Is 20w50 oil a bad choice?

sednwol · 09-03-2018, 06:09 AM

My mechanic told me 20w50 oil can be harmful for my Au VCT (250000klm). Car appears to be burning oil and also several leaks. Is this correct, and if so what oil do you suggest? Expensive oil is difficult as I have to top up every fortnight, not a huge amount but enough to be expensive. Also do products like Wynns Stop Leak Engine Treatment work? They claim it rejuvenates seals. A few questions here sorry.

XC50077 · 09-03-2018, 08:14 AM

20W50 is a little too thick, I have been using Valvoline XLD 15W40 in a 2000 Verada [200k] and lately in AUS2 I6 [173k] with good results. The trick is to not overfill the oil and in fact keep it dead on full or slightly under the full mark and seems to control burning and minimises leaking. It is also a good inexpensive mineral oil and you can get it anywhere. Need to use it for a while to allow the engine to get use to it. I change it every 7500-10,000klm.
Cheers

Maka · 09-03-2018, 09:05 AM

Weres the oil leaking from? The standard original oil pressure senders are known to leak bad, its under the inlet manifold definitely worth a look if it hasnt been replaced yet.

You can nip up any loose sump bolts too, any oil leaking down the side of the engine may be loose rocker cover bolts that need tightening up too.

Oil wise, imo a 10/40 semi synthetic or mineral engine oil might be good for you, same hot grade as XC50077 recommended but a bit more flow when cold.

Imo go over your engine & tighten any loose bolts then if its still leaking bad (head gasket) well thats another story lol but id try & eliminate any oil leaks before any stop leak products, good luck!

cheers, Maka

Blue Dog · 09-03-2018, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sednwol

My mechanic told me 20w50 oil can be harmful for my Au VCT (250000klm). Car appears to be burning oil and also several leaks. Is this correct, and if so what oil do you suggest? Expensive oil is difficult as I have to top up every fortnight, not a huge amount but enough to be expensive. Also do products like Wynns Stop Leak Engine Treatment work? They claim it rejuvenates seals. A few questions here sorry.

Re: Specified Engine Oil for AU 4.0 Litre I6 Engines.

4.0 Litre S.E.F.I
4.0 Litre I6HO
4.0 Litre VCT

Type: 5W-30 ILSAC-GF2
Specification: WSS-M2C910-A1

Obviously if the engine is burning oil & it's also being lost through leakage.
You're not going to be buying Redline Synthetic at around $85.00 for 3.785 litres.

Engines burn oil if the oil gets into the combustion camber.
Normally, there are two possibilities where this can happen, via the piston rings &/or via the valve guides.

Oil seals are subjected to heat from the oil.
If you've ever dropped a sump plug into the oil container when changing the oil, you'll know how hot engine oil can be.
You certainly aren't going to stick your hand in it for long.
Exposure to heat over time will cause the seal to become harder & less flexible.
Add to this the oil seal wears where it contacts the shaft.
Not only does the seal wear, but also the shaft.

You may be aware of "Speedy Sleeves" as a means of repairing this shaft wear.
At the end of the day, the only way to rectify oil leakages through seals is to replace the seals & if necessary do something about grooves in the shaft.

TICKFORD220 · 09-03-2018, 11:57 AM

If your motor is burning up 20/50 then no other oil will be any better,sounds like the motor is tired and could do with either replacing or just live with the problem and just buy cheap oil to keep topping it up.
Those motors can be had for a few hundred dollars,not worth spending money on fixing it imo.

sednwol · 09-03-2018, 02:55 PM

"If your motor is burning up 20/50 then no other oil will be any better,sounds like the motor is tired and could do with either replacing or just live with the problem and just buy cheap oil to keep topping it up."

Shouldn't be tired after only 250,000 klm. Always had good oil/maintenance and not thrashed. It is on LPG but that engine is good for LPG. Still plenty of power. Confused?

