Injectors - aftermarket vs remanufactured vs service

[T3rminator]

Just seeing what people's experiences are with the various options on injectors. In the process of ironing out an annoying issue, and with the car now close to 300,000kms, I think the injectors deserve a look. OEM injectors are no longer available. So options are:

1. Aftermarket injectors - ICON series (PAT) seems to be most readily available. Anyone had experiences with these?

2. OEM Remanufactured (not refurbished) - Seen a couple of shops selling remanufactured Bosch injectors. Cheaper than new aftermarkets. Is this a good idea?

3. Get the current ones serviced - cheapest option, but will it do the same job as a remanufactured? Have heard that if it is leaking, and depending on cause, it may not be servicable and I'd still have to get a replacement. And what kind of $$$ are we looking at for a good service, I've been quoted anywhere from $30 to $70 an injector. Big differences there.

[Citroënbender]

A serviced injector of your own will come back with flow results, you don’t get that with new.

[Trevor 57]

I have a 1997 EL Fairmont Ghia and bought credible new aftermarket injectors and they ran but were over-fuelling, so got the originals refurbished, the car runs like a dream now

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I have a 1997 EL Fairmont Ghia and bought credible new aftermarket injectors and they ran but were over-fuelling, so got the originals refurbished, the car runs like a dream now

The aftermarket ones, were they advertised with the same flow rate? Which brand?

[Trevor 57]

I got them from Bursons, but the mob supplied has gone out of business apparently.

I was quite clear what they were for. The Ghia has the Tickford I6 in it, but the injectors provided were ****e

[arm79]

Get the current ones reconditioned at a credible shop. See if you can find one that does changeover for a core deposit. Means you can do them in your driveway one arvo without losing access to the car for a period.

Or paying someone a ton of cash in labour to do the swap.

[Citroënbender]

Given the parallel inquiries about fuel pumps and misfiring or stumbling, I believe the OP is fishing for a solution to a more general problem. The only way to quantify the actual injectors as fitted now in relation to this, is to remove them (numbered) and have tested. They might well be fine.

[Itsme]

When I had my EL falcon the injectors were tested and serviced as the engine ran like a pig, had no more problems once done.
Are you sure your injectors are causing problems and nothing else?

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by arm79

Get the current ones reconditioned at a credible shop. See if you can find one that does changeover for a core deposit. Means you can do them in your driveway one arvo without losing access to the car for a period.

Changing the injectors is a pretty easy job, I was surprised. A bit of fiddling around to get access to them, but it is a pretty easy job

I got my original injectors serviced by a local bloke, did a great job and cost bugger all, cheaper than new ones and work fine

[PooDog]

This may be some help ? .....if your going to pull them out just remove the fuel relay out of the fuse box and wind it over to get rid of the pressure in the system

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by PooDog

This may be some help ? .....if your going to pull them out just remove the fuel relay out of the fuse box and wind it over to get rid of the pressure in the system

Hehe yep. Changed the fuel regulator and forgot....woopsie.

Originally Posted by arm79

Get the current ones reconditioned at a credible shop. See if you can find one that does changeover for a core deposit. Means you can do them in your driveway one arvo without losing access to the car for a period.

Or paying someone a ton of cash in labour to do the swap.

Yep I can do it, no issues, just looking for best option.

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Given the parallel inquiries about fuel pumps and misfiring or stumbling, I believe the OP is fishing for a solution to a more general problem. The only way to quantify the actual injectors as fitted now in relation to this, is to remove them (numbered) and have tested. They might well be fine.

Originally Posted by Itsme

When I had my EL falcon the injectors were tested and serviced as the engine ran like a pig, had no more problems once done.
Are you sure your injectors are causing problems and nothing else?

It is a bit of process of elimination. The car was misbehaving after the engine got REALLY hot, but that has been fixed with new regulator and I also put my old factory pump back in, in place of the walbro (which had done 150,000kms). Power delivery is so much better and more consistent with the factory pump, so I suspect the walbro was on its way out? Drives flawless once its started.

The only issue I'm getting now is extended cranking at start up. 80% of the time it will take 4-6 cranks (used to do it in 1-2), 20% of the time it starts first go. It starts up 100% of the time though.

