Current review of TAFE system.

[John 13]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I was talking over 10 years ago, that may not have applied to you in the West but certainly was the case here - the TAFE's back then were lazy, no doubt - but things have changed considerably

If people do not finish the Unit of Competency they are enrolled in we don't get paid, if we get one date wrong on our system we don't get paid - the only guarantee money is when you enrol, we get a little bit

So effectively we could deliver our hearts out, then you decide to not hand in ONE final piece of assessment, so you don't complete, then we have done all the work and not get paid for it (here)

The funding arrangement you describe applied to Private providers in WA but TAFE's were/are funded annually based on projected enrolments.

[John 13]

We may well wonder if Machaelia Cash is aware of these (anecdotal) real life experiences and particularly the state of trades today.
Some excellent points raised, but (please don't take this as an insult) I think we are dreaming !
As stated major employers, government workshops and the military were MAJOR sources of apprenticeship qualified tradesmen. (I am insulted by the populist term tradies). However outsourcing, contracting out, labour hire, cross training and dare I say many trade specific skills/knowledge elements largely becoming redundant. (labour cost vs replacement) If it's not broke etc., off the shelf units and fewer complete maintenance shutdowns.
I do believe that it is time for a different form of apprenticeships, more flexibility, independent??? assessments, provision for building on an introductory qualification fully supported in a work environment.
I appreciate that TAFE is a big target, but while they issue the qualification, check out the proportion of an apprenticeship term is actually spent there.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by John 13

The funding arrangement you describe applied to Private providers in WA but TAFE's were/are funded annually based on projected enrolments.

that is the way it was here to until a Government policy change (see earlier posts), we haven't operated like that for maybe 10 years

We get a little bit of funding when they start a Unit of Competence and we get the rest when they complete. We do get a little if they withdraw from the training after starting but not completing, it is based on a fictional Student Contact Hour's (SCH), these SCH's are set up by back room people (NOT TAFE's or private RTO's - we have control over the number they give them). If the student starts but doesn't complete we can claim a percentage of the funding, but not all as they didn't finish

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by John 13

We may well wonder if Machaelia Cash is aware of these (anecdotal) real life experiences and particularly the state of trades today.
Some excellent points raised, but (please don't take this as an insult) I think we are dreaming !
As stated major employers, government workshops and the military were MAJOR sources of apprenticeship qualified tradesmen. (I am insulted by the populist term tradies). However outsourcing, contracting out, labour hire, cross training and dare I say many trade specific skills/knowledge elements largely becoming redundant. (labour cost vs replacement) If it's not broke etc., off the shelf units and fewer complete maintenance shutdowns.
I do believe that it is time for a different form of apprenticeships, more flexibility, independent??? assessments, provision for building on an introductory qualification fully supported in a work environment.
I appreciate that TAFE is a big target, but while they issue the qualification, check out the proportion of an apprenticeship term is actually spent there.

Back in the day TAFE's delivered 'lock step training and assessment', this means that everyone was at the same point along the journey of their apprenticeship, now we HAVE to do the 'competency based' system, so effectively you have a group of 3rd year apprentices all over the place as some have proved their competency earlier than others - a very difficult environment to teach with a room full of learners, all at different stages

A lot of problem of the 'dumbing down' of trades sits inside the 'approved' Training Packages', no-one on here has criticised them, maybe they should go and have a look at them, because they are the 'bible' we (Registered Training Organisations - both private and public) MUST teach to and assess against - we can't vary

These Training Packages are developed by so-called industry experts along with some boffins

So, if you baggers care to go and look a them, you might realise the problem, many TAFE trainers feel the pain

[AlanD]

On reading through the full post list, one of the items that I have not noticed appearing is the matter of audit trail documentation regarding qualifications and competencies.


It goes like this:


When an RTO provides certification for a student in the form of a "shiny" piece of paper the RTO is making a LEGAL declaration that the person has:


1. Gained a body of knowledge as laid down in the curriculum for that qualification, and
2. Demonstrated that the range of practical competancies called for in the curriculum have been demonstrated to an approved lecturer/trainer to a level that is deemed to be at (or above) a stated standard.