Blue Dog · 10-03-2018, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sednwol

"If your motor is burning up 20/50 then no other oil will be any better,sounds like the motor is tired and could do with either replacing or just live with the problem and just buy cheap oil to keep topping it up."

Shouldn't be tired after only 250,000 klm. Always had good oil/maintenance and not thrashed. It is on LPG but that engine is good for LPG. Still plenty of power. Confused?

You're not the only one that's confused.........

"Car appears to be burning oil and also several leaks."

"Expensive oil is difficult as I have to top up every fortnight, not a huge amount but enough to be expensive."

Do the above statements support the following statement?

"Always had good oil/maintenance and not thrashed."

In your opening post you neglected to mention the following.

"It is on LPG but that engine is good for LPG."

It's unclear whether the engine in question is a petrol engine also running LPG.
Or whether it's a dedicated LPG engine.

The specified oil for use in LPG engines is a higher viscosity than the petrol engines.
Regardless, 20W50 is not the specified oil.

sednwol · 10-03-2018, 10:41 AM

Sry, didn't mean to confuse. Have only run 20w50 for two months having been told I needed a "thicker" oil. I will change back to the correct specification. But should a VCT engine which has been well maintained (on LPG,) be burning oil after only 250,000 klm? The oil used has been to specification for lpg, serviced by my long term mechanic.

**PG2** · 10-03-2018, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sednwol

Sry, didn't mean to confuse. Have only run 20w50 for two months having been told I needed a "thicker" oil. I will change back to the correct specification. But should a VCT engine which has been well maintained (on LPG, using oil I do not consider expensive) be burning oil after only 250,000 klm?

This is a very general question that could be answered with a general answer of yes, it could. You haven't told us how much oil you are topping up with and how much oil is it actually leaking.

Have you owned the car since brand new? Was it run properly? Was it serviced properly before you owned it? How did any previous owners drive it? There are a thousand reasons why the engine could be using oil.

Any motor with 250,000 can start using oil. Also these motors have a bad habit of leaking out of the timing chain tensioner which will put your oil usage through the roof.

Fix the oil leak(s) first if they are a simple fix and then see how much oil the engine is actually burning.

Maka · 10-03-2018, 11:04 AM

Is it blowing any blue tinged smoke at all when fully warmed up?

Some consider 250,000 km on the clock to be just run in on well maintained AU i6's..

Throw something like this in it next time imo, its lpg approved -

https://www.nulon.com.au/products/se...nce-engine-oil

Glazed bores may happen if running 20/50 for too long, dump it asap imo, good luck!

Edit - from wiki,

Other possible causes of blue exhaust smoke include: piston wear, worn valve seals, a dirty or non-functioning PCV valve, worn piston rings, an intake manifold gasket leak, worn engine oil seals and possibly even head gasket failure. Oil leaking into the cylinders can cause a rough idle, misfire and fouled spark plugs.

cheers, Maka

TICKFORD220 · 10-03-2018, 11:50 AM

Yes it shouldn't be tired at 250000km but if its doing what you are saying it certainly sounds tired to me,unless you've had the car since new you don't know how its been treated.
Motors are cheap just change the motor,simple,ive seen them quite often for about $300 complete.
I also see 4.0 motors for my bf for about 3-400 bucks,if I ever had issues with mine id just change it out,not financially viable to repair a motor that's worth nothing.

sednwol · 10-03-2018, 12:20 PM

Thanks PG2 and Maka, There are numerous small oil leaks which my mechanic has told me would cost $'s to fix and in his opinion not worth it. I cannot estimate how much oil is leaked, but it is a several drops a night, so not that much. The car backfired whilst running on gas 3 times in a row (within a minute). My mechanic found oil fouled spark plugs and a vacuum issue traced to a leaking inlet manifold. He replaced the gasket, new spark plugs and re tuned the car. Two mufflers were leaking and were replaced. The PCV valve was "cleaned". He did not report whether it was blocked. There is no blue smoke visible either on start up or driving.The condition of the spark plugs were his indication of oil burn "engine being worn" Also the tail pipe is black whereas before on LPG it was clean. I have since cleaned the tail pipe and will watch for signs of ongoing oil burn. The mechanic reports the car is now running well, which it is.
I do not know the previous history of the car, but we bought it with low klm's on the clock. I am hoping the PCV valve or the inlet manifold leak were to blame (as listed by Maca). I will let you know as this may help others in the forum. Thx again.

