Fiesta WP 2004 won’t start

[agentsmith]

Hi

So battery went flat. Took battery and charged it over some time on an battery charger. It’s holding 12 volts fine.

Put battery in and drove away. Then all of a sudden after 20 k or so started to conk out. This happened a few times and limped it home. At one stage all lights on dash came on. I kept taking out a black cube fuse box looking thing under the bonnet.

Now i won’t start at all. Turn key and get red car / spanner light only.

Immobiliser issue?? Not sure what to do don’t wanna get it towed.




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[LeighMJ]

You got the owners manual handy? In there it should show what the instrument cluster symbols mean.

I have an 07 XR4 and it doesn't have the car/spanner light in the manual.

[11ford11]

Have you put the battery in the correct way
Negative to ground ie engine block and body

[agentsmith]

Originally Posted by 11ford11

Have you put the battery in the correct way

Negative to ground ie engine block and body

Yes of course I was driving it for a a while before this happened..


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[GTLEGEND]

Although you charged the battery to give a surface charge, is the battery actually holding that charge or is the alternator charging to maintain the charge. If the charge fails after you started it will only last 10-15 minutes of driving before it will not be enough to run the car.

Need to do a battery test with a hydrometer or a good battery tester.

[agentsmith]

Originally Posted by LeighMJ

You got the owners manual handy? In there it should show what the instrument cluster symbols mean.



I have an 07 XR4 and it doesn't have the car/spanner light in the manual.

I think it’s got to do with the immobiliser and the car won’t start because of it


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[Luke Plaizier]

Two possibilities with that symptom - either the Battery has gone open circuit/short circuit on one of the cells, or the alternator has failed. Do the battery test first. Or if the battery is over 3 years old, just get another one.

The immobiliser on the Fiesta is quite similar to that of the BA Falcon - they even use the same type of key. The key itself doesn't need a battery - it is 'excited' via radio from a ring around the ignition barrel. If you suspect it to be your immobiliser, try your other key in case it is a problem with the key.

But all of this is vulnerable to battery health. Take that step first.


Luke

[11ford11]

Check fuses with a test light
What was the black cube fuse box looking thing you refered to and what do you mean by you kept taking it out
Check for power at the Alternator main battery terminal

[agentsmith]

Thanks for the responses. I reconditioned the battery using a ctek charger that is brand new. It didn’t come up with any issues.

I also put a multi meter on the battery and it’s showing 12 v


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[agentsmith]

Hi Luke

I have tried the spare key and got the same issue. I also put a new battery in side the key and no change


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[agentsmith]

I have also brought a code reader / scanner which I’m waiting for so I can use FORScan on it.


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[Luke Plaizier]

The battery inside the key is for the remote keyfob to lock/unlock the doors. You can use a passive key, one without the buttons, to start the car and it has no battery in it. The battery should not have made a difference to starting the car. But at least we have ruled out a dodgy key rfid.

Forscan is a good option, you should be able to get the DTC's read with that - from the PCM and Instrument Cluster at least. My experience with the WQ Fiesta on Forscan though is that it won't read both CANBus's without a bus switch - the Fiesta has a main HSCAN bus with the PCM, IC and maybe one or two other modules, and the MSCAN bus has the GEM and the Audio Module and the ABS on it from memory. (Those Fiesta's had Voice Recognition modules in the UK, and an Auto-Shifting version of the IB5 manual gearbox - an earlier version of a dual-clutch transmission)

If you need to do a full PATS recode of the keys or fobs, Forscan I think can help you with that too. (PATS = Passive Anti Theft System). You mnight need a licenced copy of Forscan for that though, as the free version I suspect will likely have a useful feature like that disabled.

Luke

[agentsmith]

Hi there

I got one of these

ELM327 V1.5 USB Switch PIC18F25K80 Chip HS-CAN / MS-CAN For FORScan elm327 v1.5 for Ford OBD2 Diagnostic Scanner


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[agentsmith]

ELM327 V1.5 USB Switch PIC18F25K80 Chip HS-CAN / MS-CAN For FORScan elm327 v1.5 for Ford OBD2 Diagnostic Scanner
ELM327 V1.5 USB Switch with PIC18F25K80:

O327-1.5USB-07O327-1.5USB-08usb switch
O327-1.5USB-06
elm327 v1.5 USB With PIC18F25K80 Chip:
OUSB-A-03OUSB-A-16
ELM327 USB Diagnostic Cable With Switch

Top 4 Reasons to Get Plastic USB ELM327:
1: Latest ELM327 includes PIC25K80 and CH340T.
2: Manufactured modification to include a switch to connect to different CAN buses, MS CAN bus and HS CAN bus.
3: Designed for FORScan software, compatible with software venders; for FORScan, for Elmconfig, for FF2 and for FoCCCus, plus more.
4: Support Windows XP and WIN7 32bite.

