NSW bans greyhound racing from July 2017

[kypez]

Originally Posted by trublu

Well worth it in my opinion, got to have my steak for Dinner!!!

Last steak I had was 14 years ago. My body has never been healthier than I am today!

[b0son]

Originally Posted by kypez

That is a food chain. I haven't met a Lion that farms animals or a deer that tills their land...

Have you met the damselfish which cultivates a specific species of red algae, and weeds out other plants to help it grow, so that it can feed on it? Have you met the yeti crab which uses its bristles to grow a specific strain of bacteria on its claws that it then consumes? How about fungus farming, which is very widespread? Leafcutter collect plant matter, fertilise it with their own faeces, then use the fungus it creates to feed their larvae. The marsh perwiwinkle cuts wounds into spartina grass leaves, which allow it to become infected with fungus, upon which they then feed. Feeder weevils transport funi into the trees in which they bore, these fungi break down plant matter that the weevil could not otherwise extract which they then feed on. Black garden ants bite off the wings of aphids, then inject them with tranquilising chemicals they produce to make them easier to herd and keep them from running away, to be eaten at a later time.....

But above all, you are a human that has stepped out and above the life of an animal. You are above food chains which is why we had the brain to create agriculture!

And now you want us to stop using it where animals are concerned?

Its this thinking that will end up with us wiping ourselves off the planet.

We don't need to stop eating meat to save this planet. Once you can accept that this isn't an either or argument, you might actually be able to have a sensible discussion.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by kypez

So it was implied that the evidence you spoke of supported this to be fact that we NEED meat as my point was that we DO NOT need meat.

We do not need to use fossil fuels or electricity. You use both. Then complain about the damage we do to this world. Most would consider that hypocrisy.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

We do not need to use fossil fuels or electricity. You use both. Then complain about the damage we do to this world. Most would consider that hypocrisy.

Agreed. But we accept that and are working feverishly towards renewable resources. I'm actually about to cancel my Sprint order as it doesnt bode well with my views as they evolve. A Tesla is a better option for me. Oh, my place that I'm building is completely off the grid, completely renewable.

Point is, animal agriculture, that has the largest impact is a growing industry and nothing is being done to address this.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

Have you met the damselfish which cultivates a specific species of red algae, and weeds out other plants to help it grow, so that it can feed on it? Have you met the yeti crab which uses its bristles to grow a specific strain of bacteria on its claws that it then consumes? How about fungus farming, which is very widespread? Leafcutter collect plant matter, fertilise it with their own faeces, then use the fungus it creates to feed their larvae. The marsh perwiwinkle cuts wounds into spartina grass leaves, which allow it to become infected with fungus, upon which they then feed. Feeder weevils transport funi into the trees in which they bore, these fungi break down plant matter that the weevil could not otherwise extract which they then feed on. Black garden ants bite off the wings of aphids, then inject them with tranquilising chemicals they produce to make them easier to herd and keep them from running away, to be eaten at a later time.....



And now you want us to stop using it where animals are concerned?



We don't need to stop eating meat to save this planet. Once you can accept that this isn't an either or argument, you might actually be able to have a sensible discussion.

I've heard of most you mention (and learnt about a few too). The key for all these creatures is that they are still at the mercy of the food chain and conditions around them.

Animal agriculture is inefficient and destructive to the environment and most of all, to us! We don't need the meat. Producing energy by burning coal isnt something we need to do either as technology evolves (though the pollies will tell you otherwise).

Ethically, it really is a either or argument. How anyone can kill an innocent animal is beyond my comprehension. I was one of those people. Looking back, I just can not understand how I was able to convince myself with the reason I gave myself.

The greyhound saga is the tip of the ice berg. Watch some of the videos of cattle/sheep/etc farming. You might argue that its an exception not the norm, but why any exception is tolerated is beyond me.

No good person could do that.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by kypez

Agreed. But we accept that and are working feverishly towards renewable resources. I'm actually about to cancel my Sprint order as it doesnt bode well with my views as they evolve. A Tesla is a better option for me. Oh, my place that I'm building is completely off the grid, completely renewable.

