz industry.

Its the opposition who have recently been critisizing the government for too musch support for the auto industry, and proposing the support is cut to balance the budget.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

All those other countries export cars worldwide

Exactly. You'd need to factor in how much money exports bring back in.

The big question is, how do we export again? I dont see that happening while our manufacturers are foreign owned.

[2011G6E]

The problem is that any other industry is told no support is available...the world trade organisation will take us through the world courts, it's unfair, market forces have to apply and if they can't stand on thier own two feet, too bad.
It's happened to plenty of other dinky-di Aussie true-blue industries and businesses over the years, so why doesn't the American-owned car industry here get told the same thing?

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Scott

Luke, the figures are far too simplistic to mean anything at all. For all I know, the US could be spending that much and effectively just propping up manufacturing in Thailand.

Reading through some of the informative posts on AFF, I came across one that said the Australian Government tips $3bn into the Auto Industry here each year. A quick google found that there are 50,000 employees supported by that same industry.

$3bn/50,000 people = $60,000 a head!!

Now I'm being too simplistic....

edit - based on that $3bn, divide it by our population of 22,500,000 and it works out to $133 per capita.

Without even googling I can tell you there are far more than 50,000 employees in the auto industry, in Australia. It also doesn't take into account hundreds of other small businesses that would die overnight if the big three pulled out.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by irish2

Without even googling I can tell you there are far more than 50,000 employees in the auto industry, in Australia.

The ~50,000 incorporates Vehicle Manufacturers and Component Manufacturers. No idea who is or is not included from there.

http://www.innovation.gov.au/Industr...istics2010.pdf

[XRtowcar]

Why dont the government just give ten grand to a purchaser of an Australian built car. At least it wont get squirrelled away to help the overseas parent show a profit.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Scott

The ~50,000 incorporates Vehicle Manufacturers and Component Manufacturers. No idea who is or is not included from there.

http://www.innovation.gov.au/Industr...istics2010.pdf

Your own link shows the employment at ~59,000. That is roughly 1% of employees within Australia. That figure alone would be a massive hit. Our resources industry only employs ~200,000, yet we rave on about it being an ecconomic saviour.

[GT-E]

Why subsidise an industry that is non-viable. I support made in australia, but cannot understand why we are designing and building cars that are have very little demand. While I know I will get flamed because of this viewpoint, surely there are better places to spend money to encourage industry that can stand on their own 2 feet and make money, not be a "Manufacturing Dole Bludger" and make all of us pay for their inability to make a profit.

I would rather see my tax dollars going into developing new technologies. Just look at Mitsubishi, they were subsidised, given grants and tax brakes and still buggered off.
Unfortunately I see our local car makers dying a slow death as we all switch to more efficient car makers.

[.FoMoCo.]

I say bring back protection for Australian manufacturing. The "good old days" of Australian auto industry were characterized by heavy tarrifs on imports. It's all very well to say " if they can't stand on their own 2 feet, they shouldn't be in existence" but the reality is the rest of the world is heavily protected.
How in God's name can we seriously compete with the likes of great wall and chery, when the people who are manufacturing them live on a tiny wage? That is not a level playing field, and to say "too bad we need to be more efficient" is another way of saying we need to reduce wages. Isn't it?
I need someone here to explain why we need zero protection for our industries when the rest of the civilized world sees a need.
The way manufacturing in Australia is headed, we will all be working in I.T., banking, or services in 20 years. Is this really the path we want to head down?

[Bossxr8]

The government definately needs to do more to protect the industry from imports. All the other countries find ways to protect their own, why don't we.

I'm noit saying tariffs, I think they are banned under FTA's, but put some kind of dis-incentive in place.

Brazil for example says if you want to import into our country, you have to buy something off of us in return. BMW for example have been buying and importing Brazillian wine into Germany to be able to sell cars in Brazil.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The government definately needs to do more to protect the industry from imports.

Get the exchange rate down.

[Luke Plaizier]

So of pretty much all countries that make cars from conception to registration, we make the smallest amount, sell to the smallest number of customers, have the lowest exports, get the smallest assistance from the government, have the largest number of market competitors, have the lowest import tariffs and for the most part, STILL stay afloat and make a profit from time to time.

I say Australian automotive manufacturing is awesome.

Surely it's not a wages issue. Wages in Germany, England, France, Canada and Japan aren't sweat-shop low are they?


Lukeyson

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

All those other countries export cars worldwide, Australia sends the Commodore to the middle east and the caprice to the US.

Exactly.

Wonder how relative those subsidies by other countries are to the tax/income brought in by those makes. I.e. within Germany how much does BMW, Audi, Mercedes and VW bring in compared to what is subsidised?

what kind of subsidies do they offer? Tax breaks? Innovation incentives?
I know we offered the green car fund which I applauded, it gave incentive to innovate not just hand out money to bring out the same rubbish all the time.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by GT-E

Why subsidise an industry that is non-viable. I support made in australia, but cannot understand why we are designing and building cars that are have very little demand. .

So we shouldnt support Farming then? Should we just import our Food from China?

Alot more money has been thrown into the Farming industry than the Auto industry.

[Luke Plaizier]

Oops.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Today some numbers have been released by the Oz Government showing how much financial assistance other manufacturers in other countries get as a measure of per-capita dollars. Here goes:

Per-Country Per-Capita government assistance to auto-industry:

Australia $17.80
Canada $96.39,
France $147.38,
Germany $90.37,
Sweden $334
UK $27
US $264.

The call to arms is - on any article where you see Bleating about the assistance provided by the Oz Government to the automotive sector in the comments section, post these figures yourself to show how little money we actually do provide to the automative sector compared to other countries. Perhaps the focus should be on having France, Germany, Canada and the US reduce their subsidies to Australian levels.... (Sweden needs theirs though)


Lukeyson

I'll sign up to that idea. At least it will give the 'journalists' some food for thought.