The first of these two requirements requires some method of examination and this is usually by means of written responses to a series of standardised questions. That written "paper" is then kept (or ought to be kept) in permanent form by the institution, so that, if questions are asked, referral back to that paper can be made.


Where an RTO has provided such a document then the knowledge and competencies are a given - problem is, many RTOs fudge, because clearing students through competencies is the method by which funding (at least in part) for the RTO is generated.


From an educational point of view, this is the thin edge of a very nasty wedge, because it leads to "falsifying" results to the detriment of the student , the industry and ultimately the community. Unfortunately, politicians are more driven by looking for ways to minimise costs than they are with maintaining or improving standards. Right now we are talking about reskilling/upskilling our workforce. If that is a true need, then past governments have been asleep at the wheel (or on holiday, perhaps?)


Between 1988 and 2001 I had a managerial/academic standards role in a large TAFE College. Frequently I was faced with documentation from "private" RTOs showing student competancies that clearly were not within the grasp of the holder of the paperwork. Usually this was evidenced by inability to demonstrate an earlier competancy that was required to achieve competancy in a more avanced module. On occasion I chased back down the "audit" trail to find that the person who had signed off on the competancy at the RTO was engaged, at the time, on a contract basis and was no longer on their staff! On another I asked to view the equipment suite necessary for determining a competancy that was certified to discover that the RTO did not own one of the items required!


Credit transfer is whole different can of worms. This is especially true if the credit being claimed is sourced from a different country, as it frequently was. Often provided in a foreign language and almost always without any indication of the curriculum and syllabus information. In such a case it was often faster to provide the requester with our curriculum documentation, get from them a statement about which of the modules they felt they had competancy in, and then request them to demonstrate this/these competancies by written or practical test. In the interests of speed most claiments went down this track - in some instances I resorted to oral examination - it is faster.


Recognition of prior learning (RPL). Another can of (different) worms. I have no problem with the concept. Learning on the basis of experience is the method that has been used since, as a species, we started painting on cave walls. The "be shown then do" principle. But if you want the "shiny" bit of paper then it is necessary to "prove" that what you claim is fact and it has to be attested by an "authorised" person. Your trades-person will not do - unless they have been approved by the appropriate authority to assess competancies. It goes back to that word "LEGAL" in line 3. When a job isn't done properly, for whatever reason, and loss and/or damage occurs (sometimes physical injury) the RTO might be called to give evidence - in this instance your records keeping processes better be be on the ball and fast to access.


Have TAFE standards slipped? I can make no comment across the last couple of decades, but in the previous 25 years I saw them change for the worse and the principal culprit was competancy based learning, in my view. Another factor was industry pressure to avoid "off the job training" to maximise the on job time of apprentices. Frequent alterations to curriculum/syllabus for no good purpose was another factor. Frequently the apprentice employer does not have a need for the full range of competancies that a qualification demonstrates, but any attempt to "stratify" an existing trade qualification into basic, intermediate and advanced levels was met with absolute opposition by industry - How do I know? Because, without success, I tried.


The final comment is: All a qualification does is state that on a given date the holder had attained the knowledge and competencies that the certificate identifies at some time previously. What happens after that date is anybodys' guess. Unused skills, without continuous application, atrophy, and knowledge that is unused is often forgotten



Cheers

[Pis-ton broke]

Originally Posted by John 13

As stated major employers, government workshops and the military were MAJOR sources of apprenticeship qualified tradesmen. (I am insulted by the populist term tradies). However outsourcing, contracting out, labour hire, cross training and dare I say many trade specific skills/knowledge elements largely becoming redundant. (labour cost vs replacement) If it's not broke etc., off the shelf units and fewer complete maintenance shutdowns.

whos redundant?
from a welders point of view, we get irish and korean welders that out weld australia welders in the special weld class, (pressure pipe tig). irish welders have welding school, korean welders have welding school and some type of brotherhood, what do the aussies get- some burnt out has been that can,t weld for ****. imo aussie high spec welders can,t compete with foreign welders. because our training is substandard.
further; apprentices should be given special care and financial subsidy.
are we the "smart country "now?

after the covid cluster **** and hatred of chinese products, hopefully manufacturing can come back to australia.
lets support australian manufacturing!
we can do it.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by AlanD

Have TAFE standards slipped?