I love the idea of the Tesla, its priced out of my ballpark for now. I can accept that unless we find a way to completely recycle CO2, fuel is not a viable energy source long term. Thankfully, there are people working on ways of extracting fuel from the air (combing CO2 with H2O to make hydrocarbons), all powered by the sun. And with the engineering advances in F1, thermal efficiency of the humble combustion engine is set to improve significantly so that we are unlikely to see an end to them any time soon.

Point is, animal agriculture, that has the largest impact is a growing industry and nothing is being done to address this.

Where beef is concerned, I agree. OTOH, there has been a 250% feed conversion rate improvement in poultry since the 1800s. It is an ideal protein source for poorer nations. There is certainly an argument for continued meat consumption if we can find ways to make those sorts of improvements elsewhere.

I'm not overly doom and gloom about the future of this world. I think we have the means to address most issues. I just find the current method of a vocal minority setting the agenda, then directing the narrative, and shouting down anyone who wants to approach things differently, counterproductive.

Look at the outcry over Bjorn Lomborg receiving some government money to set up a research centre here, since canned. How many actually knew what he stood for? He has some really cool ideas about coping with climate change, but the establishment have decided emissions trading is the only way to deal with it, and the only aim should be to halt emissions rather than create mechanisms to cope with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXXNGjeNQTo

[b0son]

Originally Posted by kypez

The greyhound saga is the tip of the ice berg. Watch some of the videos of cattle/sheep/etc farming. You might argue that its an exception not the norm, but why any exception is tolerated is beyond me.

I'm not entirely sure there is much more to this than grandstanding. Where is the commission into the horseracing industry? Oh wait, many party donors like to gamble on the horses, and many even own a few....

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

I love the idea of the Tesla, its priced out of my ballpark for now. I can accept that unless we find a way to completely recycle CO2, fuel is not a viable energy source long term. Thankfully, there are people working on ways of extracting fuel from the air (combing CO2 with H2O to make hydrocarbons), all powered by the sun. And with the engineering advances in F1, thermal efficiency of the humble combustion engine is set to improve significantly so that we are unlikely to see an end to them any time soon.



Where beef is concerned, I agree. OTOH, there has been a 250% feed conversion rate improvement in poultry since the 1800s. It is an ideal protein source for poorer nations. There is certainly an argument for continued meat consumption if we can find ways to make those sorts of improvements elsewhere.

I'm not overly doom and gloom about the future of this world. I think we have the means to address most issues. I just find the current method of a vocal minority setting the agenda, then directing the narrative, and shouting down anyone who wants to approach things differently, counterproductive.

Look at the outcry over Bjorn Lomborg receiving some government money to set up a research centre here, since canned. How many actually knew what he stood for? He has some really cool ideas about coping with climate change, but the establishment have decided emissions trading is the only way to deal with it, and the only aim should be to halt emissions rather than create mechanisms to cope with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXXNGjeNQTo

Out of my budget as well! But the model 3 I have a deposit on should be around the Sprint price. Whenever that turns up, the house is ready to go for electric car off the grid.

Agreed, I'm a big fan of exploring options and not shutting down other ideas. I've been doing a lot of research and havent seen enough ideas to solve the meat production, especially ethically (one of the reason i gave up meat).

I think the issue is real. The apartment I bought a few years ago, our suburb is on the Parramatta river. Regulations are that the whole suburb had to accommodate a 1 meter sea level rise that is expected within the next 100 years. Some areas of govt have already accepted this and included in future planning.

I wish we still had the carbon tax as it would've driven further innovation in the country with the revenue raised. I'd happily pay more to fund that innovation (maybe means testing utilities just as we do Medicare/Private health rebates). If I go to hospital, I always go as private patient as I believe Medicare is for those who cant afford it and not for people who can to take advantage of it.

The ethical discussion is why were in this conversation. If you play with a calf or a lamb, you start to see the only difference is that people accept a dog into their house and not the former. They are so much fun and play just like an over sized dog! How can we kill something so nice? How did I?!

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

I'm not entirely sure there is much more to this than grandstanding. Where is the commission into the horseracing industry? Oh wait, many party donors like to gamble on the horses, and many even own a few....

So very true! Whilst I'd love for this and would like nothing better, I cant see it happening. But then again, I never thought I'd see the end to Greyhound racing. There is hope. Just like a have Hope about meat production (think horse racing will get a look in before the latter though!).

