Automotive Industry and the Election

[cheap]

Here I was mistakenly thinking it was the fault of the manufacturers building cars people didn't want to buy/drive/own. Here I was mistakenly thinking they were building products which in some cases were over priced crap.

Yes some of the politicians didn't help and neither did the unions. But I fail to see why somone (for example me) has had to prop up an industry year upon year through my money (taxes) for them to build products which I do not want and have blue collar workers on wages (again using my money) way over what they're worth. Can someone explain the logic in that? And before you start, simply telling me that every country protects their auto industry is in my opinion total bull-dust and part of the reason for failure.

[bernbo]

Originally Posted by cheap

Here I was mistakenly thinking it was the fault of the manufacturers building cars people didn't want to buy/drive/own. Here I was mistakenly thinking they were building products which in some cases were over priced crap.

Yes some of the politicians didn't help and neither did the unions. But I fail to see why somone (for example me) has had to prop up an industry year upon year through my money (taxes) for them to build products which I do not want and have blue collar workers on wages (again using my money) way over what they're worth. Can someone explain the logic in that? And before you start, simply telling me that every country protects their auto industry is in my opinion total bull-dust and part of the reason for failure.

Since you think you don't have to prop up a valuable industry, you now get to prop up all the unemployed workers from all the related industries. It's this capitalistic ideal where as long as it doesn't affect me I don't care? You belong to a country, where it is beneficial to the country for it to survive. Go to America and all the ads on tv say "buy american, keep Americans in jobs" We don't have that sort of patriotism which is to our detriment. Thanks to others with your thinking we will keep selling everything off and we will only have part time cafe jobs left.

[FalconXV]

Yep we have cultural cringe instead. it's pharked.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by cheap

Here I was mistakenly thinking it was the fault of the manufacturers building cars people didn't want to buy/drive/own. Here I was mistakenly thinking they were building products which in some cases were over priced crap.

its easy to think like that when you don't take the time (like some of the contributors to this thread have) to research the decline of the industry. its a lot more complex than just pointing fingers at one or two factors.

even just on volume, the best selling cars in the country only sell about 3000/month. thats not enough to sustain a factory here. if they had 2 models, assuming both were high selling, it still isn't enough volume to maintain the plants here.

you need exports, but given the parent companies of all local marques have factories already pumping out high volumes in low rent countries, it just wasn't viable to ship them out of australia. then there's the dollar and exchange rates etc. no cars shipped to the US from australia have ever made money. ironically, the dollar is now back to where it makes much better sense but the horse has bolted.

there are many more factors.

it just isn't a simple discussion and you can't even really point the finger at one particular political party.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by bernbo

Since you think you don't have to prop up a valuable industry, you now get to prop up all the unemployed workers from all the related industries. It's this capitalistic ideal where as long as it doesn't affect me I don't care? You belong to a country, where it is beneficial to the country for it to survive. Go to America and all the ads on tv say "buy american, keep Americans in jobs" We don't have that sort of patriotism which is to our detriment. Thanks to others with your thinking we will keep selling everything off and we will only have part time cafe jobs left.

I think you've got the wrong end of the spectrum, it isn't capitalism which contributed to the decline but good old fashioned socialism, you know, the process where Govco spends our money until our money runs out, propping up failed industry, protectionism, high tariffs, providing free education, free health care, benefit after benefit and when the money runs out, simply borrow. The socialist magical place where everything works until the money runs out, a place like where we are right now!

[FalconXV]

^when political discourse has been reduced to this calibre, we're in deep trouble. That money thing is a complete and utter fallacy.

[bernbo]

Originally Posted by cheap

I think you've got the wrong end of the spectrum, it isn't capitalism which contributed to the decline but good old fashioned socialism, you know, the process where Govco spends our money until our money runs out, propping up failed industry, protectionism, high tariffs, providing free education, free health care, benefit after benefit and when the money runs out, simply borrow. The socialist magical place where everything works until the money runs out, a place like where we are right now!

Have to disagree. Finland has high than average income tax but totally free universal health and education. Their education system while government rub is the best in the world. There is no private education, it is not needed as the government one is so good. One enterprise get the money and then spends it. While in capitalism everyone along the line has to make some money so by the time it reaches whatever your funding that cash had dwindled. It is capitalism that moves manufacturing to somewhere else to make now profit, it is socialist policy or patriotism that puts tariffs on imports to protect local industry. We used to do just that but both sides of government dropped those during free trade negotiations, interestingly those partner countries kept a lot of theirs. Maybe they value their country more than taking one up the date from the big corporates.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by bernbo

Have to disagree. Finland has high than average income tax but totally free universal health and education. Their education system while government rub is the best in the world. There is no private education, it is not needed as the government one is so good. One enterprise get the money and then spends it. While in capitalism everyone along the line has to make some money so by the time it reaches whatever your funding that cash had dwindled. It is capitalism that moves manufacturing to somewhere else to make now profit, it is socialist policy or patriotism that puts tariffs on imports to protect local industry. We used to do just that but both sides of government dropped those during free trade negotiations, interestingly those partner countries kept a lot of theirs. Maybe they value their country more than taking one up the date from the big corporates.

