The cost of toll roads on the economy

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Well, maybe your fault, I was in primary school when those decisions happened in the 1990s

Not our fault you had to repeat every year 3 times

[Crazy Dazz]

I don't understand the concept of, or need for, Toll Roads.

Perth people would literally murder any politician who dared suggest it.

Seems to be a stupid idea they got away with, and nobody has had the sense to stop it.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

I don't understand the concept of, or need for, Toll Roads.

Perth people would literally murder any politician who dared suggest it.

Seems to be a stupid idea they got away with, and nobody has had the sense to stop it.

Yep, spot on. She'll be right.

Think the last toll I paid was on the Harbour bridge when the booths were still up.
No tolls in the country and use public transport everywhere in the cities.

So far spent $68 in the last 2 months using Opal. Don't know how many kms we have walked in that time.

[kevino]

A freeway trip with a truck is a lot smoother easier and gentle on mechanical parts as opposed to using local roads with traffic lights every 400 metres and associated increased fuel use
Also more time on local roads is unproductive and also if a company driver increases wage costs

So use local roads
1 more mechanical wear and tear
2 less productive trip times increased , trips per days decreased , decreased sales for day
3 increased fuel cost stopping and starting
4 increased wage cost as a percentage of sales
No brainer
Toll roads win
Foxy uses toll roads in Qld never been a directive to switch to local roads

[Citroënbender]

I’m seeing a lot more trucks with (apparent) excuses to forego the NorthConnex link; they’re traversing the former surface route.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

I’m seeing a lot more trucks with (apparent) excuses to forego the NorthConnex link; they’re traversing the former surface route.

Using Pennant Hills Rd?

[Citroënbender]

Yes, to the previous start of the M1.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by kevino

A freeway trip with a truck is a lot smoother easier and gentle on mechanical parts as opposed to using local roads with traffic lights every 400 metres and associated increased fuel use
Also more time on local roads is unproductive and also if a company driver increases wage costs

So use local roads
1 more mechanical wear and tear
2 less productive trip times increased , trips per days decreased , decreased sales for day
3 increased fuel cost stopping and starting
4 increased wage cost as a percentage of sales
No brainer
Toll roads win
Foxy uses toll roads in Qld never been a directive to switch to local roads

I remember Firefly Express doing the goofy on toll road off toll road along the old M4 being given the directive to avoid the tolls.

I'm sure they don't do that now but agree why would you drive down rough as gut back suburban roads in a heavy to avoid tolls based on wear and tear, mad.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by kevino

Using Pennant Hills Rd?

The Cumberland Hwy isn't much better.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Yep, spot on. She'll be right.

Think the last toll I paid was on the Harbour bridge when the booths were still up.
No tolls in the country and use public transport everywhere in the cities.

So far spent $68 in the last 2 months using Opal. Don't know how many kms we have walked in that time.

Might have been $80 if you had to pay for that trip to Clarendon
$68 for two months cheap as!

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by kevino

Might have been $80 if you had to pay for that trip to Clarendon
$68 for two months cheap as!

I'll have to see how much it will cost to go to The Entrance for 'Chromefest" on Saturday. Looking forward to a ride on the "Red Bus Service" (well $ydney buses)

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by kevino

A freeway trip with a truck is a lot smoother easier and gentle on mechanical parts as opposed to using local roads with traffic lights every 400 metres and associated increased fuel use
Also more time on local roads is unproductive and also if a company driver increases wage costs

No brainer
Toll roads win

ROFLMFAO

Sorry mate, you've been conned.
There's a whole world out there, full of freeways, highways, etc, that don't charge tolls

[kevino]

On Toll roads yes in Bris Syd Melb yes we have been conned.

But trucks are better on freeways be they free or toll roads rather than local roads

Wa has years and years of mining royalties to have gold plated infrastructure - good on you

[xisled]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Blessed to an extent in Melb. Western Suburbs!
Though the trade off for minimal toll roads is the occasional Sudo home invasion or the odd machete attack whilst shopping?

I guess you haven't seen the new Toll Gantry setup a few months ago on the Westgate Freeway. It on both sides of the freeway near the Williamstown rd exit/entry.

Not sure how it is going to work who will be tolled.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Itsme

The way Daniel Andrews/Jacinta Allan government have spent and wasted money in the last ten years gives credit to your solution; only government atm that seems to have unlimited funds to spend compared to others.

Kennet Government contracted first toll way City Link and Bracks Government contracted 2nd East Link.

