Cheap Lux 4WDs

[Citroënbender]

More or less idle meandering on my part. Came from discussion yesterday with a Russian migrant friend about a car for her daughter: "She needs a 4WD for her lifestyle"... (I believe this means a car to drive to festivals and doofs, not mudding, farming or rock crawling.)

With a nominal budget of just $12K I had a quick surf, lots of overpriced stuff but it was interesting to see just how cheap you can get a Cayenne. The LX470 isn't much dearer, and X-series BMW drag the tail along with well-worn M-class Benzes.

I'm curious to hear who's run a "beater" in any of these, and how it fared - what worked well, what didn't.

[.:4:.]

Now im only reffering to the m class. My mum bought one new in 01 and for the first few years it was fine. She sold it in 2016. Now it never had any mechanical issues as such, but there were a large number of computer related failures from about 6 years old to when she traded it. The airbag module failed twice, 7k was the first replacement, the second round wasnt as much but still not cheap. The gearbox computer also went at one point and again wasnt a cheap item. The central locking comouter (or whichever controls the locking) was 3500. The list goes on. In the 18 months before she sold it the repairs were 21 grand and i was in her ear to flog it off because she thought those bills were normal for a car. Body wise and trim wise with 220k on the odometer the ml was still in pretty decent shape. And unlike most modern soft roaders, whilst it didnt have diff lockers, it atleast had a low range transfer case and 255/65 16 tyres on it not low profiles. Low range had been used to retrieve boats off sand. But if your on a budget to get the look, you dont have the budget for parts. Atleast not for an 01 ml320. My 08 fairmont has had an $82 alternator and a $46 set of spark plugs in the 10 years ive had it... the ml like my ford have had the standard oil changes etc but thats maintenance which is applicable to all cars.

[Citroënbender]

That’s interesting feedback, thank you. My only exposure to fixing Benzes has been “topical” repairs (ie, not mystery faults but clearly identifiable discrete issues) and nothing beyond mid-90s. In their defence I have found them built to be readily pulled apart and reassembled, even that era.

[smoo]

I’ve recently bought a twin turbo v8 Cayenne for $15k.
I considered and looked at several vehicles from $10k P38 Range Rovers to $70k 2014 Mercedes GL350 diesel and last of the L322 TDV8 2012 Range rovers.
I decided to hold off on spending that coin until the Jeep Wrangler Ute comes out and the Ram 1500s becomes cheaper in a couple of years and reconsider.
So I settled for something cheap (to purchase) while being somewhat interesting and decent to drive.
I narrowed it down between the Cayenne and Range Rover Vogue with the supercharged 4.2 V8.
Went the Cayenne as it was significantly cheaper to buy, has superior build quality, and by all accounts appears to be more reliable.
It is a superb all round vehicle, low range with centre diff lock and traction control (some are option with front and rear lockers), air suspension, 3500kg tow rating, build quality second to none, 450hp, decent handling and good ride despite 20” wheels.
I’ve ordered diagnostic tool specific to Porsche off eBay for $350 US. I think to own something like this you need to do the bulk of the work yourself or get your wallet out.
Only issue is it likes to drink (haven’t bettered 11.5l/100km) and the interiors are pretty small on them. Bugger all load space even with the seats folded down. It’s no Falcon wagon.

[Bossxr8]

They are pretty good until they need to be fixed, then bend over.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

They are pretty good until they need to be fixed, then bend over.

I love the way people say this about Euro cars. If you take them to the dealer for services and repairs then yes, they'll get your wallet as good as a Ford dealer will.

[Citroënbender]

Agreed. There’s “gotcha” things in every marque and model. Sometimes the dealer monopoly parts, other times the cost of deep diagnostic software. Most Euro stuff since about 1990 has been made fairly respectfully of the idea that it should be readily subject to repair - logical to dismantle, good body protection, repairable sections and a rationally designed (for frequency of component access) driveline. Sure, there’s still plenty of stuff that makes the whisky-tango-foxtrot list of design daffiness - like needing to remove the scuff plates in an Alfa in order to extract the roof lining.

From the description of the Cayenne’s smallish interior, that probably pushes it out. Great comparison, Falcon wagon being the gold standard for sleep-in-the-back travel hacks.

The LX470 snuck into the shortlist because Scott from Vehcor had a roughie, and he was waxing lyrical on YT about the fairly spacious interior plus the fact that pretty much everything still worked - even the ride height adjustment - on a car hatching some serious corrosion (winter car, salted American roads).

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

I love the way people say this about Euro cars. If you take them to the dealer for services and repairs then yes, they'll get your wallet as good as a Ford dealer will.

Did you not see the post above and the insane prices of certain parts. Sure you can get them cheaper at a wreckers but good luck finding them, or having access to dealer scan tools to get them working in some cases.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

I love the way people say this about Euro cars. If you take them to the dealer for services and repairs then yes, they'll get your wallet as good as a Ford dealer will.