Blue Dog · 10-03-2018, 12:27 PM

This is what I would do, others may disagree, that's their prerogative.

Degrease the engine from top to bottom.
Also degrease anywhere you see oil or gunk buildup, for example, the engine bay, front suspension cross member, transmission etc.
What you want is everything to be as clean as possible so you can easily see where any oil leaks are.

I think PG2 is offering good advise concerning the O-ring seal on the timing chain tensioner.
You would have to remove the power steering pump to confirm (after cleaning everything)
.
Maka is spot on concerning blue smoke.
If the engines burning oil, there will be blue smoke & if it's a significant quantity being burnt, you won't miss seeing it.

If the PCV valve is defective it could be a source of oil entry into the induction system.

A compression test will confirm the engine condition.
If the engine has low compression it's a clunker & probably not worth mucking about with unless you would want to rebuild it.
If it has good compression that's great.

The amount of kilometres travelled is not an indication of engine condition.
An engine could be stuffed in under 10,000km if it's been dusted or severely over heated.
The compression test will reveal whether these aspects are a reality or not.

The advise concerning changing to 'thicker' 20W50 oil.
What's the theory behind that advice?

Because it's thicker it won't leak as much?

**PG2** · 10-03-2018, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sednwol

Thanks PG2 and Maka, There are numerous small oil leaks which my mechanic has told me would cost $'s to fix and in his opinion not worth it. I cannot estimate how much oil is leaked, but it is a several drops a night, so not that much. The car backfired whilst running on gas 3 times in a row (within a minute). My mechanic found oil fouled spark plugs and a vacuum issue traced to a leaking inlet manifold. He replaced the gasket, new spark plugs and re tuned the car. Two mufflers were leaking and were replaced. The PCV valve was "cleaned". He did not report whether it was blocked. There is no blue smoke visible either on start up or driving.The condition of the spark plugs were his indication of oil burn "engine being worn" Also the tail pipe is black whereas before on LPG it was clean. I have since cleaned the tail pipe and will watch for signs of ongoing oil burn. The mechanic reports the car is now running well, which it is.
I do not know the previous history of the car, but we bought it with low klm's on the clock. I am hoping the PCV valve or the inlet manifold leak were to blame (as listed by Maca). I will let you know as this may help others in the forum. Thx again.

Several drops a night means that it is dropping more than that.

When I bought mine about 5 years ago I took it a LPG specialist and he said that the motor was knackered. Fouled plugs etc. I changed the PCV and fixed a couple of vacuum leaks and the thing is still running strong after 5 years and another 100,000 of hard driving (my teenage P plater son drives it most of the time these days).

I was putting about a litre a month in mine when it was dropping "several drops a night". Fixed the oil leaks and it now hardly uses any in between oil changes.

The tensioner cost me 50c for an 'O' ring and the oil sender was about $40. I tightened up the rocker cover and sump bolts which cost me nothing. Sure it weeps out the rear main oil seal but I'm happy to live with that.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

This is what I would do, others may disagree, that's their prerogative.

Degrease the engine from top to bottom.
Also degrease anywhere you see oil or gunk buildup, for example, the engine bay, front suspension cross member, transmission etc.
What you want is everything to be as clean as possible so you can easily see where any oil leaks are.

