Not Guilty by Reason of Mental Incompetence

[Iggle Piggle]

Where does Reckless Indifference fit into it all?

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by asagaai

I have had so many arguments with my old man about this- and the media 5 second sound bite, and always say you need to look at the evidence that was adduced in court, before making a comment. How can anyone make a commentary of any value without knowledge of ALL the evidence.

Aha the 5 second soundbite...

When my beautiful cousin was brutally murdered we copped all this same moral outrage.
The perpetrator claimed insanity and I thought...here we go.

The reality is not what that 5 second bite portrays, I guess I had a preconceived idea too, until I saw what actually happened.

The perpetrator was released late last year, he lasted less than a week.
In a lot of ways it would have been better had he been declared insane. No way would have I thought that at the time.

[bc47]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

Where does Reckless Indifference fit into it all?

forms part of the mens rea component of a murder conviction. however, depending on circumstances, can apply to involuntary manslaughter prosecutions as well (example of this would be a passenger who dies in a collision as a result of the driver's reckless behaviour)

as far as i'm aware there is still a "reasonable person" component to homicide prosecution with regard to reckless indifference.

so an accused is guilty of murder by reckless indifference if a "reasonable person" would consider the actions of the accused to be reckless, and the accused was indifferent to the consequences of those actions taken.

need to qualify this by saying I am not a legal practitioner, but have a bit of background in process

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by xr8cam

With the Bourke St incident, many are suggesting this could be the defense's argument. A forensic psychiatrist interviews the accused to verify the claim of diminished capacity and this is rarely granted. Perhaps you could quote your source or mention to 'read between the line'. Unfortunately, this discussion is very real at the moment so careful choice of words allround I feel.

Can you please go back and re-read what I wrote. I have tried to explain what I meant! I have no idea why you're asking for sources? I was responding to the individual who was trivialising the legal methods used to establish mental illness by insinuating it would be easy for practically anyone. I was agreeing with you...

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by bc47

So, it has been argued in various courts across the globe, that a drug induced psychosis constitutes an absence of mens rea. Generally the accused's behaviour immediately prior to the event is taken into consideration if this argument is put forward.

If the drug induced psychosis was caused by voluntary consumption of drugs-then the mens rea will be found.

At least this was the case some 22 years ago in a case I ran, involving a guy who did a robbery of a steroid factory using a 357 magnum and was off his nut on horse steroids. He voluntarily took the steroids, and so any argument of being in roid rage and being automated did not avoid mens and having capacity to form intent.

Mercury Bullet

-sorry to hear of your tragedy regarding your cousin-am at a loss of what else to say.

Just a lesson for us all sometimes to take a moment and give our loved ones closest to us a big warm hug....

[b0son]

Originally Posted by asagaai

How can anyone make a commentary of any value without knowledge of ALL the evidence.

Ever heard the phrase 'can't see the forest for the trees'?

If nothing else, a 5-sec soundbite gets an immediate gut reaction, and it is not a bad thing to remember that. The courts seem to go out of their way to get bogged down in the minutiae, and suddenly what seemed a straight-forward conviction becomes anything but.

I've read enough judgments to come away scratching my head wondering what the judge's thought processes were. Eg. going out of his way to find factors that would mitigate a harsh sentence, while ignoring factors that should increase a sentence.

Little wonder the community have no faith in the courts.

[xr8cam]

Nothing to worry about here people. This bloke will not see daylight again. Come October, he will be tried as a serial killer which is what he is by definition. Generally doesn't go to well in court and forget the diminished responsibility claim. There will be a mountain of evidence that shows conscious decision making & the state of mind to operate machinery. He will more than likely die prematurely in prison. Two words. Child killer. X2 in this tragedy. My thoughts in particular with the family of the 5th victim, the three month old baby. I believe everything happens for a reason, a lesson to learn if you like. I fail to see what lesson was needed by this act, I only pray the family can find some way to help accept the cruellest day they will ever know.

[scoupedy]

Cant even image whst ir would be like to lose your child like this.
My brother died on his motorcycle no one else involved at the age of 20 he was super fit and a model. But he had a good life and was responsible for what happened.
Would be so angry if someone had a hand in it.

