Best Aussie car of last 30 years

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Unpopular opinion.
I think the Phase 3 has been dethroned numerous times.

Not if you look at it from the time frame it was new. It was so far in front of it's rivals it will never be dethroned. Sure other cars came later and were quicker, but no 1 vehicle simply reached a pinnacle like the Ph3 did. Used values prove it too. Long live the king.

Originally Posted by whynot

After praising Ford for the development of the Territory, I should also be a realist about what happened in the following years.

Ford dropped the ball. The most glaring mistakes was;

A) working on getting the turbo into the Territory when they should have released the diesel with the SY.

B) not releasing a revised front end to fix the ball joint issue, much, much sooner.

From memory, the plan was for the Territory to replace the Falcon Wagon. However, the Territory was gulping way too much fuel in city traffic for the fleets to swap across from the wagon. There was also ample warning from the various government fleets that the Territory had excluded itself from selection, purely on its fuel consumption.

As an aside, I would regularly see 18-20l/100km out of my Territory, as it was stuck in the peak hour crawl down Gympie Rd during works for the Clem 7 tunnel. The fleet manager hated me as he was being measured on average fuel consumption, and the Territory stood out in bold on his naughty list.

Fitting the diesel would have corrected this problem. And Ford lost a lot of sales because of the misplaced effort in the Turbo Territory.

I can only assume that the development of the FG Falcon in the period 2005 to 2008 simply saturated what little development capability FoA had left.

It would have been very interesting if Ford went the Prado route with the Territory. Lifted the ride height, converted the rear back to a solid axle (maybe even leaf sprints), installed manual hubs on the front, and given the Territory a low range automatic gearbox. But, that is not to be.

Ford had 3 options to choose from at the time, with 1 of them to go into production. They ran case studies on all of them.

The choices were...

Territory turbo.
Territory diesel.
Territory LTD. With the aim to try to move into the luxury SUV market vs X5 and Merc ML.


Obviously the TT won out. Cost was probably a factor as it would have been the easiest to do.

Also LPG compatible Territory was a goer, the engines even started running down the line for weeks before legal considerations killed it. The standard Territory engine picked up the hardened valve seats and LPG rods as standard. So it was fitted with the LPG engine, but with petrol fuel system. There are probably hundreds of Territory's running around there with the owners unaware they have the stronger rod "green top" engine powering it.

Originally Posted by willo56

If sales were a factor then the EF-EL falcon would be in the running

Might be wrong but I think this was the last time the Falcon outsold the commo

EF was the last time Falcon finished no 1 for a calendar year. BA outsold VY on a number of occasions, but not for a whole year.

[Dr Terry]

Just one small point here. Total sales of any single model series is not an indicator of its popularity or otherwise.

The best number is sales per month. In other words if you get the total number sold & divide it by the number of months it was on sale, this is a much better indicator.

For example, in Holden sales the best grossing models were the HQ & VE series, but they were on sale for nearly 4 years (HQ) & nearly 7 years for the VE.

EH & HT were much better sellers on a sales/month basis.

Dr Terry

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Also LPG compatible Territory was a goer, the engines even started running down the line for weeks before legal considerations killed it. The standard Territory engine picked up the hardened valve seats and LPG rods as standard. So it was fitted with the LPG engine, but with petrol fuel system. There are probably hundreds of Territory's running around there with the owners unaware they have the stronger rod "green top" engine powering it.

So that explains it! What kind of time frame were these engines fitted? Ours is May 07, after the Turbo release.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

So that explains it! What kind of time frame were these engines fitted? Ours is May 07, after the Turbo release.

Can't remember now. It was so long ago.

Probably the easiest way to identify them was the green paint dab on the back of the cylinder head, where the welch plug goes.

Turbos had red paint, LPG's had green. Standard head had no paint.

[Sprintey]

Just a bump to the thread - poll closed.

The Territory is the best Aussie car of the last 30 years, according to the forums.

But it was pushed hard by the resurgent internet-powered AU!

Special mention to our Magna voter

[Syndrome]

Where is the Holden Nova?

