Holden on the verge of closing Australian plants

[BroadyFord]

Fresh concerns this morning:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/bre...-1226676573288

THE South Australian government says it has real concerns that car maker Holden could announce the closure of its local assembly operations before the end of the year.

The company is in the process of axing 400 jobs at its Adelaide operations and is negotiating with the remaining 1700 staff on ways to slash costs, including possible wage cuts.

Holden says it must reduce the cost of building cars in Australia to remain viable and must also secure continuing financial assistance from state and federal governments.

But South Australian Industry Minister Tom Kenyon said ongoing negotiations for the provision of federal funds and the risk that a coalition government could reduce assistance, raised real concerns for the future of the company.

Mr Kenyon said closure of Holden's local operations would be a bad result for South Australia and a bad result for Australian manufacturing.

"I am taking the possibility of a closure very, very seriously," he told reporters on Tuesday.

"This is not some idle threat, this is not some game they are playing to try to screw more money out of the government.

"This is a genuine commercial position that they are in forced by all number of factors."

Mr Kenyon said Premier Jay Weatherill would consider making a trip to Detroit to speak with General Motors (GM) officials if that would help secure ongoing investment.

He said the state government also remained committed to doing whatever it could to secure the company's future but expected Holden to make a decision on its future "purely on logistics".

"If Holden can make cars profitably in this country, they will continue to do so," he said.

[stazza]

Sweet. Won't have to listen to holden bogans bagging out fords decision anymore.

sucks for the employees. But **** holedung.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by stazza

Sweet. Won't have to listen to holden bogans bagging out fords decision anymore.

sucks for the employees. But **** holedung.

sweet? so it was sweet Ford closed too?
How is sweet that any company closes it doors in AU?

There is a very small minority of people that cling to the Ford vs Holden thing, a small closed minded group of which you are obviously a part of.
The market has moved on from that and so have the companies.

[zilo]

I think they are in trouble if they think they have any chance of federal funding.

When he was in Geelong a little while ago I heard Tony say he drives a Territory.

So Holden haven't got a chance.

[wrongwaynorris]

Originally Posted by zilo

I think they are in trouble if they think they have any chance of federal funding.

When he was in Geelong a little while ago I heard Tony say he drives a Territory.

So Holden haven't got a chance.

He also has an immaculate Rover P6 3500 .

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by stazza

Sweet. Won't have to listen to holden bogans bagging out fords decision anymore.

sucks for the employees. But **** holedung.

Sorry mate, but narrow minded comments like that won't get you any respect from me. Australian industry as a whole is in trouble and it will affect us all.

[wrongwaynorris]

Originally Posted by Wretched

sweet? so it was sweet Ford closed too?
How is sweet that any company closes it doors in AU?

There is a very small minority of people that cling to the Ford vs Holden thing, a small closed minded group of which you are obviously a part of.
The market has moved on from that and so have the companies.

As is evidenced by this .

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...sions/2083485/

[stazza]

Originally Posted by Wretched

sweet? so it was sweet Ford closed too?
How is sweet that any company closes it doors in AU?

There is a very small minority of people that cling to the Ford vs Holden thing, a small closed minded group of which you are obviously a part of.
The market has moved on from that and so have the companies.

Well obviously being in the small close minded minority I am gutted about Fords recent announcement.

It's us closed minded small minority that bought Fords through thick and thin, despite it not having parking assist or a really cool electronic hand brake. The open minded blokes jump ship at the drop of a hat. That's cool with me, each to their own. But I'm not gonna lie that I couldn't give a **** if Holden closed it's doors. The sooner the better. Maybe then we could log on to a Ford forum and actually read about Fords.

[kypez]

This is really bad news! As I've asked people who continue to bag out Aussie made goods, if you dont buy Australian, why do you expect overseas companies to "buy" Australian?! Given a lot of us are employed by Australian divisions of overseas companies. Wonder how much a Mazda 3 is going to cost once the dollar slips further?

I wish Holden and Ford could co-develop a model here. Bit like the Subaru-Toyota BRZ/86. I know they are share holders in the company and its different, but maybe like Ford and GM are now working together to build gearboxes (the 9 and 10 speed box), why cant Ford and Holden Australia work together to build a car or more components together to reduce cost for one another?

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by stazza

Well obviously being in the small close minded minority I am gutted about Fords recent announcement.