OBDII Protocols:
SAE J1850 PWM (41.6Kbaud)
SAE J1850 VPW (10.4Kbaud)
ISO9141-2 (5 baud init, 10.4Kbaud)
ISO14230-4 KWP (5 baud init, 10.4 Kbaud)
ISO14230-4 KWP (fast init, 10.4 Kbaud)
ISO15765-4 CAN (11bit ID, 500 Kbaud)
ISO15765-4 CAN (29bit ID, 500 Kbaud)
ISO15765-4 CAN (11bit ID, 250 Kbaud)
ISO15765-4 CAN (29bit ID, 250 Kbaud)
SAE J1939 CAN (29bit ID, 250*Kbaud)
CAN (11*bit ID, 125*Kbaud)
CAN (11*bit ID, 50*Kbaud)

Product Description
Introduction:
With the cable and the one of the supported software vendors you can detected modules which are not visible for regular
OBD2 scanners. This includes showing you trouble codes, PIDs, running tests and services procedures which are never displayed by other OBD2 scanners and a standard ELM327.

Basic Features:
Reset fault /trouble codes / parameter ids (PIDs)
Change car configuration data
Run tests
Services procedures
Program certain models

Pin Configurations:
Switch position one: HS CAN - Occupies pins 6 and 14
Switch position two: MS CAN - Occupies pins 3 and 11

Supported Software:
For FORScan
For Elmconfig
For FoCCCus
For FF2
Plus more

Please note that many models (approximately since 2003-2004) are equipped with MS CAN bus, in addition to the regular HS CAN bus. In contrast to HS CAN bus, MS CAN bus is not supported by the stock ELM327, because MS CAN is a manufacturer-specific solution and located on non-OBD2 pins. This ELM327 has been modified to allow it to implement the MS CAN bus.

ELM327 supports HS CAN from the stock, because for HS CAN completely matches to the OBD2 standards. It occupies pins 6 and 14. MS CAN bus occupies pins 3 and 11.

Supported Vehicles:
Many vehicles that can be addressed using an ELM via an OBDII connector.


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[agentsmith]

Could it be the ignition relay as I have tried both keys no luck . 3 elm scanners connect to car then say to turn ignition on ...

The symptoms I had with car I have read could be consistent with this but don’t know where it is or how to replace ??


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[agentsmith]

Does anyone know how to change the ignition relay in these ?

https://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/11/...gnition-relay/



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[Luke Plaizier]

Sending you a PM.


So you're not getting 'Ignition' on the OBD2 connector?

Looking at the wiring diagram, the OBD2 connector (The DLC) is connected directly to the ignition switch. So that would be first to check - that the power feed INTO the ignition switch is at 12V. If it is getting, and not giving it out, it could be a problem with the switch.

If the ignition is not getting 12V in, the next link up looks to be a 60A Fuse F5 in Junction box 'BJB' which is the Battery Junction Box - which hangs off the side of the Battery.


Luke

[Luke Plaizier]

Based on our PM's, and your symptom of not getting power to the OBD2 port when you turn the ignition key - I'm going to make the call that you need to get your ignition barrel checked for operation. It's either that or the 60A fusable link in the Battery Junction Box. But the ignition barrel is the most likely thing to fail and has been known to do so on not just Fiestas, and would give you the symptoms experienced - no lights on the dash when you turn the key, no power to the OBD2 port, and no ability to start the car.


Luke

[agentsmith]

Hi mate thanks
If it’s the ignition barrel and my car is stranded at home... how should I proceed?

Fill my in again where I might find the 60a ?


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[agentsmith]

Here is my engine bay can’t find the 60a ??




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[Luke Plaizier]

Let me do a little prep work. Electrical work always means you need to have little maps of pinouts and wire colours for testing.

I can see the flat-pack with the fuses in it behind the battery in your image, down under/between the little square relay box and the battery. It has the big fat wire from the positive terminal feeding into it.

