TRD Aurion comparable to XR6T ?

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

BMW have been saying exactly that for years.

They only recently decided to make a FWD car to have something to compete with the masses of cheaper to manufacture FWD cars on the market.

Actually who is the clown who invented FWD. Surely putting the engine in the rear would be less complex as no steering involved, shorter fuel lines, shorter exhaust pipes and less power loss?

[b0son]

Can you say lift-off oversteer?

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Actually who is the clown who invented FWD. Surely putting the engine in the rear would be less complex as no steering involved, shorter fuel lines, shorter exhaust pipes and less power loss?

It's been done




Didn't go so well... Have you heard of the book "Unsafe at Any Speed"?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by zilo

All you boys who bag FWD cars better get with the program

Unless you plan on driving old falcons with 400 zillion kilometres on them for the rest of your life then you better suck it up.

Ford and Holden will be all front wheel drive, forget all wheel drive it ain't gonna happen...the world wants fuel economy with cheap manufacturing costs and some mild performance.

Cough, Mustang, cough

[Maka]

Originally Posted by shaness8

The Toyota Aurion TRD never had electric power steering

Boson was commenting on Sportivo, so standard Aurions got it - "the adoption of electric power steering – mounted to the steering column to improve feel – enabled Toyota to reduce parking steering effort while providing a heavier, more direct feel when travelling at speed" (from GO Auto).

I wasnt sure 100% the TRD got it, though they have the same steering rack.

cheers, Maka

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Falcman0o7

What guy would that be?

I believe Zilo has a 380 making decent power at and around 700nm at the front wheels.

[Falcman0o7]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I believe Zilo has a 380 making decent power at and around 700nm at the front wheels.

700? Impressive

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

It's been done

image


Didn't go so well... Have you heard of the book "Unsafe at Any Speed"?

Death trap ....

[Rev28K]

We need FWD's - they made Toyota MR2's, Pontiac Fiero's, Fiat X1/9's, Lotus Elise/Exige & Lotus Evora's economically viable.

(As a former owner of FWD and RWD cars there is nothing wrong with a properly developed small FWD car. I once knew a guy who got out of his RWD V8 Lexus IS-F to get back in to his previous TRD Aurion)

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Death trap ....

Anyone care to elaborate why?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Anyone care to elaborate why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed

In essence, the first generation Corvair had tricky handling which some claimed made it more likely to be crashed. GM copped a lot of lawsuits over said crashes (over 100).

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Actually who is the clown who invented FWD. Surely putting the engine in the rear would be less complex as no steering involved, shorter fuel lines, shorter exhaust pipes and less power loss?

Clown? surely your just stirring

[Alan D Segal]

FWD became more popular in the 70s and 80s as there was a push to make smaller, more compact cars. Or so I understand from some book I read back then. I think it was called What Car? or something like that. Rumour has it they weren't originally intended for optimum performance.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

FWD became more popular in the 70s and 80s as there was a push to make smaller, more compact cars. Or so I understand from some book I read back then. I think it was called What Car? or something like that. Rumour has it they weren't originally intended for optimum performance.

Yeah that's my understanding as well. Front wheel drive has many great benefits;

Liberates more interior space
Lighter construction
Cheaper construction
More fuel efficient.

Rear wheel drive doesn't really offer many advantages over FWD at all, except they make for a superior driver/performance car. (all other things being equal)

[geckoGT]

The original Mini in 1959 really was the pioneer of the modern FWD system, the format gave the ability to use so much more interior space and make the external dimensions so much smaller. The Mini took it even further than modern FWD in that the transmission was integral to the crankcase of the engine.

Interestingly the Mini went on to have giant killing performance and handling due to low mass, low C of G and a wide track. So much for the idea that no FWD has good handling.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Yeah that's my understanding as well. Front wheel drive has many great benefits;

Liberates more interior space
Lighter construction
Cheaper construction
More fuel efficient.

Rear wheel drive doesn't really offer many advantages over FWD at all, except they make for a superior driver/performance car. (all other things being equal)

FWD cars are also safer in cold climates, in snow and ice countries such as the US and europe, the steered wheels cant lock up as they do in a RWD car.

I can get up and down at Mt Hotham in my FWD without chains on, in the Ford on the way down, the front wheels just lockup right away and no steering...bang...straight into the guard rail.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by b0son

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed

In essence, the first generation Corvair had tricky handling which some claimed made it more likely to be crashed. GM copped a lot of lawsuits over said crashes (over 100).