[Express]

Driver’s popular gay brother Angelo still in hospital after stabbing



24 January, 2017


Emma Reynolds,
news.com.au@emmareyn



FRIENDS have paid tribute to the “sweet” brother of the 26-year-old accused of the Bourke Street massacre who is languishing in hospital after he was allegedly stabbed by his sibling.

Dimitrious “Jimmy” Gargasoulas allegedly knifed younger brother Angelo, who is gay, in the early hours of Friday morning before setting off on a 12-hour rampage through Melbourne. The siblings were with their mother Emily in her public housing apartment in Windsor.

The alleged attack was labelled a “homophobic” incident after Gargasoulas posted a series of unhinged posts on Facebook describing himself as “god himself in a human bodily form” and denouncing gay people.

“It is stated in my 10 commandments no homosexual shall rule the earth,” the driver wrote on the social media network.

“I’ll take you all out just me you need a army to take me and so far you have presented half a army army of useless wait until you see mine!” he ranted in another post.



The younger sibling was allegedly knifed by Gargasoulas over his sexuality. Source: Supplied


Angelo and his sister, Sesimani Kostaras. Source: Supplied


His mother Emily this weekend told 7 News that before the carnage, Gargasoulas fought with Angelo over his sexuality at her public housing apartment in Windsor and allegedly stabbed him in the face.

“Jimmy keeps saying to me, I’m going to kill all gays and poofters and lesbians,” she said.

The agonised mum said she was “ashamed” that Gargasoulas — who allegedly deliberately ploughed a car into pedestrians, killing five and injuring 15 — was her son.

Most of the family’s Facebook profiles have now been removed from the site. But an ex-girlfriend of Gargasoulas’s half-brother George said Mrs Gargasoulas only had photos of Angelo on her page, none of Jimmy.

Friends of Angelo, who was critically injured and remains in hospital, took to Facebook to leave tributes to the “sweet” and “positive” young man who worked in retail for a men’s fashion label.

“I cant believe something like that would happened to someone as sweet as you,” posted Ivy Linda Battistello.

“Heart goes out to my blue eye hunnie pie Angelo Gargasoulas,” added Brittany Serovska.



Dimitri, Sesimani and brother Angelo before the horrific Bourke Street massacre. Source: Supplied


Friends described Angelo as a “hunnie pie”, “sweet” and “positive”. Source: Supplied


Another left a heartbreaking message seen by the Gay News Network before Angelo’s account was removed. It read: “…your smile, constant positivity and vitality always rubbed off on everyone around you. You are a strong and beautiful human. Please stay with us! There is so much love for you in this world! My thoughts and prayers are with you my friend.”

Family friends from Coober Pedy in South Australia, where the brothers grew up with sister Sesimani Kostaras, said Gargasoulas was a “normal” and “sweet” teenager.

Alex Pantelis, 23, told the Sunday Mail he was shocked by what had happened. “It’s not like Jimmy,” he said. “He’s usually pretty funny.

“(And) from what I knew, I thought he got along with his brother fine.”

Gargasoulas has now left hospital and is in custody, having been shot by police in Bourke Street after he allegedly took his girlfriend hostage before “intentionally” ramming adults and children in Melbourne’s CBD on Friday afternoon.

Donate to the families of those killed at: http://www.vic.gov.au/bourkestreet.html

If you need support, call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Witnesses and victims requiring support can also call the Victims’ Support Helpline on 1800 819 817.


.

http://www.news.com.au/national/vict...aign=editorial

[xr8cam]

Whoever filled this boy with such hatred is as guilty as he is. Kids aren't born like that. Damaged young parents having unwanted children who are born into a cycle of poverty, violence & substance abuse rarely escape the life. This is not an excuse but a harsh reality. A couple I know of, both on methadone since teens, both have done time.Living in a public housing in a notorious suburb. One child after another, no care or love, two of the children are now doing big sentences for kidnapping & raping young girls and both these boys were under 20. What sort of society are we to sit back and let this situation continue. Something needs to change because we are going to see more of this type of violence increasing as people lose sight of what matters in life. Tragic waste.