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Just a bump to the thread - poll closed.

The Territory is the best Aussie car of the last 30 years, according to the forums.

But it was pushed hard by the resurgent internet-powered AU!

Special mention to our Magna voter

Impressive given the ball joint and IRS (or any bush) issues that plagued most modern falcon/territories. All cars have their issues but it was pretty prolific.

[janddbone]

For the best car I sure do wreck lots of them. Noone wants to put the money into fixing them. I have put three AU's back on the road in the last 12 months. A days work and they are as good as new.

[Sprintey]

We do

Ours still going strong.

But yes, the cars reach that point at which the spend required is higher than the car's value, and then it's scrapping time. The more complex/expensive to repair, the sooner they get scrapped.

[Sprintey]

And high cost of living/interest rates will probably accelerate that scrapping over the next couple of years, too.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Impressive given the ball joint and IRS (or any bush) issues that plagued most modern falcon/territories. All cars have their issues but it was pretty prolific.

The biggest weakness on these cars from 2002 to 2016. How can a company that got burnts by the suspension issues on the XK Falcon make the same mistakes again?!?!?

[Sprintey]

Just out of interest, we had the dodge ones replaced under warranty (SY) and it was a different design. It was then different again with the SY2 which seemed to solve it, I've heard.

[Top_Ghia]

Do Australians even know what they have lost? Losing domestic car manufacturing is a mistake. Not just from a history or nostalgia point of view.
Today I priced up and engine repair on a large Korean SUV that has overheated and destroyed the engine.
To build an engine with genuine parts (they don’t sell long motors) is around $35,000 for parts alone. Or you can buy a reconditioned engine for $15,000. What do you do? You throw a $20,000 car in the bin, that’s what you do.
This is becoming normal. Once a car is out of warranty it’s on borrowed time. Any major failure or accident and it’s simply not viable to repair it.
Why would you spend $20,000 repairing a $20,0000 car that will only come with a 12 month or 20,000km warranty?

But I guess this fits with our disposable world we live in.

I’ll be driving my SZII Barra powered Territory for some years yet. It’ll probably get written off by some muppet in a Tesla.

[anobserver]

In losing vehicle manufacturing, the economic zone formerly known as Australia has lost human capital.

We saw the job outcome figures when mitsubishi closed. Roughly 1 in 3 went to another full time job, 1 in 3 went to a part time job or casual work, 1 in 3 never worked again. And the figures when holden closed were worse.

Why we place so little value on the benefits lost to individuals, is beyond me.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

Today I priced up and engine repair on a large Korean SUV that has overheated and destroyed the engine.
To build an engine with genuine parts (they don’t sell long motors) is around $35,000 for parts alone. Or you can buy a reconditioned engine for $15,000. What do you do? You throw a $20,000 car in the bin, that’s what you do.
This is becoming normal. Once a car is out of warranty it’s on borrowed time. Any major failure or accident and it’s simply not viable to repair it.

A far cry from the days of getting an exchange long motor fitted to your Holden/Falcon/Valiant 6-cyl for $1,000-$2,000 driveaway, isn't it ?

Dr Terry

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

Do Australians even know what they have lost? Losing domestic car manufacturing is a mistake. Not just from a history or nostalgia point of view.
Today I priced up and engine repair on a large Korean SUV that has overheated and destroyed the engine.
To build an engine with genuine parts (they don’t sell long motors) is around $35,000 for parts alone. Or you can buy a reconditioned engine for $15,000. What do you do? You throw a $20,000 car in the bin, that’s what you do.
This is becoming normal. Once a car is out of warranty it’s on borrowed time. Any major failure or accident and it’s simply not viable to repair it.
Why would you spend $20,000 repairing a $20,0000 car that will only come with a 12 month or 20,000km warranty?

But I guess this fits with our disposable world we live in.

I’ll be driving my SZII Barra powered Territory for some years yet. It’ll probably get written off by some muppet in a Tesla.