Only tricky handling because they didnt put a sway bar on the base model to cut cost.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

It's been done

image


Didn't go so well... Have you heard of the book "Unsafe at Any Speed"?

The Tatra from the Czech republic weren't bad, engine at the back and rwd.

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by methodx

the tatra from the czech republic weren't bad, engine at the back and rwd.

Attachment 84511

[SensationFG8]

Technically the 4s is awd not rwd

[Taily]

Originally Posted by zilo

FWD cars are also safer in cold climates, in snow and ice countries such as the US and europe, the steered wheels cant lock up as they do in a RWD car.

I can get up and down at Mt Hotham in my FWD without chains on, in the Ford on the way down, the front wheels just lockup right away and no steering...bang...straight into the guard rail.

Only to a point. Then your Ford is/was not aligned or set up properly or you are just plainly not driving to suit the conditions but FWD and RWD both have their plusses and minuses in that scenario. Before you start laughing I'll set the record straight. I've owned many front wheel, all wheel, and rear wheel drive cars, utes, 4WDs etc since buying my first car (a Mazda R100) in 1985. I've either raced, dragged or at least modded in some way every single car (of the 25 odd) I've ever owned in this time and I'll say at the outset that FWD is only marginally better in slippery conditions heading downhill, now lets turn around and head uphill around a corner - where FWD is at its weakest in the slippery stuff.

In your 380 you're left behind (I speak from experience my wife owned one from new in 2005, was a brilliant car but I was well aware of its shortcomings)... Anyone wanting to doubt this should think about a FWD trying to tow a boat up a mossy, slippery ramp or driving up a steep hill and going around a roundabout with said trailer behind. Up until very recently you couldn't put any more than around 150-170KW/Tonne powerloading through a well sorted FWD system before you started running to the edge of adhesion issues with the tyres. Modern Stability and Traction systems have alieviated much of this - see the latest GTI for a well thought out front end when driven hard against the Type R, but they cannot completely eliminate weight transfer.

Your 380 putting 700nm through the front end sounds great (what rods are you running?) but don't kid yourself, in very fast cornering with a (real) mid corner upset, you're heading bush in the 380 unless you've come up with a brilliant new traction control system for it or are running AWD or at least -3 deg Neg camber and running slicks... The moment you distort that contact patch of your front tyres you're fighting a losing battle to regain it and put power down at the same time through the one axle group.

They are a great all round car for everyday Joe - I gotta be honest the 380 was well ahead of the NA 6 BF falcon in most things including build quality, refinement, general handling and a sweet sweet donk etc but pushed hard the pendulum swings towards RWD for tractability, ease of power delivery and general predictability when pushed hard.

I am well aware of arguments for and against but the biggest comparison of the point I can come up with is compare our V8 supercars to the British Touring cars. Small(er) hp works better through front wheels, bigger car/bigger output it needs to drive the rear to get power down well.

[zilo]

taily don't take any of this personally...

Originally Posted by Taily

Only to a point. Then your Ford is/was not aligned or set up properly or you are just plainly not driving to suit the conditions

I put the snow chains on the front wheels and press the accelerator.
Nothing further to setup mate.
Driving wheels can't lockup, whether uphill or downhill steering integrity kept.

On a RWD downhill you have to use the handbrake to stop else the front wheels lockup and it's all over.

Have you ever done any snow driving?

Originally Posted by Taily

but FWD and RWD both have their plusses and minuses in that scenario. Before you start laughing I'll set the record straight.

I'm talking about snow/ice not towing a trailer up a boat ramp.

Originally Posted by Taily

I've owned many front wheel, all wheel, and rear wheel drive cars, utes, 4WDs etc since buying my first car (a Mazda R100) in 1985.

I got my licence in 1975..first car was an XY falcon.
You were about 8 years old then?

Originally Posted by Taily

I've either raced, dragged or at least modded in some way every single car (of the 25 odd) I've ever owned in this time and I'll say at the outset that FWD is only marginally better in slippery conditions heading downhill, now lets turn around and head uphill around a corner - where FWD is at its weakest in the slippery stuff.

My FWD with Quaife torsion Limited slip differential works just fine downhill and uphill ...even in straight line on the flat.

Originally Posted by Taily

In your 380 you're left behind (I speak from experience my wife owned one from new in 2005, was a brilliant car but I was well aware of its shortcomings)...

Not my 380 matey.
I have 270kw@710Nm at the wheels .

Originally Posted by Taily

Anyone wanting to doubt this should think about a FWD trying to tow a boat up a mossy, slippery ramp or driving up a steep hill and going around a roundabout with said trailer behind.