[Express]

Originally Posted by Sox

Not only that, we're meant to eat animal products as well as our greens and other things.
We are omnivores.

Any vegan who tries to tell you otherwise has no clue, which is unfortunately the majority of vegans.

We rarely eat red meat at home, mainly fruit and vegetables and a few times a week either some fish, chicken or pork and when you think about some of the rubbish introduced into the food chain of those three proteins they’re probably not much chop for us anyway.

I have a couple of friends who are in their fifties who have been vegan since their twenties and I must say they do look healthy and they do prepare some beautiful meals when we visit and I was watching a program on the ABC or SBS the other night that was saying vegans live longer.

Still I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone can live without bacon.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by Express

We rarely eat red meat at home, mainly fruit and vegetables and a few times a week either some fish, chicken or pork and when you think about some of the rubbish introduced into the food chain of those three proteins they’re probably not much chop for us anyway.

I have a couple of friends who are in their fifties who have been vegan since their twenties and I must say they do look healthy and they do prepare some beautiful meals when we visit and I was watching a program on the ABC or SBS the other night that was saying vegans live longer.

Still I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone can live without bacon.

As this thread is now completely off topic

http://youtu.be/z0O_VYcsIk8

http://youtu.be/aZEeud6myCk

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by kypez

Last steak I had was 14 years ago. My body has never been healthier than I am today!

Glad to hear it has worked for you, I like my meat & must admit my body is not bad for a 60 year old, just remember everything is a personal choice & nothing wrong eating meats.
I think the big issues these days with people is eating too much processed foods, think about it.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Express

I was watching a program on the ABC or SBS the other night that was saying vegans live longer.

I don't think they actually live any longer it just feels like it

Originally Posted by Express

Still I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone can live without bacon.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by kypez

Er... you said we are omnivores and then said the science is solid.

Yes, and yes.

So it was implied that the evidence you spoke of supported this to be fact that we NEED meat as my point was that we DO NOT need meat.

I didn't say we need meat. I said we are omnivores.
Which means part of our basic diet includes animal product.
It doesn't mean we can't survive if we don't have animal product.

I think its unfair that you think you didn't say that or imply that.

How is it unfair that you didn't read what I said carefully?
This is a common tactic of vegans, and all part of the propaganda.
I've been down this road with others, in person.

But I apologies if you still maintain that you didn't mean it that way and you haven't clarified your position.

Apology accepted, however if you weren't so quick to jump the gun you might have understood what was being said.

We also used to kill and eat one another. In fact, of the 200,000 years of man as we know, we have killed and eaten one another for more than 195,000 years of it. Why have we stopped doing that? If you say its because we have enough animals to do that, we also have enough plants to not eat or harm animals.

It's because we have evolved into slightly more intelligent beings and realise that it's simply not good practice.
It's quite possible that the practice still goes on in some tribes anyhow.

It's a redundant point however, because many things were done hundreds or thousands of years ago that aren't done now.
That's progress.

Humans eating animal product is no different to animals eating other animals, the cycle of life.
It's what we do.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by kypez

Last steak I had was 14 years ago. My body has never been healthier than I am today!

Last steak I had was about 2 hours ago.
My body has never been healthier than it is today.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Express

We rarely eat red meat at home, mainly fruit and vegetables and a few times a week either some fish, chicken or pork and when you think about some of the rubbish introduced into the food chain of those three proteins they’re probably not much chop for us anyway.

They're just fine.
Animal products as part of a balanced diet, fruit/veg and all the rest, with little processing is as good as it gets.

I have a couple of friends who are in their fifties who have been vegan since their twenties and I must say they do look healthy and they do prepare some beautiful meals when we visit and I was watching a program on the ABC or SBS the other night that was saying vegans live longer.

Yeh, ok.
I know people that are into their 90's and still quite healthy, and they've had a diet all their lives which consisted of animal products in part.
1 was even a cattle farmer in his younger days.
Big deal.

We all have isolated examples, which are pretty meaningless in the big picture.

Still I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone can live without bacon.

Me neither, or T-bones, chicken, pork, lamb...