It's us closed minded small minority that bought Fords through thick and thin, despite it not having parking assist or a really cool electronic hand brake. The open minded blokes jump ship at the drop of a hat. That's cool with me, each to their own. But I'm not gonna lie that I couldn't give a **** if Holden closed it's doors. The sooner the better. Maybe then we could log on to a Ford forum and actually read about Fords.

Wow, strange outlook. "We" bought Fords because they were good value cars, had V8s, had inline 6 turbos etc.
What, and you think talking about Holden local manufacturing has no place here? I also hope no one close to you works in the automotive manufacturing industry dude if you are looking forward to Holden shutting its doors.

[mik]

If the dollar goes down to 0.80 c and stays there will that save holden?? Any predictions ?? One of the problems I see is with the low dollar is the effect on fuel price, if the fuel price goes up as with the stuff that's not made here in Australia(just about everything), big cars may take a further hit in sales ??

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by stazza

Well obviously being in the small close minded minority I am gutted about Fords recent announcement.

It's us closed minded small minority that bought Fords through thick and thin, despite it not having parking assist or a really cool electronic hand brake. The open minded blokes jump ship at the drop of a hat. That's cool with me, each to their own. But I'm not gonna lie that I couldn't give a **** if Holden closed it's doors. The sooner the better. Maybe then we could log on to a Ford forum and actually read about Fords.

You clearly aren't Australian in any way!! Neither a nice person I might add. How people losing their jobs could be good is beyond me!!

[fte50]

Originally Posted by stazza

Sweet. Won't have to listen to holden bogans bagging out fords decision anymore.

sucks for the employees. But **** holedung.

Well, should GMH retain its manufacturing operations, perhaps just one day your child, grandchildren or friend might actually have an opportunity at gaining a skill & having a rewarding job.

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by mik

If the dollar goes down to 0.80 c and stays there will that save holden?? Any predictions ?? One of the problems I see is with the low dollar is the effect on fuel price, if the fuel price goes up as with the stuff that's not made here in Australia(just about everything), big cars may take a further hit in sales ??

Well, the lower AUD will help with exports, so hopefully gives them some greater profitability with their export programme.

Fuel price is another issue which is BS!!!!
Did fuel price drop significantly when the AUD was US$1.10? No.
So why now are the petrol companies claiming there'll be a spike in fuel prices now?? Greedy pigs.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by stazza

Well obviously being in the small close minded minority I am gutted about Fords recent announcement.

It's us closed minded small minority that bought Fords through thick and thin, despite it not having parking assist or a really cool electronic hand brake. The open minded blokes jump ship at the drop of a hat. That's cool with me, each to their own. But I'm not gonna lie that I couldn't give a **** if Holden closed it's doors. The sooner the better. Maybe then we could log on to a Ford forum and actually read about Fords.

Ford are still selling, actually their sales are up compared to this time last year.
If you're referring to Falcon, it was the fleets keeping them alive for all those years.
The open minded were that, they treat the purchase of a car seriously and buy something that ticks all the required boxes and not compromise because of some blind loyalty.
It is sad that you couldn't care less about Holden closing, like Ford in AU they have been an icon that have employed many people.
I personally have no emotional tie to Falcon or Commodore, I just would have liked to have seen both move with the times about 10 years ago and not wait till the 11th hour.

I really hope your industry and that of anyone else you know do not have links to the automotive industry...you may change your tone if so.

It is still a Ford forum (not a Falcon forum), this is the General Automotive section that can have any non ford related items in there. All threads are clearly marked so the onus is on you to which thread you read. You choose which one you want to read you didn't have to come in here. So why did you if you're not interested in news about other items except Falcon?

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by mik

If the dollar goes down to 0.80 c and stays there will that save holden?? Any predictions ?? One of the problems I see is with the low dollar is the effect on fuel price, if the fuel price goes up as with the stuff that's not made here in Australia(just about everything), big cars may take a further hit in sales ??

maybe changing perceptions of them being massive fuel guzzlers would help, I hear people carrying on all about that then buy an older 4 cyl that chews more fuel, but that's ok coz "it's really good on fuel"

And if patriotism and buying Australian first isn't cool, something needs to be done to make the competition harder to buy end of story.If need be tax them then use that money to help our industry, pretty simple

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by tezxr8man

maybe changing perceptions of them being massive fuel guzzlers would help, I hear people carrying on all about that then buy an older 4 cyl that chews more fuel, but that's ok coz "it's really good on fuel"

And if patriotism and buying Australian first isn't cool, something needs to be done to make the competition harder to buy end of story.If need be tax them then use that money to help our industry, pretty simple

Or here is a bright idea, how about Ford and Holden adapt to the changes in the market and build a product that will sell.
Just have a look at the sales charts to see how far off Ford and Holden are with what they have been pushing to the public.

