Self Defence -Home Invasion

[ratter]

Originally Posted by SYZ

Considering what I've seen of this incident, and having to rely on the usual poophouse standards of our journalist, I get the impression that there's a lot more to this story than is first apparent.

First, it seems that the offender was Aboriginal—is the homeowner also Aboriginal? If so, were they known to each other? Does the homeowner also have a criminal record? Maybe this started out as some sort of payback.

Why chase the bloke out into the street and punch his lights out? Surely getting him out of the house, and away from your family would've been an adequate response. Wouldn't you presumably run back inside and immediately call the police?

And who exactly is the mysterious "friend" that helped the homeowner beat up the alleged burglar?

As I see it, I'd have to know a lot more of the actual details before I formed any sort of opinion about the rights and/or wrongs in this scenario. I don't think however that two blokes beating up another bloke is gonna stand up in court as "self defense" whatever happens.

As much as I think if somebody breaks into someone home, they deserve all they get, but this quoted post from SYZ is 100% spot on.

Just imagine if the guy was there for some other reason, maybe doing a drug deal or something and it went wrong and the guy was bashed to death and the home owner decided to make up a story about being broken into and then throw the bit in about his daughter as he knows we will all side with him.

Why did the home owner do a runner if he was genuine in his reason?

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Incentive to be creative with what you arm yourself with perhaps? But seriously, what is Australia coming to? No weapons, no pursuits, police in fear of being sacked for doing their jobs and retreating to low risk jobs like shooting radar guns while someone is being robbed or bashed down the street or a domestic violence situation spirals out of control. Maybe the other side of the pasture is always greener , but it looks like the US Police force, with the shoot outs, pit maneuvres and relentless car chases, no matter how hated they seem to be, are actually more mature and effective in performing their duties than our toothless, limp-wristed politically correct 'what about the children', 'criminals have rights too' approach? Is being a burglar a legitimate career or something, if they also have rights in going about their business?.. At the rate we are going, I think it is becoming a viable career path: cops can't chase you and if you get hurt going about your business, sue or imprison the owner. What more can a robber ask for ??

Imagine if you will a society where the authorities said to the populace "Here's what you do...if you are the victim of an assault or a crime, or see someone being attacked or your house is broken into, we don't care what you do to the attacker/burglar. Literally. Kill them if you like. HOWEVER, be assured there will be a full and strong investigation into the crime, and if you are trying to fool us and are lying about what happened, you will be jailed for life. Otherwise, it's open season...go for it".

That used to happen in some places actually. I've met people from the old...and not so old sometimes...South Africa who have had to shoot at or into intruders on their property, who have had to not leave the house without firearms in their car, and if something happens the police just more or less take a statement and shrug.
No idea if it reduced the incidence of crime, but I absolutely guarantee that a dead criminal won't re-offend....

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Jess1992

I live with another friend of mine who is also female. What do we do if a man breaks in while we are asleep? Ask him to politely leave and hope he doesn't rape/and or kill us? Or would we be able to use any means necessary to ensure our safety?

I am so scared at home some nights because I could not physically protect myself without some sort of weapon

Jess- you are able to use whatever force is proportional to the threat you perceive. If it was a guy breaking into your house, the law would probably apply the threat you perceive broadly, ie make it easy for you to use the defence of self defence.

In terms of guns, it has already been pointed out guns need to be securely locked up in a gun secure cabinet, so it would not be like in South Africa where you have a gun on you in a shoulder holster in bed, or on the bedside table or under the bed holstered. So not accessible.

You could look at bats, clubs, axes etc-but that is last resort and could be turned against you by criminal. Really is last resort desperation stuff...

You should look at security, if you own your own house and have money, proper security bar doors over doors, burglar bars on outside over entire windows. Not the toy stuff often seen in Australia although that is better than nothing, have a look at what they use in South Africa, wrought iron heavy doors set in cast frame, same as external window coverings, crims would need blow torch or angle grinder to get through- too much trouble.

Then inside, have easily accessible alarm to turn on, loud noise and flashing blue lights- will scare person away. That alarm system when activated should be connected to security company/police notification as well.

Make the property visibly look like a hard nut to crack from outside, crim will look for more easy pickings most likely. If despite external security bars, crim is trying to break in, there will be noise to warn you and time to act, activate loud flashing alarm system, crim likely to do runner.

Make sure to put up those alarm warning notification signs outside so it is clear property is alarmed, if you have a fence, stick up warning signs of dangerous mean dogs inside- crim who is not from that area will not know you are foxing...

Personal protection weapons is absolute last resort stuff in the line of steps of what you should be looking at doing. Bit like crash crumple zones in car-last line......

[2011G6E]

Here's a radical thought...