But like I said, I think this will be in the ignition barrel. Some disassembly of the steering covers to get behind the ignition barrel will be required, and you'll be testing some pins firstly on the connector side to verify the power feed (eliminates the need to open the battery fuse box if it works), and then some pin to pin tests on the back of the ignition barrel. If we find that the barrel doesn't connect the +ve feed to the ignition output, then the barrel is cactus and you'll need to replace it with another. And that raises more questions for me about reprogramming keys, recutting keys etc which a bit of additional research should solve.

The keys and remotes themselves on the WQ fiesta are identical to those used on the BA Falcon and SX Territory. In fact I have my BA XR8 remote fob setup to open it, our SX Ghia and the WQ XR4 all from the same remote. Which means the systems in the car itself should be similar.


Luke

[Luke Plaizier]

OK. Some easy stuff.

This diagram shows the connector on the back of the Ignition Barrel. I think. But key is how it identifies the pin numbers in the connector.



The pins are connected in different ways depending on the position of the key. This diagram shows what connects to what:



Now, with this information, you'll want to try and get to the back of the ignition barrel, and do the following tests. If any of these tests don't show the result listed, then there's a problem with the barrel.You'll be wanting to focus on the 'Run Power Circuit' tests, specifically in the 'Run' key position.




Luke

[Luke Plaizier]

Some ignition barrel pics.

Right side of the column where the key goes in. While not part of our current troubleshooting just yet - of interest the black plastic ring around the barrel is an inductive loop that activates and reads the code from the key. Other than the cutting of the key which unlocks the barrel itself, it's the 'coding of the key' that allows the car to start. If the key isn't coded, but is cut correctly so the barrel rotates, the starter motor should fire but the car won't start. In your case you get no power on the OBD2 so other than not being able to start or get lights on the dash, we are treating that as our key symptom for why we think it's either the main ignition fuse or the ignition barrel.



The connector for the ignition barrel, though, is on the left side of the column.



The next two pictures are of the connector from the loom - as I couldn't get in behind the connector on the barrel to take a good shot.

The loom connector has the numbers on the front of the pins if you look closely. 1 is at the top, 7 at the bottom.



And the back showing the wire colours:



And finally, the diagram showing the pin number and wiring colour. Note that this shows something in pin 3, but my connector does not have that, and the picture in a previous post for testing doesn't use pin 3 either.




So:

(1) Get your multimeter and check pin 4 with the Red/Black wire in it on the loom connector. With multimeter -ve on a reliable earth, that pin 4 should read 12V. If it doesn't we have a problem with the supply from the battery, which includes that fuse in the Battery Junction Box.

(2) Follow the test table in a previous post on the pins in behind the connector on the steering column. Pin 1 at the top, pin 7 at the bottom. We are mostly interested in pins 1 and 4, and making sure we have a short circuit (If your multimeter has a 'logic'setting use that, and it should beep if there is a short circuit) when the key is in position II.

If you get no short between pin 1 and 4 with the key in position II, your ignition barrel is shot and you'll have to start to research how to replace it. It would be ideal if there is a way to keep your barrel which is what your cut keys match, and your PATS ring, and just replace the electrical switching mechanism. Most places will only sell the whole steering column. If it is removable, and you can find a place that will just sell the ignition barrel, that might give you something to experiment with.

If it DOES short, AND you get 12V on the loom connector pin 4, we'll have a bit of head scratching to do.

This last shot is the best I could muster showing the pins in the barrel connector....




Luke

[Luke Plaizier]

I just found some amazingly good news for you.

The Switch mechanism for the ignition just clips off and can be replaced - probably by the switch from ANY Fiesta WP/WQ.

There's a press tab on the top and bottom of the switch itself. The bottom is easy enough to see. The top is harder to see and you need a prod to poke down between the column and the switch holder.

Top



Bottom



Column with the switch removed



The switch with the pins you want to test - especially between 1 and 4 - although it is harder now to tell what the key position is with it removed



The back of the switch that inserts over the barrel pin:





Now I may have jumped ahead of myself. Your testing may show the ignition switch is OK. But I thought this info too cool not to share.


Lukeyson

[agentsmith]

Awesome awesome info Luke I will do my best but it seems pretty tough. Should I still replace the 60a fuse ??


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[Luke Plaizier]

Read through post #23 step (1)

If you are getting 12V on pin 4 of the Loom Connector that plugs into the Ignition Switch - then no.


Luke

[agentsmith]

Hi mate
Some of the photos didn't load...

Anyone in Mel might know how to do all this and could help could look at paying etc thx

[agentsmith]

Got the new switch finally will look at changing it out today


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[Luke Plaizier]

What was the final verdict?


Luke