Look I hear you but forgetting the dealers for parts and service in this case.
My experience goes back sometime and I'm heavily involved in the Aftermarket therefore I have the added bonus of picking up white box Euro parts or from certain Euro parts suppliers.
Having gone through my day of owning beautiful 3series Bimmers and the old man a MB junkie buying new.
I have a great relationship with my local mechanic, its the labour that adds up as well when talking euro more than the good ol local cars.
I got sick and tired that the savings I could make on parts was eroded by labour.
Sure its way better than going to the dealers (robbers) but no way would I be buying a cheap euro SUV/AWD/4x4 with high k's etc.....unless your extremely lucky getting one that by the 2nd 3rd 4th owners actually serviced it regularly.
All to its own I suppose.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Did you not see the post above and the insane prices of certain parts. Sure you can get them cheaper at a wreckers but good luck finding them, or having access to dealer scan tools to get them working in some cases.

What? You mean that there's other posts above mine? (end sarcasm )

What I saw in the post above was someone paying $7k for a $300 part, that's a big labour charge!

Wrecker? I have a parts catalogue and workshop manual on my PC and the internet. You'd be surprised what OEM parts cost from Europe or the US compared to here.

Granted that's if you have the luxury of waiting for them, there was an occasion where it cost me $600 for an alternator but that was because I had to have the car back within two days and living in a country town doesn't help getting parts in a hurry for the old one...

Service (inc 8 litres engine oil) and change transmission fluid at an Independent mechanic near Bendigo .....$450

If you really must go to a wrecker there are a surprising number of Euro wreckers around, thanks to insurance companies writing off cars with minimal damage.

[Citroënbender]

There’s also good supply of affordable used parts from the UK, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland. The sellers are usually multi-lingual and happy to post anywhere. Aftermarket on many things can really make the difference on a beater, $170 for a G-wagon front glass reg vs $500+ genuine is one I’ve observed.

Support in the repair trade for problem modules is good globally, I realise this extends to the aspects of speedo flicking but also simple virginising of matching coded modules so you can start over, is pretty handy.

But I’m still keen to hear who’s abused or owned what, and how it held up. Especially weak points where replacing an unexpected part was a repeat or regular process.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

I love the way people say this about Euro cars. If you take them to the dealer for services and repairs then yes, they'll get your wallet as good as a Ford dealer will.

I'd agree but to be fair I think the more modern Euro SUVs add some truth to the decades old myth of expensive to run Euros.

Nearly all run air suspension
Traction control
Several control modules controlling everything electric down to the tail gate and rear view mirror
Expensive to repair & replace infotainment set ups.
They are pushing 2.5 tonne so aren't kind to tyres, brakes and all the independent suspension bushes.
DPF issues for the diesels, excessive fuel consumption for the petrols.
And it seems a lot of the Euro engines have expensive design flaws that weren't around up to the 1990s where they were pretty much bullet proof. BMW and Mercedes anyway.

As for taking them to the dealers, my V12 S Class has the timing chain covers leaking. Mercedes tech bulletin quote 20 hours. If true, I wouldn't get much change out of $4k parts and labour.
I can source all the seals and O rings out of the states for under $200 US and do it over two weekends. Cheap motoring.

edit: Citroenbender, I'd say the Cayennes overall interior size is comparable to a mid size car, an E46/E90 BMW 3 Series wagon. More rear leg room but similar loading space. Perhaps take one for a drive and see for yourself, if its a good example you'll probably get hooked. Non turbo V8s have cylinder bore scoring issues. Turbos don't appear to have the same issue, so try a turbo.

[roKWiz]

Don't know about the wallet but I can remember it took two of us a whole day to remove a simple starter motor from a V12 Daimler Vaden Plas. POS.

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Don't know about the wallet but I can remember it took two of us a whole day to remove a simple starter motor from a V12 Daimler Vaden Plas. POS.

A car most useful for its front subframe.

[roKWiz]

A car most useful for its front subframe

and rear end.

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Don't know about the wallet but I can remember it took two of us a whole day to remove a simple starter motor from a V12 Daimler Vaden Plas. POS.

Tried taking one out of a V8 Landcruiser ?

[Citroënbender]

As always, the would-be purchaser’s goalposts are shifting.

Currently she’s considering (internet only, no physical research) a Subi XV with 2 litre/CVT. Her mother thought the Porsche idea was preferable, probably because she knows a mug who’ll work on it for SFA. The Subaru doesn’t exactly have an interior with good space for camping in, and I suspect this might kill its chances ultimately.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Tried taking one out of a V8 Landcruiser ?

Are they the ones with the starter under the intake manifold?




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[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

As always, the would-be purchaser’s goalposts are shifting.