Injectors are next on the list to look at. Given the engine is nearly 300k, they are due for a service regardless anyway.

If that doesn't work, its off to the professionals

[T3rminator]

So I found these guys...

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/134805098033

Remanufactured Bosch, and they confirmed that it retains the Bosch cores, and are flow matched.

RockAuto in the US sell brand new 2008 F150 motorcraft injectors for AU$70 each, but the part number is different. I'm trying to find out if they are fundamentally the same - size, fitment, flow rate etc.

[ute83]

I have used this mob. Ssslllooowww delivery but product was good.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by ute83

I have used this mob. Ssslllooowww delivery but product was good.

For reman injectors?

[Franco Cozzo]

Extended crank can be fuel pressure check valve no longer works properly, you go to ignition, fuel pump pumps fuel to the rail and then it seeps back out of the rail when the pump turns off rather than holding it in the rail - then you get the extended cranking before it fires.

Common problem on Commodore of the same era, not sure if it's part of the pump assembly on Falcons

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Extended crank can be fuel pressure check valve no longer works properly, you go to ignition, fuel pump pumps fuel to the rail and then it seeps back out of the rail when the pump turns off rather than holding it in the rail - then you get the extended cranking before it fires.



Common problem on Commodore of the same era, not sure if it's part of the pump assembly on Falcons

Swapped the pump with a spare that I had and still the same, so I'm assuming it's not part of the pump, or if it is then that's not the cause.
I'll do some more digging around on that.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

For reman injectors?

Yes. Mazda cx7 turbo.

[T3rminator]

Waiting for the mech to come back next week to discuss best option to take. Obviously the extended cranking start hasn't fixed itself over the holiday period.

Have done around 3000kms in the last month, and it doesn't miss a beat when driving. Though monitoring the o2 sensors, it is running on the lean side on both banks, oscillation between 0.1v and 0.6 - 0.7.

Just a though, can a dodgy crank angle sensor cause extended cranking, but not affect drivability?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Waiting for the mech to come back next week to discuss best option to take. Obviously the extended cranking start hasn't fixed itself over the holiday period.

Have done around 3000kms in the last month, and it doesn't miss a beat when driving. Though monitoring the o2 sensors, it is running on the lean side on both banks, oscillation between 0.1v and 0.6 - 0.7.

Just a though, can a dodgy crank angle sensor cause extended cranking, but not affect drivability?

If you lose CKP signal at all you'll end up with a car which won't run at all, it won't know the position of the crankshaft.

Usually if you got no CKP you won't have spark plugs or injectors firing, if you lose CMP then as an emergency some cars will revert to batch firing the injectors/waste spark ignition.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

If you lose CKP signal at all you'll end up with a car which won't run at all, it won't know the position of the crankshaft.

Usually if you got no CKP you won't have spark plugs or injectors firing, if you lose CMP then as an emergency some cars will revert to batch firing the injectors/waste spark ignition.

CMPs are new, I put the GOSS ones in. And you are right, if the CMP goes bad, the VCT goes back to base timing as a fail safe from what I understand.

With the CKP, I was wondering if it could be playing up at start up (either not giving the correct signal, or weak signal) but once started, it goes good. But sounds like it either works or it doesn't?

Every 1 in 10 or so starts, it fires up first crank. It does feel like fuelling issue or some sort, but I'm getting good power once she starts, which then puts a bit of doubt in my mind.

Anyhow, I'll leave the CKP alone for now. Have to remove A/C compressor to get to it on the 3v!

[Citroënbender]

All true, but I think the OP should at least get three quotes on replacing something that doesn’t need touching.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

CMPs are new, I put the GOSS ones in. And you are right, if the CMP goes bad, the VCT goes back to base timing as a fail safe from what I understand.

With the CKP, I was wondering if it could be playing up at start up (either not giving the correct signal, or weak signal) but once started, it goes good. But sounds like it either works or it doesn't?

Every 1 in 10 or so starts, it fires up first crank. It does feel like fuelling issue or some sort, but I'm getting good power once she starts, which then puts a bit of doubt in my mind.