They want to continue selling large cars only then what have they done in the last 5 years that has really encouraged people to buy them? Ford introduced EcoBoost, great idea but way too late. Should have done it earlier, look at overseas and how early other makes had been downsizing engines, becoming more efficient, trying to attract buyers.
Ford and Holden were caught napping and now they're paying for it. You snooze you lose.

We the consumer should not have to be punished to protect companies that have a long history of selling a product, a car. they should be able to use all those billions of dollars they earn to fire up the product research and development teams to go out and oh i don't know earn their $$ and do the hard yards. You never know it may pay off and they may sell some cars. Ford did it once, it worked, the product, Territory. What have they done since? Nothing, they left it for 6 years before putting in a diesel that everyone wanted years before and just gave it a facelift. The innovation isn't there anymore, so what do they expect?

[mikeeman_ford]

I try and buy parts from aussie companies, keep aussie jobs. Sad if Holden go too.

My friend suggested that the falcon and commodoore could be a made to order luxury car.

so the brand will survive. Like the UK companies that all failed, the Jag and Aston are still in the game, luxury car, niche market.

Perhaps HSV and FPV can still do a custom ordered Taurus (falcon) RWD beast. Let the legend live on.

It will cost more, but people will still buy the re-worked FPV Taurus.

Eventually demands will increase, and they will start producing them again.

Always look for Aussie made/sourced parts where possible. Even if the guy is a re-seller, that is still jobs in distribution.

For the record, i like the look of the taurus

[steve.zissou]

I love Australian made cars but a car plant in Australia just isn’t viable - unless we subsidise the crap out of it - and that’s a choice we have to make)

With global transport so cheap and easy - it is a no brainer to centralise your car manufacturing operations. GM are going to build cars where its best for them and then build as many as possible to get economies of scale and efficiencies.

GM has no reason to build a car in Australia. Even if they were Australian owned they have an obligation to shareholders and would produce where ever they could do it best and cheapest.

The only exception to this is if Australians only wanted to buy Australian made cars (not going to happen unfortunately)

And to everyone that says Holden and ford should focus on building small cars that the market wants - WRONG!!!
That’s a market that Toyota, Mitsubishi, Honda, Hyundai etc do very well - you think Holden could do better than these guys???? No way
What they should do, is built upon their strengths - which is large rear wheel drive cars - but unfortunately manufacturing here won’t happen long term as per the reasons above.

the only thing that would keep manufacturing here, would be if Holden Aus was primarily privately owned by someone with half a brain and this owner/s put in place a long term strategy of building a car building empire - think AUS version of BMW or Mercedes but Australians don’t have that level of entrepreneurship any more - its easier to just get a job, preferably with the govt

[jpd80]

As to the opening post, I think Holden has been on the verge of closing for
almost as long as Ford Australia - it's just that a lot of people didn't know it...

Holden relied on "safety in numbers" but if the bottom line costs are high,
no volume of sales will ever overcome that problem.

Not wishing bad on Holden but without significant reduction in cost structure,
they may in fact wind up ops just as quick as Ford due to greater expenditure.
I don't see that happening before Holden recovers revenue from VF to cover that cost.

[SB076]

Not good, once you lose an industry (in this case automotive) if the worst comes to the worst, you will never get it back. Start up and investment costs are just too high, not to mention loss of necessary skills etc

Its not easy for Ford/Holden or Toyota to manufacture different cars, the R&D costs etc are huge and they somehow need to get that money back. You can build CKD cars but that doesn't provide a lot of job/employment opportunities.

Ideally you need to be able to export and sadly we don't have a level playing field which makes this difficult.

[Guzz226]

I wonder about the timing and how much of this is trying to take advantage of the coming Federal Elections as well as the recent Ford decisions. Given relatively recent EBA and the new model that they are working overtime to ensure supply is this knee jerk stuff? Political? Or genuine?

Said another way, if Ford were continuing and there was no Federal Election would Holden be doing this?

Either way not good for those whose income is at stake.

[Pepscobra]

Yes, some of this is Holden using the media to force the hand of the Government leading into the election, getting them to commit to further funding.