I can make no comment across the last couple of decades, but in the previous 25 years I saw them change for the worse and the principal culprit was competancy based learning, in my view. Another factor was industry pressure to avoid "off the job training" to maximise the on job time of apprentices. Frequent alterations to curriculum/syllabus for no good purpose was another factor. Frequently the apprentice employer does not have a need for the full range of competancies that a qualification demonstrates, but any attempt to "stratify" an existing trade qualification into basic, intermediate and advanced levels was met with absolute opposition by industry - How do I know? Because, without success, I tried.


The final comment is: All a qualification does is state that on a given date the holder had attained the knowledge and competencies that the certificate identifies at some time previously. What happens after that date is anybodys' guess. Unused skills, without continuous application, atrophy, and knowledge that is unused is often forgotten



Cheers

no truer words spoken - thanks for your contribution

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

whos redundant?
from a welders point of view, we get irish and korean welders that out weld australia welders in the special weld class, (pressure pipe tig). irish welders have welding school, korean welders have welding school and some type of brotherhood, what do the aussies get- some burnt out has been that can,t weld for ****. imo aussie high spec welders can,t compete with foreign welders. because our training is substandard.
further; apprentices should be given special care and financial subsidy.
are we the "smart country "now?

after the covid cluster **** and hatred of chinese products, hopefully manufacturing can come back to australia.
lets support australian manufacturing!
we can do it.

I'll show your comments to our Metal Fab teachers and let you know their responses.

A couple have done 'cashies' out of work for me, and I can say NOTHING of what you are saying is true

[Trevor 57]

I can't let the couple of comments about 'can't do, so they teach' go

Firstly, the pressure on RTO's to have qualified experienced trades teachers is enormous, the days of having people not up to scratch are long gone. Trainers now MUST by law keep up their core skills and knowledge up to date and are actually audited by the Federal governing body ASQA

Back in the day it was very much frowned upon if you did work outside of RTO hours, now it is encouraged as it is proof you are maintaining your skills and knowledge

Also, I know most of the tradies who have joined TAFE are ex-small business owners who got sick of the grief around running a small business. Some are sick of being on the tools all the time so are looking for a change

The money is certainly not the deal breaker, the vast majority would earn bucket loads more on the tools

For a lot it comes down to a 'life-style' choice for most - steady hours, not crawling around filth dirty on the tools

Maybe that some of the baggers just can't teach, might be good tradies but just don't have the skills to teach, so they get on some random forum and bag out those who do

[Pis-ton broke]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I'll show your comments to our Metal Fab teachers and let you know their responses.

A couple have done 'cashies' out of work for me, and I can say NOTHING of what you are saying is true

i guess all those little koreans running around on site and in the shop must have been figment of my imagination.

[John 13]

From my own personal experience within the TAFE- apprentice on the job training realms (majority of my working life) I agree with most of what the other contributors have written. Interesting to read from AlanD re. stratifying the trade qualification. If I got it correct, this is the theory that I believe should replace the one size fits all apprenticeship system.
However my own experience with competency based training and assessment was like a breath of fresh air. If nothing else it gave the opportunity for TAFE- employer consultation and for long term lecturers to reassess their worn out presentations. I realize that there was significant opposition which often resulted in no change except for more clerical work for lecturers, SHAME!