Anyhow, I'll leave the CKP alone for now. Have to remove A/C compressor to get to it on the 3v!

You handy with an oscilloscope? If you can get to a CKP connector/wiring loom somewhere at the back of the ECU, you could back probe it and check out the signal - you'll quickly know if its not doing **** when its doing its extended crank.

One would assume it would log fault codes if its having CKP issues as well, as thats a no-start condition.

We're talking a BA/BF here, maybe its not that smart to log this sort of stuff if its an intermittent problem.

You can get 'pocket' oscilloscopes pretty cheap these days, its a good way to verify if a sensor is working correctly.

In future, use genuine Ford stuff for sensors if you can still get your hands on them, have had all sorts of dramas with aftermarket CKP in the past with them lasting about 5 minutes, been burnt too many times on that **** so genuine only for me.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

You handy with an oscilloscope? If you can get to a CKP connector/wiring loom somewhere at the back of the ECU, you could back probe it and check out the signal - you'll quickly know if its not doing **** when its doing its extended crank.

One would assume it would log fault codes if its having CKP issues as well, as thats a no-start condition.

We're talking a BA/BF here, maybe its not that smart to log this sort of stuff if its an intermittent problem.

You can get 'pocket' oscilloscopes pretty cheap these days, its a good way to verify if a sensor is working correctly.

In future, use genuine Ford stuff for sensors if you can still get your hands on them, have had all sorts of dramas with aftermarket CKP in the past with them lasting about 5 minutes, been burnt too many times on that **** so genuine only for me.

Thanks. CKP faults should throw a code, have heard it happening on the F150 forums.

Too scared to touch the ECU, have heard some bad stories of these aging B series ECUs going kaputz :P

I was looking for the motorcraft CMPs but couldn't find any here, so go the GOSS ones. Only to find out recently that RockAuto stocks motorcraft parts! And gets delivered here cheap!

[Citroënbender]

They can - and do - fail without being touched. It’s not common either way (touched or untouched).

A leakdown test would be one thing on my list to look at, and maybe a mechanical oil pressure gauge. I say this in light of the accrued mileage and usage type.

There’s too much looking for “the problem” rather than acknowledging what’s observed may be the culminating point of several issues. It could be a combination (random example) of compromised valve sealing, hydraulic lash adjusters not pumping up, a small intake leak that seals up with heat…

Most dying pulse sensors and ignition drivers work when cold, I know this from owning multiple Alfas and Peugeots.

[Citroënbender]

Did you resolve the core problems?

[T3rminator]

Still digging. Serviced injectors didn't do anything. I think we are down to two possibilities, vac leak or timing. It's booked into Ford to get a proper diagnosis in a couple of weeks.

Here is the weird thing. If I pump the brake once, it cranks once 90% of the time then fires up, but firing up isn't always "clean", sometimes coughs and splutters. If I don't pump the brake then it will crank 4 or 5 times. Once it's up and running, it's drives flawless. It's got me stumped.

[T3rminator]

I should add, i only went to test the brake procedure after I couldn't find a vac leak on all the other hoses. The brake booster hose is the only one that I can't take off as it has tamper proof clip on the back of the manifold.

Lets see what ford comes back with.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Did you resolve the core problems?

Well I wanted to wait a week before confirming the fix.

Had the covers pulled off to inspect timing. A visual inspection seemed all good. However, on a hunch, I asked the mechanic to pull the chains off and re-time it...just in case we missed something. In the process of doing so, the mechanic noticed a 2mm movement on the gear and trigger wheel. Further inspection identified that the key way was slightly grooved, not sure what could have caused it, the mechanic did have problems getting the crank bolt off when doing the timing initially, had to use the engine to crank it loose.

Mech had a spare boss 260 engine, so we used the trigger wheel and key way from that engine. Bam....she is all good now. Unbelievable. 2mm play gave me all that grief.

A series of fortunate events really...if I didn't ask him to pull the chains off and do it again, he would have never identified the issue. And 2mm movement....it could have easily been ignored?

If we had put it all back together and missed it, I don't want to think how many rabbit holes I would have gone down.