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

So of pretty much all countries that make cars from conception to registration, we make the smallest amount, sell to the smallest number of customers, have the lowest exports, get the smallest assistance from the government, have the largest number of market competitors, have the lowest import tariffs and for the most part, STILL stay afloat and make a profit from time to time.

I say Australian automotive manufacturing is awesome.

Surely it's not a wages issue. Wages in Germany, England, France, Canada and Japan aren't sweat-shop low are they?


Lukeyson

For those criticising the lack of exports. We also need to consider that it is import replacing. That in itself is a pretty darn important thing. We can't all be miners, farmers, baristas and consumers. We need to make goods.

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by irish2

Your own link shows the employment at ~59,000. That is roughly 1% of employees within Australia. That figure alone would be a massive hit. Our resources industry only employs ~200,000, yet we rave on about it being an ecconomic saviour.

Mining is our economic saviour not just because of the jobs but because when they spend money its not small change.
If the government were propping up the local manufacturers as much as the other countries maybe we would be exporting alot of cars.
They either need to protect the industry or support it with hand outs

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by irish2

Without even googling I can tell you there are far more than 50,000 employees in the auto industry, in Australia. It also doesn't take into account hundreds of other small businesses that would die overnight if the big three pulled out.

Just out of interest, could you possibly tells us where those more than 50,000 people are employed in auto manufacturing (please feel free to use google). I am always interested to know how 50,000 plus people on an average of $50,000 per year, are only able to make 220,000 cars per year (4.4 per person).

Even allowing an average wholesale price of $28000 per car, that equates to $123,000 per employee per year. Doesnt seem to be a very productive industry.

The only reason why anyone would "Call for arms" would be to enable them to pull their heads out of the sand.

[.FoMoCo.]

Maybe its not all about the economy, maybe there is more to a huge manufacturing sector than how much money it can produce in profit? Look at the intellectual investment, fostering young engineers, designers etc. Does everything in this world now have to generate positive income to be worthwhile? Australian engineering has a long a proud history and to cut the ropes on the industry purely from a numbers standpoint is surely a shallow view on things?

[aualright]

Very interesting figures.

It is a fine balancing act, where you can't please everyone. Lower tariffs have made us more competitive and efficient and we now make much better quality vehicles because we were forced to.

However, the industry still needs govt assistance in various forms to ensure it continues to grow and innovate (and perhaps survive).

How much assistance? Nobody (including govt) knows.

****

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

All those other countries export cars worldwide, Australia sends the Commodore to the middle east and the caprice to the US.

...and exports twice as many Camrys as are sold here too.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by .FoMoCo.

I say bring back protection for Australian manufacturing. The "good old days" of Australian auto industry were characterized by heavy tarrifs on imports. It's all very well to say " if they can't stand on their own 2 feet, they shouldn't be in existence" but the reality is the rest of the world is heavily protected.
How in God's name can we seriously compete with the likes of great wall and chery, when the people who are manufacturing them live on a tiny wage? That is not a level playing field, and to say "too bad we need to be more efficient" is another way of saying we need to reduce wages. Isn't it?
I need someone here to explain why we need zero protection for our industries when the rest of the civilized world sees a need.
The way manufacturing in Australia is headed, we will all be working in I.T., banking, or services in 20 years. Is this really the path we want to head down?

"Heavily protect them" like "the good old days"...yep...the good old days when Aussie car makers knew damn well they could be lazy and produce any old under-equipped rubbish of a pretty low standard, knowing that imports which were usually much better screwed together and better equipped would be priced out of competition by a protective government.

Does anyone honestly think that Australian-made cars would be equipped and made as well as they are if they hadn't had to face stiff competition from cheaper overseas cars that had twice the standard equipment levels? Look at most American cars...they're "heavily protected" and are, to be blunt, built down to a price and mostly look good, but inside are acres of cheap flimsy plastic and certainly don't have a quality feel to them....but they don't have to...they know that a captive audience of patriotic Yanks will buy any old crap they churn out, because they are well protected by government policy and it's "Made In the USA!!"...

That's the way to make them face the reality of the hard cold world...

[FG_Frodza]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Population of these countries...even ignoring tiny Sweden and their massive subsidies?

Face facts...Oz is a tiny tiny market, with less people on our entire continent than a lot of large cities overseas. We should thank our lucky stars we even have a car industry here beyond screwing together CKD kits...

Australia has a population of 20 million.

We are in the top 30% in the world for population size.

The only city with a population greater than Australia is Tokyo (32 million).

Per capita we have the 6th largest car market in the world.

I wouldn't call Australia a 'tiny tiny' market.
Yes it may be tiny compared to the USA and China and the, but compared to the rest of the world our market is quite large...

Just thought I would add some perspective.

[Ducati888]

The other way to capture the Yanks is for manufacturers such as Toyota & Honda to manufacture in the USA. The cars are way better, production more streamlined and quality far, far better than the indigenous brands, and people buy them because they are made locally.

That is less the case here, where for some reason Ford & Holden seem to be seen as "Australian" and Mitsubishi & Toyota were/are seen as Japanese imports.

To this day, I believe the other three Aussie manufacturers conspired to help the media kill off Mitsubishi. That was a big shame. Now they reap what they sow.

Finally, what percentage of Commodore, Cruze, Statesman, Commo Utes, Falcon, Falcon Ute, Territory & Camry are made from locally manufactured components versus imported components? Our car manufacturers pretty much assemble cars from a bulk of imported materials, to global designs.

Where's the innovation?