[Iggle Piggle]

Originally Posted by xr8cam

Whoever filled this boy with such hatred is as guilty as he is. Kids aren't born like that. Damaged young parents having unwanted children who are born into a cycle of poverty, violence & substance abuse rarely escape the life. This is not an excuse but a harsh reality. A couple I know of, both on methadone since teens, both have done time.Living in a public housing in a notorious suburb. One child after another, no care or love, two of the children are now doing big sentences for kidnapping & raping young girls and both these boys were under 20. What sort of society are we to sit back and let this situation continue. Something needs to change because we are going to see more of this type of violence increasing as people lose sight of what matters in life. Tragic waste.

While I agree in principle with what you are saying...I'd imagine so would those behind the 'Stolen Generation'...which is probably why there is now (wrongly) a reluctance to step in sooner.

No doubt good intentions turn to **** if poorly implemented...doesn't mean we should give up rather than learn from mistakes and implement better.

[xr8cam]

PM sent.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by xr8cam

Whoever filled this boy with such hatred is as guilty as he is. Kids aren't born like that. Damaged young parents having unwanted children who are born into a cycle of poverty, violence & substance abuse rarely escape the life. This is not an excuse but a harsh reality. A couple I know of, both on methadone since teens, both have done time.Living in a public housing in a notorious suburb. One child after another, no care or love, two of the children are now doing big sentences for kidnapping & raping young girls and both these boys were under 20. What sort of society are we to sit back and let this situation continue. Something needs to change because we are going to see more of this type of violence increasing as people lose sight of what matters in life. Tragic waste.

Who filled this person with hatred? You can't entirely blame nurture. Some people are just born psychopaths.

[.:4:.]

I'm no expert, and am not trying to be. Like any of us I wasn't there when he knifed his brother. Maybe he had shown an improvement to an exeptable level for parole on the psych evaluation, maybe he knew the right answers to the questions even when not properly rehabilitated. Stranger things have happened. He might have been in a good mind frame until a situation which was not looked into in the psyc evaluation was done. Maybe some issue poked and poked and poked untill he snapped. There are so many different thing that may have been the cause to such behavior. I don't think any culture finds it exeptable to take the life of another, especially 5 randoms for no reason. Maybe he just was a complete nut case. What's not to say something similar happens with a person who has never been known to police and never had a record. With the greater population, mental illness may not be at a higher percentage, but there is still a larger number either way (I don't know stats so that's a general statement). Maybe the percentage has increased with the added stresses of modern life (again general). It's not that there aren't any support systems in place, but people with issues need to want to get help.

[xr8cam]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Who filled this person with hatred? You can't entirely blame nurture. Some people are just born psychopaths.

Not impossible but any professional in the field will tell you it is highly unlikely. It is hard to tell because they are consummate liars but a safe bet that their upbringing is far from normal. As I said in my post, it is no excuse, just information to help digest this tragedy.

[.:4:.]

My aunty has worked with kids from disadvantaged families for a thousand years. She is a doctor and specialises in the field. She has seen many upsetting cases. On a personal note. If I have my son in the car and someone beeps the horn, I often say "horn works". Completely innocent. The wife asked me about that when my son said the same thing when someone beeped and he was with her. What's not to say a person who grew up looking up to a person who was doing the wrong thing doesn't accept that as normal. When I was young my dad wasn't around much. He was often doing long hours at work to make a better life for the family. He missed a lot of important memories in my early life. He did however create a good life for the family. I looked up to him and looking back, did the same thing. Missed a lot of my son's milestones, but all in an effort to provide. My old man is not a criminal, never has been (just throwing that in). There is no reason you can't be somewhat pre programed to what you are around, especially if you are young. You are supposed to be taught right from wrong, but if you look up the the person doing wrong more then the person teaching right, you see where I'm going.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by xr8cam

Not impossible but any professional in the field will tell you it is highly unlikely. It is hard to tell because they are consummate liars but a safe bet that their upbringing is far from normal. As I said in my post, it is no excuse, just information to help digest this tragedy.

I wonder who "Jimmy" had contact with that his siblings didn't? They all had the same upbringing, but something must have happened along the way which turned Jimmy into a bad egg.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I wonder who "Jimmy" had contact with that his siblings didn't? They all had the same upbringing, but something must have happened along the way which turned Jimmy into a bad egg.