[Sox]

Originally Posted by trublu

Glad to hear it has worked for you, I like my meat & must admit my body is not bad for a 60 year old, just remember everything is a personal choice & nothing wrong eating meats.
I think the big issues these days with people is eating too much processed foods, think about it.

Without a doubt.

[hawkgirl]

Originally Posted by kypez

I did some research and Animals Australia dont have that stance. They want better regulation.

As for Peta, I do understand their reservations as I've seen some pets being treat appallingly! I think certain things need to come into play. For example, people in Apartments shouldnt be allowed to have big dogs, etc.

Link below. It does make sense what they are saying. But I think Animals Australia's idea is the better option (for now). Or mandatory desexing of pets unless you have a breeders license. That will solve a lot of the issues.

Thanks, I'm well aware of whats on AA's & peta's websites as opposed to what they actually stand for. If they put the truth out there, idiots & governments wouldnt listen to their bs, or give them money, or let them dictate policy on things they have no understanding of. Like this greyhound ban, or shearing, or the housing of reptiles in nsw for starters. Peta's leader Ingrid Newkirk follows the words of Peter Singer - maybe you should look him up.

Current laws in NSW for companion animals could curtail a LOT of overbreeding if they were actually enforced.

And as for peta's real agenda, for starters:
http://www.whypetaeuthanizes.org/quotes/
http://www.nokillnow.com/PETAIngridNewkirkResign.htm
and this clanger -
You dont have to own squirrels and starlings to get enjoyment from them ... One day, we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of animals. [Dogs] would pursue their natural lives in the wild ... they would have full lives, not wasting at home for someone to come home in the evening and pet them and then sit there and watch TV,


i've worked in many areas of the animal world. Even with greyhound trainers and a dedicated greyhound vet. Not one I worked with used or condoned livebaiting, and a lot of the older heads think it actually makes the dogs slower, as of course they can smell that the lure is not real & so they are then not interested in it.

[Express]

Originally Posted by Sox

They're just fine.
Animal products as part of a balanced diet, fruit/veg and all the rest, with little processing is as good as it gets.

Yeh, ok.
I know people that are into their 90's and still quite healthy, and they've had a diet all their lives which consisted of animal products in part.
1 was even a cattle farmer in his younger days.
Big deal.

We all have isolated examples, which are pretty meaningless in the big picture.

Me neither, or T-bones, chicken, pork, lamb...

First off don’t get me wrong I’m not here fighting as I’m neither pro or anti vegetarian or the more extreme vegan lifestyle, I’m couldn’t care less what other people eat.

Secondly I grew up on a wheat, sheep & cattle property in the far north west of NSW and we still own it.

These days it only produces wheat as there is not enough money in anything else.

Meat was cheap for us as we slaughtered our own.

My grandmother never ete meat in her life and lived to 96 which is saying something for someone who we considered spent the last 30 years of it living on nothing much more than cucumber sandwiches.

My grandfather smoked and was an alcoholic and made it to 87 and my father who was a smoker when he was young and drank little had a heart attack and died at 64.

As you said our small personal world experience really doesn't provide evidence of what lifestyles prolong life as our samples are too small to mean anything.

I only know one couple who are vegans and I guess that is because it’s a tough lifestyle to maintain, it’s like giving yourself self-appointed allergies where you are constantly on guard checking everything you don’t prepare yourself for ingredients that don’t suit.

I do know a few more who are vegetarians though because it’s an easier life choice and they appear to do alright and are healthy from what I can see.

I eat white meat because I enjoy it, I don’t eat red meat because as a child we were fed it until it ran out our ears and as my wife doesn’t like it much I’ve basically given it away.

I’m not a person who’d ever give up meat completely but like you I would say to anyone who thinks you need meat to be healthy that they haven’t really looked into the alternative foods that are available.

That’s just my thoughts, if you research and balance your food intake a vegetarian lifestyle can be just as healthy as one that contains meat as the base protein.

Someone should start a vegi versus meat thread and we can start posting our favourite recipes.

Being a cold rainy night here on the Central Coast I’d start with minestrone soup, crusty bread and red wine.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Sox

Humans eating animal product is no different to animals eating other animals, the cycle of life.
It's what we do.

Then why, if an animal does kill an person, such as a shark killing someone, or a Lion, heck even a dog mauling someone, does the animal then get killed or put down. Bit like what happens to Sharks everywhere in Australia. Heck, WA culled hundreds of them.