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

i guess all those little koreans running around on site and in the shop must have been figment of my imagination.

oh, we diverted away from talking about TAFE's to talking about 457 Visa holders - sorry I didn't realise

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by John 13

However my own experience with competency based training and assessment was like a breath of fresh air. If nothing else it gave the opportunity for TAFE- employer consultation and for long term lecturers to reassess their worn out presentations. I realize that there was significant opposition which often resulted in no change except for more clerical work for lecturers, SHAME!

A lot of the 'old' trade teachers got out of the system coz they just couldn't cope with the fact that the customers were dictating the terms not them


As a side note, a couple of observations:

• This is a National forum, but the TAFE's are not, and as can be seen a generalisation just does not work - all State's TAFE systems are different
  
• The TAFE/RTO ASQA processes of today just CANNOT be compared to the TAFE/RTO processes of years long gone
  
• If people are going to comment / criticise, they need to consider those 2 very important points
  
• and yes there is still a lot of very passionate TAFE trainers out there with a passion to deliver the best possible training that we can in a system that is not always perfect (training packages for example)

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Don’t get me going on the quality of skills taught to apprentices at TAFEs compared to the old Victorian Technical Colleges!
I’ve had a good 30 go through the system, and if they didn’t have prior engineering/ mechanical aptitude, as well as competent educators at their place of employment, they’d be toast!
The basics taught in the old tech schools are a thing of the past...
Basics as simple sharpening of a drill bit, lathe cutting angles on tool steel, even friggin filing a key... All disappeared! And replaced with the “bogie” that’s decimated the entire Australian bloody workforce, and sent everything offshore... The mighty OH&S!!!

Top comment, I'm wondering if the Brains Trust at AFF can put together 'how to's' of very basics such as these - 'how to' do it competently. It seems so many of the real, hands on skills have been lost or diluted. Perhaps AFF can become a virtual TAFE of Competency. I've loved articles like the Territory tune up, for eg. Young people (and old!) need a strong foundation. My own rant will follow in a sec.

[Tickford.]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

from a welders point of view, we get irish and korean welders that out weld australia welders in the special weld class, (pressure pipe tig). irish welders have welding school, korean welders have welding school and some type of brotherhood, what do the aussies get- some burnt out has been that can,t weld for ****. imo aussie high spec welders can,t compete with foreign welders. because our training is substandard.

We had a TAFE teacher come into work to "instruct" couple of the apprentices last year. The apprentices were going for a higher qualification in TIG welding (forgive my description, not my area).

The instructor apparently couldn't get his head around the new(ish) Kemppi TIG that was on our site. Said something like too many buttons and sub-menus in modern welders he complained. His welding look like sh*t. The apprentice (cert III) had a go after making adjustments to the welding machine and the weld was spot on. The instructor then had a go with the exact same settings, and his welding still looked like sh*t!!

I lost a bit of faith in the TAFE system that day. How the heck is this bloke a "instructor"?? He was in his late 40's I'm guessing. Surely you would've have to competent by that age? And be up with the modern machinery? A cert III had more smarts, and more skill than the TAFE "instructor".

[Sprintey]

Recently in the last couple of years I noted that my trade skill, surfboard manufacture, has become a teachable certificate. After years and years of it being handed down the traditional way, it will now be taught to a curriculum. At first that sounded pretty good - it would be nice to have all the work/time made official. There are very basic, fundamental foundations in this industry that have been taught/handed down via master to apprentice. And masters there have been, guys with national and world renown (some fantastic athletes too) with quality products that work, and last. I was lucky to know and learn from 3 of them.

The industry was damaged by cheap imports in the 2000s onward, and some of the older names retired, such as one of my mentors. Lifetime skill sets and excellent products. It was hard to watch as the consumer seemed to turn their back on a fantastic craftsman, then have the gall to bring the cheap board replacement to him when it broke. Some manufacturers got with the times, and had boards made offshore.