Valid point, but what if the 2 siblings get treated differently. I guess that's for the investigators to investigate

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

My aunty has worked with kids from disadvantaged families for a thousand years. She is a doctor and specialises in the field. She has seen many upsetting cases. On a personal note. If I have my son in the car and someone beeps the horn, I often say "horn works". Completely innocent. The wife asked me about that when my son said the same thing when someone beeped and he was with her. What's not to say a person who grew up looking up to a person who was doing the wrong thing doesn't accept that as normal. When I was young my dad wasn't around much. He was often doing long hours at work to make a better life for the family. He missed a lot of important memories in my early life. He did however create a good life for the family. I looked up to him and looking back, did the same thing. Missed a lot of my son's milestones, but all in an effort to provide. My old man is not a criminal, never has been (just throwing that in). There is no reason you can't be somewhat pre programed to what you are around, especially if you are young. You are supposed to be taught right from wrong, but if you look up the the person doing wrong more then the person teaching right, you see where I'm going.

Role models, especially for children, have a massive impact on the kind of adult those children end up becoming. But, two people with an almost identical upbringing can be very different people as adults.

It comes down to their core personality, predisposition to mental illnesses, intelligence and emotional intelligence (empathy). Nurture is extremely important, but nature is probably a very good indicator as to how someone will respond to certain environmental factors.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

Valid point, but what if the 2 siblings get treated differently. I guess that's for the investigators to investigate

Why would two siblings get treated differently? Was one sibling's core personality such that it was incompatible with fair treatment by the particular individuals raising him/her? Things can easily spiral when you have a bunch of unintelligent, aggressive people with low impulse control and a history mental health issues and substance abuse. One or more children can easily slip through the cracks.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Role models, especially for children, have a massive impact on the kind of adult those children end up becoming. But, two people with an almost identical upbringing can be very different people as adults.

It comes down to their core personality, predisposition to mental illnesses, intelligence and emotional intelligence (empathy). Nurture is extremely important, but nature is probably a very good indicator as to how someone will respond to certain environmental factors.

I agree again. My brother's is the angry one, my sister the shy one who avoids any conflict, and myself who can deal with conflict but I don't use anger as a tool to deal with conflict. 3 different personalities from the same set of genes. Nothing to say a person's mental issue isn't bred into them but not their brother. I'm not trying to get all political, but often it's easy to believe what you read. I have done that before.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I wonder who "Jimmy" had contact with that his siblings didn't?

Mr ice pipe it seems.

[mr smith]

Crimes committed while under the influence of drugs should be subject to an automatic doubling of the sentence.

[monzie]

Heard on the news that the bail justice who granted Jimmy bail has stood down from the position.

[Blue Shadow]

Can't blame the bail Justice, he just interpreted the bail rules with the evedince before him.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by Blue Shadow

Can't blame the bail Justice, he just interpreted the bail rules with the evedince before him.

He probably stood down not due to doing anything wrong, but because of the backlash he will no doubt cop from the public, and the undue mistrust for a role where you have to uphold some respect. All it takes is one reporter to misinterprate one fact then alot of people will beleive that just because it was in the news paper.

[Blue Shadow]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

He probably stood down not due to doing anything wrong, but because of the backlash he will no doubt cop from the public, and the undue mistrust for a role where you have to uphold some respect. All it takes is one reporter to misinterprate one fact then alot of people will beleive that just because it was in the news paper.

Yep, a lot of brain damage coming for him

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by Blue Shadow

Can't blame the bail Justice, he just interpreted the bail rules with the evedince before him.

Well this bloody "interpretation" of bail laws is what's got to be changed AND urgently!!
My interpretation was the Police OPPOSED bail, yet it was still granted?
Jill Meagher, this emptyhead (and countless others).. How many more will be "interpreted" fit for bail before the judicial system catches up with some semblance of reality??

[Blue Shadow]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Well this bloody "interpretation" of bail laws is what's got to be changed AND urgently!!
My interpretation was the Police OPPOSED bail, yet it was still granted?
Jill Meagher, this emptyhead (and countless others).. How many more will be "interpreted" fit for bail before the judicial system catches up with some semblance of reality??

The police can oppose all they want, they still have to make a case. Defense must have made a better case.