Where is the circle of life there? Or is it only a circle as long as its not circular? One of those strange circles where its only linear...

[kypez]

Originally Posted by hawkgirl

Thanks, I'm well aware of whats on AA's & peta's websites as opposed to what they actually stand for. If they put the truth out there, idiots & governments wouldnt listen to their bs, or give them money, or let them dictate policy on things they have no understanding of. Like this greyhound ban, or shearing, or the housing of reptiles in nsw for starters. Peta's leader Ingrid Newkirk follows the words of Peter Singer - maybe you should look him up.

Current laws in NSW for companion animals could curtail a LOT of overbreeding if they were actually enforced.

And as for peta's real agenda, for starters:
http://www.whypetaeuthanizes.org/quotes/
http://www.nokillnow.com/PETAIngridNewkirkResign.htm
and this clanger -
You dont have to own squirrels and starlings to get enjoyment from them ... One day, we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of animals. [Dogs] would pursue their natural lives in the wild ... they would have full lives, not wasting at home for someone to come home in the evening and pet them and then sit there and watch TV,


i've worked in many areas of the animal world. Even with greyhound trainers and a dedicated greyhound vet. Not one I worked with used or condoned livebaiting, and a lot of the older heads think it actually makes the dogs slower, as of course they can smell that the lure is not real & so they are then not interested in it.

Interesting read. I must say I'm not a member of either organisation and as with most things I do, I always appreciate the good that an organisation does and am weary that the opinions of some aren't shared by the majority. As in the case of Peta and AA, I'm sure that most members would be flabbergasted at what you have posted (not that its not true, but that someone at Peta or AA might share that view) and engage in such activities.

If you put the sensationalism aside from your snippet, there is a lot of truth to what they say in how people interact with their pets. We could never stand the thought to be stuck in a small place all day (though many of us are at work!). We need to go out. We need to roam around. Heck, we're on a car forum, a means to get around. We need to do these things. Animals are the same and it is unfair to them especially if you dont have a big house or time to interact with them. Take a moment and see past the headline.

No different to all the charities around the world that people donate to and many skim more than they should from donations (saw one agency stop me last week on the street. Long story short, if you signed up with them, 70% of the first year donations went to a company that provided the people who were standing around trying to sign people up. only 30% went to the charity!!).

Its good be better informed. And if other organisations aren't doing the right thing, nothing stops people from starting to do the right thing. My stray pets that I found had all been dumped by previous owners. I picked them up, nursed them back to health and they are doing great now. My points earlier is that I can understand their point of view (as you have) about the over breeding issue. However, extermination isnt the solution.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by kypez

Then why, if an animal does kill an person, such as a shark killing someone, or a Lion, heck even a dog mauling someone, does the animal then get killed or put down. Bit like what happens to Sharks everywhere in Australia. Heck, WA culled hundreds of them.

Mate, I'm totally with you there, it's disgusting.
However even that's not black and white.

A dog attack is a little different to a shark attack.
Killing many sharks because of one attack, and obviously not knowing which shark was the perp (you like that ) is a ridiculous idea.

However a dog attack, where there are onlookers or even the persons family watching the victim get mauled or killed, is another story and would be pretty horrifying and traumatic for everyone involved.

Would I want the dog put down, or my own dog put down if it was the perp?
Maybe, maybe not.
I can't answer that because I haven't been in that position.

But I can see a strong argument for those that would want the dog put down.

Who's right? I don't know.

Edit - That's not to say the shark attack wouldn't be the same traumatic and horrifying experience.
Though the significant difference being that the shark may or may not be any where near the site any more.
In other words, hunting and killing many sharks which may be blameless is pretty pointless.

It would be like killing 30 other innocent dogs in the neighborhood because of 1 dog attack.

Where is the circle of life there? Or is it only a circle as long as its not circular? One of those strange circles where its only linear...

In a nutshell, yeh.
Many years ago we'd be prey to many animals too, we survive better now because of our intelligence.

You gotta understand, we don't live in a perfect world.

[Carrion]

[Mercury Bullet]

Haha, I had the misfortune of being in a chair for a few years...but that's gold!