I still don't understand how any government signed such contracts, particularly with Transurban, and then re-did extensions that literally make them one of the most profitable businesses (% wise) in the world.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by Itsme

The way Daniel Andrews/Jacinta Allan government have spent and wasted money in the last ten years gives credit to your solution; only government atm that seems to have unlimited funds to spend compared to others.

too funny though Vic Gov doesn't have the resource since Dans tenure.
I agree what b0son quoted though, IF only well kept most of our service's gov run instead of selling out to private business.

By the way I had a giggle hearing off Costello's presentation yesterday on the blind freddy voters in Vic.
https://www.skynews.com.au/australia...2894b7024b32ff

[whynot]

A interesting approach to billing customers.

One would have thought that you would quote to ship from A to B. How you got there was your problem - tolls or no tolls.

Here are two papers

Analysis of toll charges for freight vehicles in Melbourne
Australasian Transport Research Forum 2016 Proceedings
16 – 18 November 2016, Melbourne, Australia

Abstract


Public-Private Partnerships (PPP) are becoming a popular method of providing new major freeways in Australian cities. Private investors need to recover their investment costs by charging road users. Freight vehicles are typically charged tolls based on the road sections that they use, vehicle size and the period of time (day, night, peak, off-peak, etc). Currently there is no well accepted basis for determining these charges in Melbourne. As a result, there is a large variation in charges for freight vehicles when using different road sections. This paper presents a comparison of the toll levels charged for freight vehicles on sections of Melbourne’s two toll roads, CityLink and EastLink. An analysis of the charges incurred by freight vehicles for using difference sections of CityLink and EastLink shows that there is considerable variation for trips along each toll road. The direct, social and environmental costs of trucks using different sections of the toll roads and alternative roads are compared. Differences in operating costs are also presented. Such analysis can provide a basis for road pricing and relate it more to the operating and infrastructure management costs as well as user benefits.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...-Melbourne.pdf


------------------

An advanced method to provide best route information in city logistics with toll roads
Australasian Transport Research Forum 2018 Proceedings
30 October – 1 November, Darwin, Australia

Abstract

There have been rising concerns that freight trucks are diverting off toll roads onto arterial roads, in order to avoid toll charges. This paper presents the development of a freight route model which can advise truck drivers on the optimum route to take between an origin and destination. This model considers various factors when determining optimal travel routes, including truck ownership and type of transportation they provide. Primarily the model compares total costs incurred on a toll route and their non-toll route equivalent, and also considers travel time and travel distance.
The model is illustrated using a case study with 10 pre-determined Key Freight Areas in Melbourne covering two tollways, CityLink and East Link. Travel time and distance data is extracted from the Google API platform, based on all the different Origin-Destination pairs formed from the Key Freight Areas. By considering toll charges on the two links, the cost model is evolved from existing literature to consider the impacts of new variables.
Results show that route choice is governed by a combination of factors, which traditionally includes vehicle classification. This model introduces a means of predicting the influence of operator type and freight type on route choice. Consideration of ancillary and hire & reward operators show that operator type is a significant factor in determining whether or not a toll route is preferred. The former is more sensitive towards travel costs due to its smaller capacity, whilst the latter is more sensitive towards travel time savings. This consideration allows for a better representation of different road users and their preferences within the freight network.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...toll-roads.pdf

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by whynot

A interesting approach to billing customers.

One would have thought that you would quote to ship from A to B. How you got there was your problem - tolls or no tolls.

Here are two papers

Analysis of toll charges for freight vehicles in Melbourne
Australasian Transport Research Forum 2016 Proceedings
16 – 18 November 2016, Melbourne, Australia



https://www.researchgate.net/profile...-Melbourne.pdf


------------------

An advanced method to provide best route information in city logistics with toll roads
Australasian Transport Research Forum 2018 Proceedings
30 October – 1 November, Darwin, Australia




https://www.researchgate.net/profile...toll-roads.pdf

Like I was saying, lots of trucks are avoiding toll roads and hitting suburban streets because the hit o their profit margins, in machinery transport they generally do not pass on toll charges, if you do or incorporate it into your rates you will have no customers because you are uncompetitive.

If you try charge tolls, charge unloaded travel or have payment terms less than 30 days end of month then you won't get work,

Seems to vary by industry, one of my family friends does linen transport and their customers pay unloaded kilometres in the form of an hourly rate that covers depot to depot,

With us you only get paid for a machine on the float, if you drive 100km to pick it up that's your problem and if you use toll roads you wear it

[FTE217]

Question.....