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Or here is a bright idea, how about Ford and Holden adapt to the changes in the market and build a product that will sell.
Just have a look at the sales charts to see how far off Ford and Holden are with what they have been pushing to the public.

They want to continue selling large cars only then what have they done in the last 5 years that has really encouraged people to buy them? Ford introduced EcoBoost, great idea but way too late. Should have done it earlier, look at overseas and how early other makes had been downsizing engines, becoming more efficient, trying to attract buyers.
Ford and Holden were caught napping and now they're paying for it. You snooze you lose.

We the consumer should not have to be punished to protect companies that have a long history of selling a product, a car. they should be able to use all those billions of dollars they earn to fire up the product research and development teams to go out and oh i don't know earn their $$ and do the hard yards. You never know it may pay off and they may sell some cars. Ford did it once, it worked, the product, Territory. What have they done since? Nothing, they left it for 6 years before putting in a diesel that everyone wanted years before and just gave it a facelift. The innovation isn't there anymore, so what do they expect?

where do you think they will get the dollars to do this if people aren't buying their cars?? it's not like they haven't made smaller cars here before either, Laser, Gemini Torana, corolla etc and these stopped getting made here because the rules changed and it was cheaper to get them made overseas and ship them here. and also holden still makes the cruse here too and isn't that at a loss?
something needs to change in this country so the manufacturers here can be flexible and change with the market and it costs money to do that. at the moment the only option for them is to pull out, and look at what's happening

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by tezxr8man

where do you think they will get the dollars to do this if people aren't buying their cars?? it's not like they haven't made smaller cars here before either, Laser, Gemini Torana, corolla etc and these stopped getting made here because the rules changed and it was cheaper to get them made overseas and ship them here. and also holden still makes the cruse here too and isn't that at a loss?
something needs to change in this country so the manufacturers here can be flexible and change with the market and it costs money to do that. at the moment the only option for them is to pull out, and look at what's happening

I understand it costs $$ but every company has costs associated with running their business and ensuring it aligns with the changing market.
If they can't sell their product then there is an issue with the product or the way it is being sold.
Therefore that company should be looking at ways to resolve those issues, whether the product needs to be adjusted (smaller and efficient engines, better quality, etc) and or better marketed (better ads highlighting the benefits and features, thinking outside of the traditional marketing methods, product placement, focus groups, etc). Really these are multi billion dollar organisations that are world wide (or in the case local arms of these large companies). They have the resources they just need to do the hard yards. Yes it costs money but you have to spend some to make some. In the end are they not in business to make cars?

Like i have said, Ford have done it in the past, they had a lightbulb moment when they developed Territory but they never went further than that. I don't know (and don't care) if it is Ford AU or Ford NA, it is a Ford issue, their product is on the nose a no amount of taxing will fix that. You tax people more and you really think they will buy local? Hell no they will resent Ford and Holden even more.

The government needs to also change the way this country accommodates manufacturing and engineering (actually all industries), there is no point handing out cash to companies cause didn't work. They need to adjust their business policies to make it more attractive to do business in AU, to give assistance not blindly but as a co investment, i.e developing a medium car from scratch (for example), that the more the company invests in various fields (i.e. engineering, manufacturing, etc) the more assistance they get. The less they invest (i.e. just CKD) the less they receive. You cannot keep going relying soley on government handouts, if that is the case then the business model is wrong and they may as well sell the business to the government.

We won't go into the changes required in remuneration but that needs to be looked at and the basic cost of living. All this contributes to companies looking at AU as a minefield of redtape and costs.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Wretched

I understand it costs $$ but every company has costs associated with running their business and ensuring it aligns with the changing market.
If they can't sell their product then there is an issue with the product or the way it is being sold.
Therefore that company should be looking at ways to resolve those issues, whether the product needs to be adjusted (smaller and efficient engines, better quality, etc) and or better marketed (better ads highlighting the benefits and features, thinking outside of the traditional marketing methods, product placement, focus groups, etc). Really these are multi billion dollar organisations that are world wide (or in the case local arms of these large companies). They have the resources they just need to do the hard yards. Yes it costs money but you have to spend some to make some. In the end are they not in business to make cars?

Like i have said, Ford have done it in the past, they had a lightbulb moment when they developed Territory but they never went further than that. I don't know (and don't care) if it is Ford AU or Ford NA, it is a Ford issue, their product is on the nose a no amount of taxing will fix that. You tax people more and you really think they will buy local? Hell no they will resent Ford and Holden even more.