I agree but perhaps one upshot of EV's is alot of these mechanical issues simply disappear. There will be other risks with them but so many less bits to worry about.

Imagine if Ford/Holden had the foresight to develop a local EV platform!

[Citroënbender]

Irrespective of driveline, our attitude to repairs, remains - a strong case of Charlie Bravo Foxtrot. We even eschew the manufacturer endorsed methods for significant repairs with dull-headed putdowns that belong in another era: “It’ll never be the same again”.

Originally Posted by Polyal

I agree but perhaps one upshot of EV's is alot of these mechanical issues simply disappear. There will be other risks with them but so many less bits to worry about.

Imagine if Ford/Holden had the foresight to develop a local EV platform!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I agree but perhaps one upshot of EV's is alot of these mechanical issues simply disappear. There will be other risks with them but so many less bits to worry about.

Imagine if Ford/Holden had the foresight to develop a local EV platform!

Holden did, twice,

In 2000 teaming up with the CSIRO for development and again in 2011 with another company on the VE.

The long gone, but not forgotten, Electric VE Commodore

In 2012 ‘EV Engineering’ developed an all electric version of the VE Commodore on behalf of Holden. The plan was to develop and test the technology and possibly shift it to market if response was good, the cars held up to general abuse and proved to be a viable business proposition.

Holden originally wanted to try and put it on sale for about $50,000. $10,000 less than the imported plug-in hybrid Holden Volt sold at the time.

Seven V6 powered Holden Calais (five sedans and two wagons) were dumped of all their oily bits and a 30 kWh lithium-ion battery pack was put in its place. A 30kWh battery isn’t huge by modern standards but it was 6 kWh larger than the Nissan Leaf at the time and 14kWh bigger then the Mitsubishi i-Miev that were both on sale at that time.

The aforementioned lithium-ion batteries were hooked up to an electric motor located between the rear wheels that made 145 kW (194 HP) and 400 NM (295 lb-ft) of torque.

https://thedriven.io/2021/11/01/the-...-ve-commodore/

It's like the Ford Territory Turbo and the F6X - decade ahead of it's time before the market was keen.

Holden Commodore EV 2011 review

The first generation car we're driving is powered by a 145kW/400Nm electric motor matched to a Borg-Warner electric single-ratio gearbox and differential.

EV Engineering's chief engineer Tim Olding says it is good for at least 140km/h and the seven "proof of concept" vehicles the company will by July will have a range of around 160km. They'll also be at least 40kg lighter than the first-gen cars.

The development has already led to the company filing several patents.

"We can buy a standard energy cell and then we have to adapt them to make it into a battery for us. So the first thing we have to do is attach a set of terminals to it. As a high-volume production cell they actually weld all the cells together. That's not a good idea for a small-scale battery because if something goes wrong we have to throw the entire battery away. So essentially, this (the terminal construction) is our technology we've had to develop. You lay a sheet of copper on the ground, lay a sheet of aluminium on top of it and then you put 50 grams of ammonium nitrate on that and explode it."

https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/hold...1-review-82693

They also did a hybrid in 2000 for the $ydney Olympics

Holden unveils ECOmmodore

HOLDEN has unveiled its hybrid electric-powered ECOmmodore, the car that will silently lead the opening 70km stage of the Olympic torch relay from Uluru, central Australia, on June 8.

The one-off technological showcase was developed by Holden, the CSIRO and 26 domestic component suppliers. It is intended to demonstrate what is realistically available with existing technology.

The car uses a General Motors Family II, 95kW, 2.0-litre, four-cylinder, petrol engine from the Vectra and is mated to a 50kW electric motor charged by lead acid batteries backed up by super-capacitors.

Where a standard V6 Commodore produces 304Nm of torque at 4000rpm, the hybrid makes 290Nm at 4000rpm but has 100Nm of torque on trap from rest, courtesy of the electric motor.

Drive is to the front wheels via a five-speed manual box, a first for a Commodore.

Holden says the ECOmmodore would provide similar performance to a standard V6 petrol engined version but has not rated acceleration against the clock just yet.