I think PG2 is offering good advise concerning the O-ring seal on the timing chain tensioner.
You would have to remove the power steering pump to confirm (after cleaning everything)
.
Maka is spot on concerning blue smoke.
If the engines burning oil, there will be blue smoke & if it's a significant quantity being burnt, you won't miss seeing it.

If the PCV valve is defective it could be a source of oil entry into the induction system.

A compression test will confirm the engine condition.
If the engine has low compression it's a clunker & probably not worth mucking about with unless you would want to rebuild it.
If it has good compression that's great.

The amount of kilometres travelled is not an indication of engine condition.
An engine could be stuffed in under 10,000km if it's been dusted or severely over heated.
The compression test will reveal whether these aspects are a reality or not.

The advise concerning changing to 'thicker' 20W50 oil.
What's the theory behind that advice?

Because it's thicker it won't leak as much?

^^^ This...

Vortex-98 · 10-03-2018, 10:27 PM

Her I'd say that's a bit average good oil for a Honda civic or a monde ,these are big motors so best oil would be penrite 30 or Mobil one if have the money..she'll helix is also another good oil in the 0- 30 range but yer cant go wrong with penrite oils

Bill M · 10-03-2018, 10:43 PM

The oil Ford specified for the AU was 10w-30. It was changed from 5w-30 as it was too thin.
Bill

sednwol · 11-03-2018, 07:09 AM

Thx to all. I am in my sixties and have back issues so I cant work on the car. I'll get my mechanic to do all the easier fixes on the oil leaks and change the oil. Think I'll change my mechanic, he gives me little detail. The car blows no smoke at all and has lost no power that I can detect. After many klms the tail pipe I cleaned shows no sign of oil burn. I am hoping the leaking inlet manifold and mufflers plus cleaned PCV value were the culprits, and engine is not damaged.

Blue Dog · 11-03-2018, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

The oil Ford specified for the AU was 10w-30. It was changed from 5w-30 as it was too thin.
Bill

Thanks for the update.
The oil specification was sourced from the AU Service Manual available on this forum.

Nu66et · 11-03-2018, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

The oil Ford specified for the AU was 10w-30. It was changed from 5w-30 as it was too thin.
Bill

Its thinner where you want it to be thinner though

Maka · 11-03-2018, 12:35 PM

With my engine kays at 230,000 +, i'll be moving to a semi synth 10/40 grade for next summer.

I'm not sure if I'll run a 10/30 grade for next winter either, ive got full synth Castrol Edge 10/30 in atm, its a bit light when ambient temps hit high 30's though, I'll see what its like in winter then make my mind up which way to go.

cheers, Maka

sednwol · 11-03-2018, 06:38 PM

I am going to buy my own oil to give to the mechanic, think the VCT takes 5.2L (including filter). Please correct me if I am wrong. Ironic that the oil comes in 5 litre, LOL.

Maka · 11-03-2018, 07:59 PM

Au2/3 takes 5.5 litres, my Au1 takes 5 litres. There will be some residual oil left after dropping the old stuff so 5 litres may be right on full, just chuck it in & check, then go from there, good luck!!

cheers, Maka

NCII40 · 18-03-2018, 09:37 PM

You wont know what oil to use with out an oil pressure gauge and oil temp gauge
use the manual supplied in the tech portal to cross reference acceptable oil pressure range and then select the oil needed to maintain the correct oil pressure

selecting brand of oil , i would use the Viscosity, Kinematic, cSt at 40°C and at 100°C to help you decide as i have noticed some XW50 oils have a lower viscosity up at 100°C compared to others

Nu66et · 19-03-2018, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCII40

selecting brand of oil , i would use the Viscosity, Kinematic, cSt at 40°C and at 100°C to help you decide as i have noticed some XW50 oils have a lower viscosity up at 100°C compared to others

I wouldnt get too worked up over the numbers. I worked at an oil blending site and one week the numbers would be just over the minimum they had to be, the next week they were just under the maximum.