There's been a recent flourishing in craftsmanship, (last 10+ years) as longboards have come fully back and a new young generation went out and learned the old time techniques of the 1960s, all those lovely deep gloss shines and heavy glass cloths. Most older firms could do this stuff but there just wasn't the market demand before this. It's an industry where a young surfer can say "stuff it" and go out and make their own with no experience, but the initial results are not going to be all that flash! This is why I have spent time mentoring younger surfers to methods I use - are they the best or only way? No. Do they work? Yes. On the other end of the industry, CNC machining and quick/volume production also exist, with some factories going big here in Australia. And imports still compete. It's a pretty toxic industry, so knowledge of OH&S and in particular VOCs is beneficial if workers want to be healthy long term.

My own interests led me to jig making, pattern making and building my own machines. This is a very cool skillset, but I've built it on top of the old school fundamentals. I did enquire with the local TAFE if they ran pure CNC courses, for example, but had no luck. So just went out and learned myself of yt and forums and suppliers - and most importantly friends and contacts who know their stuff! The other interest is trying to do this without all the toxicity - working in OHS over the years also helped with this.

If there's a form of handing down the skillset to be good at it, it would be nice to have nationally standardised and recognised certificates, but the accountability to high standards and real gems of knowledge are found with a real master.

[Work Horse]

I believe everyone agrees we need a system to educate people that do not go to university.

What is needed to get back our world class TAFE system?

It is too simple to say more money, it is unrealistic to say throw out the current system altogether.

My limited experience leave me wondering;

I lived in the UK for many years in the 1980s/90s. Any Australian or New Zealand educated trade person walked straight into a job ahead of locally trained trade’s people. Antipodeans where respected world wide as properly trained.

What happened?

I did a TAFE course at night in the 90's to get the piece of paper. I was pleasantly surprised how much I learned, particularly encouraged by; passionate lectures that knew their stuff. Burnely, where I studied horticulture was respected as the best horticultural collage in the southern hemisphere. My Advanced Cert in Hort is only recognised in Victoria.

How do TAFE providers produce; the best curriculum that for fills the requirements of the local employers, keeps students engaged and finishes with a nationally recognised qualification?

My brother knows an unnatural amount about turf grass. He worked and studied in the USA after finishing his apprenticeship. He worked for years as the superintendent of a top rated Australian golf course. He quit after a falling out with the committee (who’s worked on golf courses?!) He took a temporary job teaching at the local TAFE. He enjoyed it, the students and administration liked him. He went back to study teaching at TAFE. He became head of his department, responsible for curriculum. After ten years he left, disheartened at the direction TAFE was headed. Government money was being cut from government TAFE and given to private providers. My brother is now the head agronomist for a national turf grass body.

How does TAFE attract and retain the best teachers?

[Pis-ton broke]

Originally Posted by Tickford.

We had a TAFE teacher come into work to "instruct" couple of the apprentices last year. The apprentices were going for a higher qualification in TIG welding (forgive my description, not my area).

The instructor apparently couldn't get his head around the new(ish) Kemppi TIG that was on our site. Said something like too many buttons and sub-menus in modern welders he complained. His welding look like sh*t. The apprentice (cert III) had a go after making adjustments to the welding machine and the weld was spot on. The instructor then had a go with the exact same settings, and his welding still looked like sh*t!!

I lost a bit of faith in the TAFE system that day. How the heck is this bloke a "instructor"?? He was in his late 40's I'm guessing. Surely you would've have to competent by that age? And be up with the modern machinery? A cert III had more smarts, and more skill than the TAFE "instructor".

that's unfortunate, those kempis are great welders and very expensive. some have lots of bells and whistles.

this regularly leads to confusion if your unfamiliar with the machine. you will find many features on a fancy welder aren't even used by welders.

however if it was my job to teach welding on different welding machines , i would make it my business to understand all the major brands. and kempi is one of the best. it sounds like the young fellas (apprentices) got the wrong end of the pineapple with this "teacher"

the kempi might be a great welder, but if its to hard for people to understand , to get basic weld jobs completed, then a more basic welder might be a better match for the workshop/site.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

I believe everyone agrees we need a system to educate people that do not go to university.

What is needed to get back our world class TAFE system?