The concept is designed to show how fuel consumption could be almost halved and emission levels cut to 10 per cent of a regular Commodore, while maintaining the virtues of an Australian-made full-size family car that suffers no cut in performance.

Holden estimates the 45-litre fuel tank would offer a range of 800km.

https://www.goauto.com.au/news/holde...-24/21540.html

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Irrespective of driveline, our attitude to repairs, remains - a strong case of Charlie Bravo Foxtrot. We even eschew the manufacturer endorsed methods for significant repairs with dull-headed putdowns that belong in another era: “It’ll never be the same again”.

The whole industry is toasted, the only talented people in the industry with the experience and knowledge is the old blokes who are still alive and the walking dead hobbling around who've been in it for decades.

The rest are lowly paid monkeys, imports from third world countries on 'skills visas' because you can treat them like **** and pay them **** all, if they lose their job they have 60 days before they get deported.

Or the dregs of the youth, who don't cut it for the construction apprenticeships - there's a reason there's 200-300 people applying for every 1st year apprenticeship position for plumbers and electricians advertised while the automotive apprenticeships get nothing and they're crying out for new blood to come in.

Of the **** all the automotive industry attracts to apply, over 50% drop out before finishing their apprenticeships.

Then there's the OEMs who are keeping all the diagnostics information in house locked up to kill off the independents and lobbying governments globally to stop legislation like 'right to repair' movement.

It's a sunset industry and has been for a long time - you pay peanuts you get Indians. There's parts of the industry which still pay decently but it's not light vehicle and it's not in Melbourne.

[Sprintey]

It is truly amazing what we've lost. I hear you on the construction Franco as that's where our youngest has gone.

I never understood why our government was hostile to manufacturing cars here when other nations arrange generous support - maybe they thought it should be a free market thing. Maybe the automakers knew what was coming with the electric tsunami and realised we had nowhere near the capital here to compete. Look at the trouble huge companies like Toyota (and the Japanese in general) are having with it.

Anyway, I made my own manufacturing capacity. Nothing as complex as a car though. We've now entered an inflationary environment, and manufacturers have crazy pricing power. What I can decide to charge, I'll probably get away with. If only Australia still had Ford, Holden and Toyota going through Covid, they could get a decent return on locally produced. Oh well.

(+1 for the Electrodore mention below too)

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

Do Australians even know what they have lost? Losing domestic car manufacturing is a mistake. Not just from a history or nostalgia point of view.
Today I priced up and engine repair on a large Korean SUV that has overheated and destroyed the engine.
To build an engine with genuine parts (they don’t sell long motors) is around $35,000 for parts alone. Or you can buy a reconditioned engine for $15,000. What do you do? You throw a $20,000 car in the bin, that’s what you do.
This is becoming normal. Once a car is out of warranty it’s on borrowed time. Any major failure or accident and it’s simply not viable to repair it.
Why would you spend $20,000 repairing a $20,0000 car that will only come with a 12 month or 20,000km warranty?

But I guess this fits with our disposable world we live in.

I’ll be driving my SZII Barra powered Territory for some years yet. It’ll probably get written off by some muppet in a Tesla.

Agree a lot. Compare Toyota diesel injector price for Barra injector price.

Edit: it's a discussion we've had over in the electric vehicle thread - my conclusion there is that electric is going to be so much cheaper to own privately long term, even including the replacement of batteries. So maybe not economically scrapped until about $7-10K rather than 20-30K, and perhaps battery replacements will get cheaper with scale, too. Disclaimer, currently there's still some really expensive batteries - like a 30K replacement, but others are apparently much cheaper.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

A far cry from the days of getting an exchange long motor fitted to your Holden/Falcon/Valiant 6-cyl for $1,000-$2,000 driveaway, isn't it ?

Dr Terry

The good old days. They're still hanging in there.

https://hmgem.com.au/engine-recondit...ngine-builder/

[Sprintey]

Had a gem of a 202 once

When our Barra is up for recon in another 200,000+km, nice to know it can be easily and cost-effectively brought back to it's prime.