Uber etc pass on toll charges for eg.
As do many industries.
Why arn't HD private business owners doing the same ?
Sure unloaded travel far enough seeing Franco's reply, loaded my word imo customer pays pass on the costs.
Wonder IF this is just a ViKtoria thing ??
roK is a private HD run biz, are you passing on any travel charges ? or is it absorbed in your quotes ?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Like I was saying, lots of trucks are avoiding toll roads and hitting suburban streets because the hit o their profit margins, in machinery transport they generally do not pass on toll charges, if you do or incorporate it into your rates you will have no customers because you are uncompetitive.

If you try charge tolls, charge unloaded travel or have payment terms less than 30 days end of month then you won't get work,

Seems to vary by industry, one of my family friends does linen transport and their customers pay unloaded kilometres in the form of an hourly rate that covers depot to depot,

With us you only get paid for a machine on the float, if you drive 100km to pick it up that's your problem and if you use toll roads you wear it

Bit like towies, I've used to grab containers and the odd truck.

Once upon a time I never charged freight for the stone I hand picked but now its (added into) included in the cost of stone delivered.

Would def charge if needed to drive on toll roads.

Geographically, I think Melbourne's toll roads would be easier to avoid than $ydney's just because of the uninterrupted urban sprawl and no river crossings sth to nth (and vise versa) due to Parramatta river dividing the city and the Nepean further to the south and west.

Larger trucks (Interstate transport) aren't really passing through Melb like $ydney (Hume to the Pacific and Great Western)

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Question.....

Uber etc pass on toll charges for eg.
As do many industries.
Why arn't HD private business owners doing the same ?
Sure unloaded travel far enough seeing Franco's reply, loaded my word imo customer pays pass on the costs.
Wonder IF this is just a ViKtoria thing ??
roK is a private HD run biz, are you passing on any travel charges ? or is it absorbed in your quotes ?

We'd love to but because the big players don't you'll instantly lose work to them, you won't be competitive on machinery transport rates, you've got to be ball park on rates with everyone else,

If you're charging tolls and they aren't you won't even get the phone call

Basically to compete you have to:

- Wear tolls (or not use them)
- Ball park on loading rates
- Ball park on kilometer rates
- 30 days end of month payment terms

It's one of those industries with few customers but a couple big ones, kind of like farmers stuck dealing with Colesworth, they'll dictate to you what they're willing to pay. The smaller operators either have their own truck (rigid tipper + triaxle tag) they move themselves around with or they don't move around as often as the big guys.

Which is fine for a niche player who owns their gear but when you've got 7 figures on finance then you need to bend over.

It's good for the consumer, you can get stuff moved on backloads cheap, especially regional VIC or if you're in a capital city and want something moved say Adelaide to Melbourne because heaps of people are coming back empty.

[Sprintey]

fwiw I see TCL is paying 4.73% div yield

https://www.intelligentinvestor.com....roup/dividends

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by kevino

On Toll roads yes in Bris Syd Melb yes we have been conned.

But trucks are better on freeways be they free or toll roads rather than local roads

Wa has years and years of mining royalties to have gold plated infrastructure - good on you

Queensland has Mining, Toursim, and Gambling revenues...

In the 80s our state was basically destitute, but nobody would have stood for toll roads.
It's one of those ideas that once you allow it, it just keeps on happening, even long after it's become unviable.

[CyberWasp]

I am probably 100% wrong and have done zero research, but how much in donations do both political parties get from the Toll operators each cycle?
Cynical me thinks that is how we are, where we are now, and can be the only explanation as to how we got here.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

I am probably 100% wrong and have done zero research, but how much in donations do both political parties get from the Toll operators each cycle?
Cynical me thinks that is how we are, where we are now, and can be the only explanation as to how we got here.

I remember in the start of the TOLLS being built that the QLD ALP Party dudes in vested in to such big time, Due to a Super investment for them ? i had their names of who the main ones were written down somewhere. and also they were into the on line Gambling.
One of them here nearly got done for child molestering but had to resign or go to Jail ! but he got out of going to Jail. and the Media covered up the rest !

Allways when Tolles went up in the past for bridges in Brisbane you had a Date set around about's for when the day that the Toll would come to an end in fact !
No one back in them days was as stupid as people are nowadays and just let Companys dominate over the People like a Nazi ! and they do act like Nazis in fact ! They have it all sowen up ! Everything !