Currently she’s considering (internet only, no physical research) a Subi XV with 2 litre/CVT. Her mother thought the Porsche idea was preferable, probably because she knows a mug who’ll work on it for SFA. The Subaru doesn’t exactly have an interior with good space for camping in, and I suspect this might kill its chances ultimately.

We’ve had our xv for 3.5 years now, been super reliable with only a very expensive battery to replace in that time.
But they are really slow. Really really slow.
110kw and a cvt means performance is not its forte haha.
But surprisingly capable off road.

I just wish Subaru had at least done a sporty version with the brz engine. It’s got another 20-30kw.
Even better would be a wrx powered version.

Would I wanna camp in one? Maybe for one night.


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[Ben73]

There's a reason why you can buy am old Euro SUV for $1000
I wouldn't own one if someone paid me.

[Citroënbender]

Well, disappointment reigns.

In a way, because I don't get to tinker with a clapped out yet interesting barge-on-stilts. Young woman at the centre of this has bought an '11 Dualis.

[FTE217]

Well don't feel too bad, its a boring and bland ride but she's miles in front compared going a old over rated euro
I'm with you Ben73.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Well don't feel too bad, its a boring and bland ride but she's miles in front compared going a old over rated euro
I'm with you Ben73.

I would not recommend an ageing Euro SUV for a young women.
Something cheap and relatively basic like the e53 x5 or w163 ML wouldn’t be so bad but anything newer and they stared to get quite complex.
But I’ve just got home after four weeks away from work, where I’ve had to drive Hiluxs or a 70 series V8 cruiser.
Greatful to say the least, to jump in my turbo Cayenne. Try and find me a better all round vehicle...
the over rated vehicles come with four doors and a tray, drum brakes(!) and a wheezing small capacity diesel with questionable longevity.

[FTE217]

I hear you re a dual cab, hilux 4x4 is my daily lol, nothing like jumping in my Sprint or T3 but I'm not fussed of the dual cabs short comings its damn practical and cheap to run and I have no care factor compared to my toys.
The question was for a young lass into a old Euro SUV/4x4
From 1st post
"With a nominal budget of just $12K I had a quick surf, lots of overpriced stuff but it was interesting to see just how cheap you can get a Cayenne. The LX470 isn't much dearer, and X-series BMW drag the tail along with well-worn M-class Benzes."

Unless your a clut for punishment and happy to paypaypay repairs servicing being a father myself of 2 driving kids to date and in the auto parts game, NO WAY.
By the way, I love the late model Cayenne's but even for me if buying new once WTY is over I'd be shifting it prior but thats me

[smoo]

I think this thread may have jinxed me.
Loaded my tools the other night to tow 500km north. Around 1.5 tonne all up. Aimed at leaving 1am.
Noticed she was dropping coolant while loading.
Pulled the expansion tank and found it cracked. Too late to ring the dealer for P+A.
Refitted and drive the 500km with the cap cracked so wouldn’t build too much pressure. No dramas

Porsche quoted me $400.
VW Touareg use the same part and they were $260 thru VW.
Or $70US plus 45 freight out of the states for a decent aftermarket one.
Went the VW out of convenience over the $100 saving from America.

Have put 7000km on it and it’s the first issue.
Ignoring the fuel consumption, it’s the best car I’ve owned or had to live with.
Will haul up the hills towing the big Benz quicker than what an over priced Thai special would empty
I’m now waiting on the next issue.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by smoo

I think this thread may have jinxed me.
Loaded my tools the other night to tow 500km north. Around 1.5 tonne all up. Aimed at leaving 1am.
Noticed she was dropping coolant while loading.
Pulled the expansion tank and found it cracked. Too late to ring the dealer for P+A.
Refitted and drive the 500km with the cap cracked so wouldn’t build too much pressure. No dramas

Porsche quoted me $400.
VW Touareg use the same part and they were $260 thru VW.
Or $70US plus 45 freight out of the states for a decent aftermarket one.
Went the VW out of convenience over the $100 saving from America.

Have put 7000km on it and it’s the first issue.
Ignoring the fuel consumption, it’s the best car I’ve owned or had to live with.
Will haul up the hills towing the big Benz quicker than what an over priced Thai special would empty
I’m now waiting on the next issue.

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Really thats something that could easily happen to any car, just being a Porsche means they were more low volume so they dont litter wreckers like say falcons so the 2nd hand parts market isnt there in australia and most small widgets and hoses wont be on the shelf at repco. And for fuel economy, i dare say the cayenne goes a lot harder then say a nissan pathfinder or toyota prado so thats the price for performance.

[Citroënbender]

Your obvious pragmatism and sense of perspective will see it through. I’d encountered coolant loss issues with a former BIL’s Cayenne, wasn’t going to make fixing it my job so offered him suggestions from 2500km away.

There are others, like a sibling of mine, who see a worn out clutch as clear evidence the car is totally finished. I suspect the now-Dualis-owner is possibly in the same mindset. In fact, I should introduce them.