How about organising things so criminals are actually afraid of what may face them when they break into a house they know or suspect is occupied? A bit like the old sign "This house is guarded by shotgun three nights a week...you get to guess which three"....
One of the Redneck Comedian guys...Jeff Foxworthy I think...said "I have home security and also guns but I know a criminal will look at my house all secured up and think there simply has to be some good stuff inside. Then he would look at a rednecks typical house with overgrown lawn, a car under the tree in the front yard, an engine hanging from a chain out of the tree, and ratty looking paint, and he wouldn't break in there, because he can just see that's a house where a gun lives...and if you want to find out what sort just climb through that unsecured side window at 2am"...

Yes, all my guns are securely locked away and take time to get to...but that real Katana on the shelves beside the bed, which I actually know how to use, is not locked away...it's quieter than a gun too.

Well...apart from when the screaming starts I suppose...

[Pol84]

Originally Posted by FairmontGS

The guy is dead. I'd say that's the classical definition of excessive force...

Not exactly.

Theoretical situation - you're out in the back of your garage working on your car and an unknown, unfriendly character stands at the open garage door. This character pulls out a knife, says 'I'm going to kill you' and starts charging at you from 5 metres or so away. It's fairly reasonable to expect you're going to get stabbed here - and stabbings can easily be fatal (as we know). Beside you is your thick, metal hydraulic jack handle and, fearing for your life, you pick it up and swing it at the characters head as he's virtually now on top of you.

You strike him in the head with the jack handle and he crumples to the ground. Unfortunately you've inflicted a fatal head injury upon him and he's died instantly.

Would you call that excessive? That character had a lethal weapon, had made direct threats on your life and had the present ability to execute that threat. It was going to be you or him, and naturally you'd picked your life as the one to save.

Obviously that's all hypothetical, extremely unlikely and doesn't relate at all to the current matter, but is something to think about when making the claim that death is always excessive.

Mind you, it's not a get out of gaol free card. It will be heavily investigated, as this case is, and you'd never, ever want to be in that situation. Think about the fear, stress, depression etc you're going to go through knowing that some unknown person of authority somewhere is going to decide whether what you did was justifiable or not. It's being a free man vs years in gaol - not a gamble I'm willing to make.

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by Pol84

Not exactly.

Theoretical situation - you're out in the back of your garage working on your car and an unknown, unfriendly character stands at the open garage door. This character pulls out a knife, says 'I'm going to kill you' and starts charging at you from 5 metres or so away. It's fairly reasonable to expect you're going to get stabbed here - and stabbings can easily be fatal (as we know). Beside you is your thick, metal hydraulic jack handle and, fearing for your life, you pick it up and swing it at the characters head as he's virtually now on top of you.

You strike him in the head with the jack handle and he crumples to the ground. Unfortunately you've inflicted a fatal head injury upon him and he's died instantly.

Would you call that excessive? That character had a lethal weapon, had made direct threats on your life and had the present ability to execute that threat. It was going to be you or him, and naturally you'd picked your life as the one to save.

Obviously that's all hypothetical, extremely unlikely and doesn't relate at all to the current matter, but is something to think about when making the claim that death is always excessive.

Mind you, it's not a get out of gaol free card. It will be heavily investigated, as this case is, and you'd never, ever want to be in that situation. Think about the fear, stress, depression etc you're going to go through knowing that some unknown person of authority somewhere is going to decide whether what you did was justifiable or not. It's being a free man vs years in gaol - not a gamble I'm willing to make.

Sorry, I meant in the context that this particular guy met his end it was excessive.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Is the police still a 'Service' or a 'Force' like it used to be???

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Pol84

Not exactly.

Theoretical situation - you're out in the back of your garage working on your car and an unknown, unfriendly character stands at the open garage door. This character pulls out a knife, says 'I'm going to kill you' and starts charging at you from 5 metres or so away. It's fairly reasonable to expect you're going to get stabbed here - and stabbings can easily be fatal (as we know). Beside you is your thick, metal hydraulic jack handle and, fearing for your life, you pick it up and swing it at the characters head as he's virtually now on top of you.

You strike him in the head with the jack handle and he crumples to the ground. Unfortunately you've inflicted a fatal head injury upon him and he's died instantly..................................

It will be heavily investigated, as this case is, and you'd never, ever want to be in that situation. Think about the fear, stress, depression etc you're going to go through knowing that some unknown person of authority somewhere is going to decide whether what you did was justifiable or not. It's being a free man vs years in gaol - not a gamble I'm willing to make.

The frightening thing is that most of us faced with this scenario would react without thinking to self preserve ones life....and would then face that gamble.

And innately, one would gamble the chance of gaol as against the chance of death....

It really sucks that potentially good productive decent community members are put in such an awful situation by scum....