Back When i was a Contractor, if i had the Power like them to get Payed i would be wealthy ! people could owe me money and Stiff chance of getting payed for many reasons, not my fault at all ! but if the Government can give them such Powers to get money in ! why not me ?

We were heading down the right track, so to be able to get Pay in once so not to be hung out to dry so easy. because the National Party was on our side, but the Liberals in Co with the Nationals shaftered us big time ! knocking it all on the head directly on day one ! They only feed the Top end of Town looking after the Fat cats.

So we see the people are being shafted big time in the last 30 years by Governments and their mates in a Mafia ?
It's everything that we are being talken for fools seriously !
We pay 3 times more for power than we should and could in fact but the Media does not expose it all !
We are paying stupid price for fuel and the People could not care less at all in fact !
The People are just like Mushrooms ! keept in the dark and fed sh1t !

Look at all of the scare tactics used by the Media and Governments, it's all total BS ! Fear of Trump nothing but lies comming from criminals who clearly want to undermine the People in fact ! look what they do ! are they not just shafting you !

[Syndrome]

Transurban was started to build one toll road in Melbourne three decades ago. That original contract must have been hugely lucrative as look at how many toll roads they now operate!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transurban

I refuse to use toll roads as I am already paying for roads every time I pay for petrol. So why do I need to pay a second time to a private consortium? Public infrastructure should be in public hands.
Paying tolls like using the Westgate Bridge was different as that went to the public coffers.

[Franco Cozzo]

The Kennett government went on a mad privatising sell-off to raise funds so they ****ed off lots of VIC Government assets to plug a ~$30B hole in our coffers.

Instead of borrowing the $4B to build CityLink they decided to farm it out to Transurban, then successive governments keep reaching out to them to build freeway infrastructure that are toll roads.

I don't particularly like the wrinkly old ball sack Jeff Kennett but the thing I hold him in the most contempt for is CityLink, then successive governments perpetuated it - **** them too regardless of what colour tie they wear.

If we're going to have toll roads I'd rather the government build them and we pay the government, or the government fund raise through gambling like a lotto, pokies or sports betting. Why doesn't the government have a betting agency? We love gambling as a society.

Current government privatised the registration department of VicRoads - imagine privatising a government department with no competitors, it's a monopoly that raises money for the government.

And we sold it off for a couple bucks because we're retards.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The Kennett government went on a mad privatising sell-off to raise funds so they ****ed off lots of VIC Government assets to plug a ~$30B hole in our coffers.

Instead of borrowing the $4B to build CityLink they decided to farm it out to Transurban, then successive governments keep reaching out to them to build freeway infrastructure that are toll roads.

I don't particularly like the wrinkly old ball sack Jeff Kennett but the thing I hold him in the most contempt for is CityLink, then successive governments perpetuated it - **** them too regardless of what colour tie they wear.

If we're going to have toll roads I'd rather the government build them and we pay the government, or the government fund raise through gambling like a lotto, pokies or sports betting. Why doesn't the government have a betting agency? We love gambling as a society.

Current government privatised the registration department of VicRoads - imagine privatising a government department with no competitors, it's a monopoly that raises money for the government.

And we sold it off for a couple bucks because we're retards.

If Kennet did not do it, someone else would have, don't get me wrong I'm no fan of this man.
It was a matter of time before we went down the path of privatising our utilities and assets to be viable.

[AMB]

When its in the hands of private industry, any and all costs are potentially tax deductible. So we pay the tolls, and they minimise tax on the income from the tolls. If they pay less tax, we have to pay more tax, government tax income has to come from somewhere. When road construction and maintenance is in the hands of government, its paid directly from our taxes.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Itsme

If Kennet did not do it, someone else would have, don't get me wrong I'm no fan of this man.
It was a matter of time before we went down the path of privatising our utilities and assets to be viable.

It's like selling the farm and the cows and buying the milk back from its new owners - it just was a short term sugar fix but it caused widespread long term damage,

Now we have no assets producing income for the government, aside from having a sook to the federal government for more GST.

Except water infrastructure and that's about it, we sold everything else.

Kind of reminds me when my previous employer, they owned a 4000m2 property in Kensington that they had been in since 1985 but sold it off cheap for the board to keep their scam going in 2009,

Then new landlord eventually got it rezoned from industrial into a residential development for 120x apartments and the land value skyrocketed from $2.3M to $18M and suddenly my old employer had to foot a 7 figure land tax bill for them.

Talk about smooth brain move