The government needs to also change the way this country accommodates manufacturing and engineering (actually all industries), there is no point handing out cash to companies cause didn't work. They need to adjust their business policies to make it more attractive to do business in AU, to give assistance not blindly but as a co investment, i.e developing a medium car from scratch (for example), that the more the company invests in various fields (i.e. engineering, manufacturing, etc) the more assistance they get. The less they invest (i.e. just CKD) the less they receive. You cannot keep going relying soley on government handouts, if that is the case then the business model is wrong and they may as well sell the business to the government.

We won't go into the changes required in remuneration but that needs to be looked at and the basic cost of living. All this contributes to companies looking at AU as a minefield of redtape and costs.

Th big problem is that after doing all that you say, the opportunity cost of manufacturing in Australia
is still more expensive than say, Thailand. Worse than that, the market just doesn't value made in Australia anymore.

[Trump]

Even though Joe Sixpack only sees no local Fords (and eventually Holdens), the reality is, the end of car manufacturing in Australia is symptomatic of the real problems Australia faces. Not only that, most don't realise the repurcussions of the end of local car manufacturing. The component and associated industries that will close when Ford, Holden and Toyota shut shop will put near on 200,000 people out of work. Those are people that short of some miracle, won't be employable in the service industry.

We will not survive as a nation if we become a purely service based economy.

[Rodge]

Those with an open mind might be pondering...seeing as Ford is closing manufacturing down and that's an absolute certainty, if Holden can get their act together and reduce costs and gather sufficient Govt support to continue, maybe, just maybe those who value Australian production and high performance Australian made vehicles should swing in behind Holden / HSV and buy one ???

If you take your blue glasses off, can I be so bold as to suggest the HSV GTS actually looks like a pretty good bit of kit

[Blue_XR]

I think the interesting thing here is the actual volume of cars they are producing. When you look at the top selling car which is the Mazda 3 it is only selling 40,000 units per annum and that is the top selling car. Now compare that to the falcon and commodore in the early 2000's. As others have said, we are becoming the dumping ground of the world. Australian's have far more choice now. Small cars are loaded with features and people are buying what suits their needs.

Now lets look at the volume of commodores Holden produce. If they are only making around 30,000-40,000 units per annum for consumption on the domestic market then that is not enough to justify producing another commodore after the VF. GM will have to look at the costs involved. I do not know the numbers however it doesn't seem like the return on investment is there.

Now if GM wanted to push the merits of the car, there is no reason they couldn't find other markets around the globe that might want a large RWD. Obviously it has to have the features to match. If they could find, for arguments sake 10 other countries and sell 10,000 units on average in each of those countries then the car starts to make sense again. So Holden would be producing around 140,000 units per annum. I'm sure that would open the way for a better commodore and another model in the future. Then their future would not be in doubt. Let it be a niche car however let it play on the world stage.

I wish Ford Australia and Ford HQ looked at the above route. It would be nice to be able to buy a large RWD car that doesn't have the cost a Mercedes Benz and BMW have. If Ford want the 'One Ford' strategy for all, then they should be able to offer a sedan that sits above the Fusion/Mondeo. There is no reason why the falcon could not have been developed for the world market, with real development dollars.

I'm sure there are other markets with the right diesel and efficient petrol engines that the cars would be accepted in.

Now that I think about it, if you take the falcon/territory/ute sales from last months tally, Ford Australia becomes a small player in the Australian car scene.

I do not want to see Australian manufacturing disappear, however with the amount of sales the cars are generating I see it becoming a sad reality.

I am not familiar with the manufacturing process, however maybe if Ford and Holden kept in updating their plants then they might not have had the high costs as more of the car making process would have been automated.

These are just my thoughts.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Even though Joe Sixpack only sees no local Fords (and eventually Holdens), the reality is, the end of car manufacturing in Australia is symptomatic of the real problems Australia faces. Not only that, most don't realise the repurcussions of the end of local car manufacturing. The component and associated industries that will close when Ford, Holden and Toyota shut shop will put near on 200,000 people out of work. Those are people that short of some miracle, won't be employable in the service industry.

We will not survive as a nation if we become a purely service based economy.

I would say that most of those component jobs are already gone, look at the volumes
of parts actually imported by Holden and Ford from their Asia Pacific suppliers.
That change happened so gradually over the past decade that most missed it so what's
actually happening now is that Ford and Holden are importing mostly Asian parts to assemble here...