[castellan]

Just remember we all support the New Age Political Correct, Snowflake generation, we are a Marxist people now, we look down on freedom of speech and all. ( the Liberal party have made that intention clear now and follow the ALP position now as well. )

So unless it's Marxist and the trend is Politically Correct for the times you know that's all that maters.

But you know that how Political Correctness works like a trend, as it can change and even turn 180 degrees give, it 10 years or so and all the narrow minded short sighted brainwashed fools will just follow along.

You have no rights to attack a poor criminal who just wants what you have, he or she has every right to not be harmed in any way, just because one may think he or she or is doing wrong has nothing to do with you at all.

Woops we can't say he or she that's sexist, sorry I have not caught up with the latest PC trend totally yet.

We are all a very rich people now and we 'all' have all the insurances policy's in the world to deal with any inconvenience's that may come along as such, don't you know.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Is the police still a 'Service' or a 'Force' like it used to be???

About as much of a service as a Parking Inspector or the ATO, at least in Victoria. More likely to get help from the Fire Brigade or Ambulance than VicPol. Would rather call the fire brigade if my house got broken into to, they would probably arrive quicker.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by asagaai

The frightening thing is that most of us faced with this scenario would react without thinking to self preserve ones life....and would then face that gamble.

And innately, one would gamble the chance of gaol as against the chance of death....

It really sucks that potentially good productive decent community members are put in such an awful situation by scum....

Scum ? you can not use that word it's offensive and could hurt ones feelings, don't you know that no one is better or worse than anyone.

The truth is only what's now called relative, there is no right or wrong don't you know.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

About as much of a service as a Parking Inspector or the ATO, at least in Victoria. More likely to get help from the Fire Brigade or Ambulance than VicPol. Would rather call the fire brigade if my house got broken into to, they would probably arrive quicker.

Ambulance can not come or Fire Brigade in some places in QLD unless the Police Service are their first.

[Jastel]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Well- a person who attends your property uninvited, walks up the driveway to sell you crap or on a mission to "save you" and spread the "gospel truth", slips on the driveway, sues you as occupier for failing to take reasonable care for visitors who you should have foreseen would walk up the driveway uninvited.

If the driveway is gradient steep and fails to meet reasonable coefficient standards, law says occupier owes an uninvited visitor a duty of care, and is negligent for not providing safe driveway, despite person being uninvited.

So the law does not say uninvited guests leave rights at the property boundary. My example is civil, but also seems to apply to criminal.

Still, I think that if someone breaks into an occupied house, they must expect that homeowner will perceive significant risk and will use whatever comes to hand as a reasonable response to perceived risk, and in that case the homeowner should face no charge on basis of self defence, ie self defence should be extended and KNOWN to provide easy coverage to homeowner in that situation to in effect provide a form of robust immunity to homeowner- then perhaps deviants would think a bit more before break and enter occupied premises.

And THIS is why the Law is an ***....


MY property is not public property.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by Jastel

And THIS is why the Law is an ***....


MY property is not public property.

Except that your property isn't yours. If you don't hold allodial title to it, you don't own it at all. It is the singular reason why govco can get away with such bullcrap when it comes to events that may happen on your property.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Jastel

And THIS is why the Law is an ***....


MY property is not public property.

No your property is not public property, unless compulsorily acquired by the government.

BUT your property and you as occupier of it are subject to Australian Law.

[FPV+fteT3]

Just on the news a Sydney man who run over pedestrian killing her last November while she was crossing the road at a set of lights has escaped gaol has a 2 year driving disqualification and an intensive correction order for 12 months he plead guilty to negligent driving causing death no gaol for running someone over so in that context why would you go to gaol for killing someone breaking into your house? The person crossing the road was innocent and died the dude doing the break and enter is a criminal and died………….

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by castellan

Just remember we all support the New Age Political Correct, Snowflake generation, we are a Marxist people now, we look down on freedom of speech and all. ( the Liberal party have made that intention clear now and follow the ALP position now as well. )

So unless it's Marxist and the trend is Politically Correct for the times you know that's all that maters.

But you know that how Political Correctness works like a trend, as it can change and even turn 180 degrees give, it 10 years or so and all the narrow minded short sighted brainwashed fools will just follow along.

You have no rights to attack a poor criminal who just wants what you have, he or she has every right to not be harmed in any way, just because one may think he or she or is doing wrong has nothing to do with you at all.

Woops we can't say he or she that's sexist, sorry I have not caught up with the latest PC trend totally yet.

We are all a very rich people now and we 'all' have all the insurances policy's in the world to deal with any inconvenience's that may come along as such, don't you know.

When I read that I'm trying to work who you haven't got it in for

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

About as much of a service as a Parking Inspector or the ATO, at least in Victoria. More likely to get help from the Fire Brigade or Ambulance than VicPol. Would rather call the fire brigade if my house got broken into to, they would probably arrive quicker.