Now I know you're either kidding or just making up stories.
I launch a Stabicraft 593HT with my FWD sedan.
No problems, and what's this about roundabouts?

Is your experience with a FWD 1986 Holden Camira?

Originally Posted by Taily

Up until very recently you couldn't put any more than around 150-170KW/Tonne powerloading through a well sorted FWD system before you started running to the edge of adhesion issues with the tyres.

By recently you mean twenty years ago?

Originally Posted by Taily

Modern Stability and Traction systems have alieviated much of this - see the latest GTI for a well thought out front end when driven hard against the Type R, but they cannot completely eliminate weight transfer.

Weight transfer occurs with both RWD and FWD cars, you simply drive them differently.

As I have said FWD you see the tree coming, RWD you dont know what hit you, but both lose control and hit the tree with certain drivers.

You're not suggesting that RWD is safer?...surely you jest?

Originally Posted by Taily

Your 380 putting 700nm through the front end sounds great (what rods are you running?)

Peuter rods (good for 1000hp)
Custom SPS pistons 8.5CR
nitrided crank...etc

Really not your average FWD mate, 270kw@710nM at the wheels.

So not surprising I find some of your comments...funny...

Originally Posted by Taily

but don't kid yourself, in very fast cornering with a (real) mid corner upset, you're heading bush in the 380 unless you've come up with a brilliant new traction control system for it or are running AWD or at least -3 deg Neg camber and running slicks... The moment you distort that contact patch of your front tyres you're fighting a losing battle to regain it and put power down at the same time through the one axle group.

One word for you..

KONI

Originally Posted by Taily

They are a great all round car for everyday Joe - I gotta be honest the 380 was well ahead of the NA 6 BF falcon in most things including build quality, refinement, general handling and a sweet sweet donk etc but pushed hard the pendulum swings towards RWD for tractability, ease of power delivery and general predictability when pushed hard.

Stock FWD Mitsubishi 380 absolutely flogs a NA RWD Falcon in a straight line, around corners, braking, suspension..
But they both share one important feature...noone wants to buy them so they will both just be memories soon...

Even though it's a Ford forum it's unfortunately a fact of life.

[Taily]

[QUOTE=zilo;5196709]taily don't take any of this personally... [quote]

Well I did write my post being respectful of the "play the ball, not the man" ethos but obviously it got a little difficult for you when someone dared actually call you on some aspects of what you wrote...

Originally Posted by zilo

I put the snow chains on the front wheels and press the accelerator. Nothing further to setup mate. Driving wheels can't lockup, whether uphill or downhill steering integrity kept.

On a RWD downhill you have to use the handbrake to stop else the front wheels lockup and it's all over.

Originally Posted by zilo

Have you ever done any snow driving?

Yeah, worked weekends at Perisher and Bluecow as a fitter 87-89 seasons. Saw enough of it in that time and learnt to deal with it, mostly just be gentle as you go. It isn't rocket science, but you do seem to miss the point that active stability systems in vehicles these days have moved on quite a lot from yours and my old 380s. It isn't impossible to lock a wheel in the scenario you describe but there are those who seem to still manage it easily... What I said about FWD vs RWD still stands, they both have their good and bad points in that scenario and FWD is not always best, just as RWD isn't either.

Originally Posted by zilo

I'm talking about snow/ice not towing a trailer up a boat ramp.

I was expanding a point. Obviously that was lost on you.

Originally Posted by zilo

I got my licence in 1975..first car was an XY falcon.
You were about 8 years old then?

Thanks, I was merely making a point that I (like many) have held a licence for a while and didn't come down in the last shower either. I'll shelve the "personal" reply to your dig...

Originally Posted by zilo

My FWD with Quaife torsion Limited slip differential works just fine downhill and uphill ...even in straight line on the flat.

Great, they weren't available to me in 2006 when I started modding the wifes car and it was a constant annoyance getting power down even through sticky 245x17 Michies. But north of 200kw back then made for an interesting drive.

Originally Posted by zilo

Not my 380 matey.
I have 270kw@710Nm at the wheels .

I never asked you to drop your dacks but since you mentioned it my wife's tuned and kitted XR50T pushes out more (not much more, but enough) than that - also, at the wheels. I have no idea what my old ute pushes out yet but it shows her a clean rear end in a straight line.

Originally Posted by zilo

Now I know you're either kidding or just making up stories.

Not biting apart from how and what would you like verified?