You make a good point, but I'll bet you that Finland doesn't have 3 (very bloated) levels of Government with unnecessary obstructionist upper houses.

Until Australia gets a form of Government that can function in the modern era, sensible administration will not prevail.

Having one side of politics beholden to union criminals & the other side to big business & other splinter groups is not a good recipe.

Dr Terry

[cheap]

So the answer is Finland, where personal tax is 51% (it did reach 62%), wish you well in watching even more of YOUR money get ****ed away.

As for being ungovernable, the morning after election night and I think the country is well and truly ungovernable.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by cheap

Here I was mistakenly thinking it was the fault of the manufacturers building cars people didn't want to buy/drive/own. Here I was mistakenly thinking they were building products which in some cases were over priced crap.

Yes some of the politicians didn't help and neither did the unions. But I fail to see why somone (for example me) has had to prop up an industry year upon year through my money (taxes) for them to build products which I do not want and have blue collar workers on wages (again using my money) way over what they're worth. Can someone explain the logic in that? And before you start, simply telling me that every country protects their auto industry is in my opinion total bull-dust and part of the reason for failure.

Tax payers prop up a lot of industries.
Why pick on car makers?

Have a look and see how much goes to Gina Rhinehart.
I even get government help, they subsidise my diesel.
If they didn't, you couldn't afford to eat!

[bernbo]

Originally Posted by cheap

So the answer is Finland, where personal tax is 51% (it did reach 62%), wish you well in watching even more of YOUR money get ****ed away.

As for being ungovernable, the morning after election night and I think the country is well and truly ungovernable.

My money gets ****ed away now when the bogans (sorry aussie battlers) literally come home on a Thursday i.e. pay day (that's what they call it but it is really pension day) with the poor prius taxi dragging its bum because it is full of booze. Our culture has a lot of problems which we could go on forever about but we are really a long way down a track i don't think we could ever change. Finland does have high tax but you are not forking out for education and health. Like most European cultures they don't have our culture of boozing which contributes to our high health costs. I never said finland is the answer but you have to appreciate some things that other countries do. It makes me laugh when they talk of tax reform when really all the government's do is tinker on the fringe.

[prydey]

paying tax = doing your bit.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I think the real reason that Australia will lose the car industry is because it was never an Australian industry. We just had off shoots from the majors in the US or Japan all squabbling for a small piece of pie and limiting the true potential that was available.

Very sad






.

There was never any hope of a totally Australia car company ever and if we did it would be just total backward rubbish.

It was a great thing that Australia did back with the FX Holden and all the other car makers from then on, as It really put the nation on the path to make many other products, without it all we would of been a backward 3rd world nation.

I can't believe people who bag outside company's who invest in our nation, all investments need to make money out of it, or why would they even bother.

(Drongo) Hey could someone help us here in Australia ?
(Nation) What do you want us to do for you.
(Drongo) XYZ but we don't want to give you nothing dude.
(Nation) Good luck dude, fork it or walk it, no one rides for free !

[Olbucko]

Originally Posted by bernbo

Finland does have high tax but you are not forking out for education and health. Like most European cultures they don't have our culture of boozing which contributes to our high health costs.

I married into a Finnish family, they love their booze!

[Sprintey]

To add one factor not mentioned yet, there's global overcapacity... in everything. Including autos.

I see source after source and chart after chart of slowing global trade, overcapacity of production, overproduction of raw materials. I'm still grappling with the question of whether it's driven by consumers withdrawing, or malinvestment caused by artificial suppression of interest rates (5000 year lows!) - or a combination of both. Interesting times, pity about the loss of the industry. If you love Aussie autos, get one while you can!

[Junkyard-Dog]

Most European countries don't have a culture of boozing!?

Ok, I call BS on that. When I was in Poland, the men of the family I was staying with would drink a bottle of vodka each per day. In Germany, I nearly got alcohol poisoning trying to keep up with the blokes at the beer hall. In France, I thought I was going to drown in my wine glass.

I'm not gonna mention my experiences in Holland though ;)

[bernbo]

Never said they didn't drink and you are all correct, they are big drinkers. What i meant is their booze culture is different, they generally start drinking early in life with their family but never to get off their face. They don't have the teen binge drinking culture we have that then can led to other things like harder drugs etc. But all that is off the topic. Wasnt some dude going to buy the holden factory?