Well... funny you say that.

A month ago my building site got broken into. I called the local station, informed them of the crime and mentioned that I have:

* The name and number of the person that did it.
* The exact time they did it.
* Lots of evidence such as video, foot prints, possible finger prints.
* A description of the car they drive that matches the video.
* Quite a bit of damage.

Their reply.... Thanks for the call - call the Police assistance line.

Their reply... Thanks for the call. Here is your reference number, someone will get back to you by the end of the week... (I called Saturday).

I sat on that for a while and thought how effin DARE they brush me off...

Called back, made a fuss and low and behold they were out within 2hrs taking pics, watching the footage, recording evidence.... and actually speaking to me like a human, not a fricken event number.

I couldn't make it easier for them...

Haven't heard anything. I bet nothing comes of it and I'm left out of pocket. Why wasn't this mongrel looked into right away while he was still wearing the same shoes, driving the same car, wearing the same clothing?? Could I have made it any any easier for them to bust this guy???

Yet you get done with drugs you are in court the next day.... probably sounds sexier for the news.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

Just on the news a Sydney man who run over pedestrian killing her last November while she was crossing the road at a set of lights has escaped gaol has a 2 year driving disqualification and an intensive correction order for 12 months he plead guilty to negligent driving causing death no gaol for running someone over so in that context why would you go to gaol for killing someone breaking into your house? The person crossing the road was innocent and died the dude doing the break and enter is a criminal and died………….

I wonder if the depth of your pockets has anything to do with it.....

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

Just on the news a Sydney man who run over pedestrian killing her last November while she was crossing the road at a set of lights has escaped gaol has a 2 year driving disqualification and an intensive correction order for 12 months he plead guilty to negligent driving causing death no gaol for running someone over so in that context why would you go to gaol for killing someone breaking into your house? The person crossing the road was innocent and died the dude doing the break and enter is a criminal and died………….

Interesting question, but there is a difference.

In criminal law for most indictable offences a requirement for guilt is the concept of "mens rea" latin for intention to do something.

In the house break in, you are the homeowner, you are confronted by a person in the dark, feel threatened, pick up a cricket bat, and intend to hit him in head and hit him in the head and he dies from brain infarction. Intention is made out. Law is then tasked to determine if the intention and physical action thereafter carried out is justified in all the circumstances.

In the traffic situation, the person did not intend to run over person and kill them. Person driving was surely negligent, and possibly reckless, but there was not an intent to run into the person with the car.

Need to separate intention and the physical action which results in the death. In criminal indictable matters generally need need both mens rea (intention) and actus reus (the act) in combination for an offence to be made out.

Generally the community and law views as more serious those crimes where death is caused by intention combined with act as compared to those situations where there was no intention but just action that caused death.

[OwnTheRoad]

Originally Posted by asagaai

No your property is not public property, unless compulsorily acquired by the government.

BUT your property and you as occupier of it are subject to Australian Law.

Just looking into how I can declare my home a sovereign state with me as the king, yep my country my rules, that outa do it lol

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by OwnTheRoad

Just looking into how I can declare my home a sovereign state with me as the king, yep my country my rules, that outa do it lol

Ask Prince Leonard I of Hutt!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princi..._of_Hutt_River

[78xcgxl]

If this man is convicted (provide there is not more to the story that we don't know) then the Australian Justice system is a joke and anything but just. I don't care what the rubbish laws are with excessive force, if someone breaks into my house he is a dead man simple. This is were the USA get it right!

[tut0r]

I've already seen about 5 facebook groups for free ben whats his face and RIP whoever the guy who died?!?

I've read through as much as I can find and the story from day one till now has changed about a dozen times.

This will be forgotten about in a months time and just seems like its going to become click bait on the internet for something stupid.

Evidence is sketchy at best, either way if that was me, I'd be punching, bludgeoning and doing any means necessary to make sure a burglar wasn't getting up. Because one hit to the face and I'm done for, Glass jaw and all

Thinking about it, chasing an intruder down the street sounds stupid but hell if that adrenalines kicked in, you're not exactly thinking rationally and I highly doubt any court of law or thought of prosecution will be going through your mind.

Oh someone said said earlier we are becoming a nanny country and to politically correct.....Unfortunately we all have a hand in this as we do vote after all......

[FairmontGS]

Radio just now said that the person under arrest twice hasn't appeared in court, didn't ask for bail and that the bronze are not backing down on the charges. I'd say there's more than meets the eye on this.

[Stefan]

Given the swiftness of the murder charge being laid, no plea for bail, no appearance in court, I tend to agree with Scott, there is more to the story than someone defending their home.

I'm sure there have been instances where homeowners have not been charged at all, for similar things.