Originally Posted by zilo

I launch a Stabicraft 593HT with my FWD sedan.
No problems, and what's this about roundabouts?

I'm not talking about your lightweight tinny, I'm talking about my boat, a Caribbean Cobra - around 1400kg laden weight + fishing or ski gear. Put yourself towing what I was trying to attempting to even gently conduct an uphill start at a wet roundabout and even your LSD wont help you and in fact would even cause you more grief as your spinning front wheels slide to the left down the camber of the road toward the gutter. You must have lauched at some seriously shallow ramps also to have never had difficulty dragging even your tinny out of the water. Try seeing more of the country and some of those hard to get at spots that don't have big huge concrete ramps that are regularly cleaned.

Originally Posted by zilo

Is your experience with a FWD 1986 Holden Camira?

No, not biting, suffice to say been involved in enough motorsport and modding cars even through my previous line of work I walked away from 20 years ago. I've never bothered to count my trophies though.

Originally Posted by zilo

By recently you mean twenty years ago?

Weight transfer occurs with both RWD and FWD cars, you simply drive them differently.

As I have said FWD you see the tree coming, RWD you dont know what hit you, but both lose control and hit the tree with certain drivers.

Wow. My point all along...

Originally Posted by zilo

You're not suggesting that RWD is safer?...surely you jest?

Probably the safest car I ever owned would be an R32 I owned from new until early last year. Glad to see it go though, I earn good coin but there was no man alive that would put up with its continued drain on his wallet the way it did to mine.

Originally Posted by zilo

Peuter rods (good for 1000hp)
Custom SPS pistons 8.5CR
nitrided crank...etc

All I was able to do to ours (bearing in mind I was doing this to a car with only 500km on it after it was run in) was portwork and cam changes and some minor tuning.

Originally Posted by zilo

Really not your average FWD mate, 270kw@710nM at the wheels.

So not surprising I find some of your comments...funny...

Originally Posted by zilo

One word for you..

KONI

One to two for you too: Development test units and agreeing to some R+D for certain OEM suppliers...

Originally Posted by zilo

Stock FWD Mitsubishi 380 absolutely flogs a NA RWD Falcon in a straight line, around corners, braking, suspension..
But they both share one important feature...noone wants to buy them so they will both just be memories soon...

Even though it's a Ford forum it's unfortunately a fact of life.

Didn't disagree with you, read it again...

[290GTP]

Personally, I would rather cruise around in a XR6T or almost any other Ford than a hotted up Camry. It may be a better car than a Falcon but it has ZERO street presence & is about as exciting as dating a 60 year old nun.

Just because its a better car doesn't make it the better car.

[cortinagt]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

It's been done

image


Didn't go so well... Have you heard of the book "Unsafe at Any Speed"?

This one was safe at considerable speed


But it wasn't that standard. "Much of the car’s hardware came from one of Frank Gardner’s previous employers, Lola, in the form of Lola T332 running gear."

Basically they looked at all the cars on the market and found one that their openwheeler running gear would sorta fit under.

http://www.motorsportarchive.com/fra...ev_corvair.htm

Off topic but cool

[black13]

Pretty sad that this thread has turned into a **** fight

[geckoGT]

Just about every thread referring to any FWD car does here.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Taily

Well I did write my post being respectful of the "play the ball, not the man" ethos but obviously it got a little difficult for you when someone dared actually call you on some aspects of what you wrote...

All I said was

" FWD cars are also safer in cold climates, in snow and ice countries such as the US and europe, the steered wheels cant lock up as they do in a RWD car.

I can get up and down at Mt Hotham in my FWD without chains on, in the Ford on the way down, the front wheels just lockup right away and no steering...bang...straight into the guard rail. "

You agree don't you?

[NX74205]

Originally Posted by zilo

Stock FWD Mitsubishi 380 absolutely flogs a NA RWD Falcon in a straight line, around corners, braking, suspension..

I call BS on that.

According to Wheels, BF XT 4 Speed clocked 7.5 seconds 0-100 and 15.3 seconds 0-400m.

380 Series III ES 5-speed auto clocked 7.6 seconds 0-100.

I didn't know a near dead-heat constitutes a 'flog' ...

BF Falcon XT has a 15kW and 40Nm advantage over the 380 Series III ES and weighs only 29kg more.

Wheels also compared the 380 VRX with the BFII XR6 and VE SV6, and found the XR6 and SV6 to be dynamically superior to the 380.

[Auslandau]

XR6T wins ......... there you go! End of debate