It is too simple to say more money, it is unrealistic to say throw out the current system altogether.

Maybe it's already begun to happen. You will note the military equipment build up, after we lost the auto manufacturers military projects were undertaken including the AWD, Canberras, and now subs and T26 frigates for the Navy. I would think apprentices in these fields will be pretty secure, and will be taught how to make things properly. It was not so long ago we were having learning difficulties putting things like the initial AWD or Collins subs together (talked to one of the initial engineers) - but it's been realised as a national sovereignty imperative to be able to build this stuff at home. From here you develop the lifetime trade technical skills that todays apprentices will be handing down to kids in the 2060s.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Maybe it's already begun to happen. You will note the military equipment build up, after we lost the auto manufacturers military projects were undertaken including the AWD, Canberras, and now subs and T26 frigates for the Navy. I would think apprentices in these fields will be pretty secure, and will be taught how to make things properly. It was not so long ago we were having learning difficulties putting things like the initial AWD or Collins subs together (talked to one of the initial engineers) - but it's been realised as a national sovereignty imperative to be able to build this stuff at home. From here you develop the lifetime trade technical skills that todays apprentices will be handing down to kids in the 2060s.

Would it be more cost effective and efficent to have private industy run this for government?

Sorry did that sound sarcastic?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I am having a reno going on at the moment and the builder was saying one of his apprentices hasn't been seen by the private training provider for 18 months. It is not just TAFE's

So what is the builder doing about this ?
Isn't it part of his contractual obligation as an indentured apprentice or is he just a trainee.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Ohh FFS!
Of COURSE, we train our apprentices with on the job experience and spreading them around the various areas of the factory, with competent tradesmen! (And always HAVE!)
Some time in the CNC area, fabrication area, general machining, fitting area, onsite maintenance etc.
Our company philosophy was always to invest in generating competent tradesmen, (and not a “cheap” labour source!)... After all, they are the future of your business... if you can hang onto the good ones? (Another topic, that!)
BUT, we should NOT have to re-teach the practical side of virtually every module that their training provider (TAFE) should reasonably be expected to!
The standard of TAFE training has deteriorated abysmally over the last decade or so!... THAT is my point!
You can blame Liberal Governments, blame lack of funding, blame who you bloody like...
The simple fact IS... TAFE Apprenticeship training is sub-standard, which has directly lowered the quality of “tradespeople ” produced in Australia!!
Think back to when major organisations had their own in-house training facilities (Repco, Government Aircraft factory, Government Ordnance factory, Naval dockyards, GMH etc) working in conjunction with properly equipped, master tradesmen teachers in the Tech School system.
The tradesmen produced were world class, many going on to be industry leaders!
A far cry from what’s being spat out of today’s broken system!
Anyhow.... Not my concern anymore! Pura Vida all.

Agree, most of the team I learnt from were all world class Master Stonemason's with 40+ years of restoration experience.
Everyone of them knew every process from raw quarrying to fine sculptural carving.
Now I've reached 40 years experience but still apprehensive of using "Master" myself.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

whos redundant?
from a welders point of view, we get irish and korean welders that out weld australia welders in the special weld class, (pressure pipe tig). irish welders have welding school, korean welders have welding school and some type of brotherhood, what do the aussies get- some burnt out has been that can,t weld for ****. imo aussie high spec welders can,t compete with foreign welders. because our training is substandard.
further; apprentices should be given special care and financial subsidy.
are we the "smart country "now?

after the covid cluster **** and hatred of chinese products, hopefully manufacturing can come back to australia.
lets support australian manufacturing!
we can do it.

less victim card and lift your game bro

[hayseed]

https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/w...irus-recovery/

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by hayseed

https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/w...irus-recovery/

Make more money from full fee paying imports here on visa scams trying to get PR - well prior to pandemics taking their cash cow away from them.

[Trevor 57]

so, now we are talking Universities?

For TAFE's to get into the foreign market is bloody hard work - CRICOS - https://cricos.education.gov.au/)