Has Vicroads lost the plot?

[Silver Ghia]

Reading this mornings Herald-Sun on the story about the 7 deaths this week in a head-on near Donald (Vic) has highlighted Vicroads incompetence in assessing designs of roads and road intersections.

The intersection where this accident happened was on a straight section of road which then curved to the right where the intersecting road went straight ahead. This formed a y- intersection. It seems that the car travelling along the intersecting road must not have realised there was an intersection ahead, but a straight road that continued on. The van going the other way went around the bend in the road it was on, into the path of the oncoming car.

Apparently the council applied for an upgrade of the intersection in 2000, but Vicroads inspected the intersection and did not support the upgrade as there were no crashes reported there in the previous 5 years. In fact the local police filed a report on the danger some 4 decades previously.

Looking at the photos of this intersection in the paper, it is easy to see how dangerous it is, and how this accident happened.

Now this accident has happened, this intersection will now get the attention it should have got already. Its too late now.

To push the point further about Vicroads incompetence:

- the general Vicroads outdated philosophy used in highway and freeway intersection design compared to modern practices used in the UK. Here in Vic, no matter how major the intersecting freeway is, traffic has to merge into the left hand lanes to turn off, causing traffic flow problems. For example, turning from the Westgate freeway (travelling west) into Citylink freeway to the airport, that then goes over the Bolte bridge. (Not to mention the totally inadequate banking of the 270 deg turn here that has caused numerous trucks to overturn). Also this is evident when veering off to join the South Gippsland Freeway from Monash Freeway. In the UK, the motorways split, with adequate warnings and 'Get In' lanes and signs, which allows traffic to divert with much more safety and traffic freeflow.

-The Calder Highway schemozzle between Melton turnoff and Calder raceway, where there is a multitude of intersecting and access roads without any speed up or slow down lanes, and numerous steel posts concreted right next to the road, ready to catch any car that strays slightly and cause a major accident.

-Other examples that would make this post too long to read.

[charles_wif_xf]

Vicroads lost the plot many eons ago.

[EBII Fairmont]

It's so annoying that they wait for something like this to happen to fix the problem. If they spent that cash earlier to fix this road, it never would of happened.

I've been having a battle with the council about one of the streets next to us. People drive through this intersection like nutcases, and there is always some moron that has parked in a no standing zone. But yet again, someone will have to put their life first, so these morons can wake up and fix a problem.

[Full Noise]

Although I do agree that Vicroads generally have no idea, I don’t agree with them being responsible for this tragic accident near Donald. Regardless of the road design there were two clearly marked “Give Way” signs that one of the drivers missed for whatever reason, we’ll never know.

DRIVER ERROR caused this accident.

The understanding that I have is that there has never been a serious accident and there has never been a fatality at this intersection. There are quite a few intersections like this around this part of the state. There is one on the north side of Charlton on the Calder highway that has been upgraded to a T intersection, however, this is the main highway. There’s an almost identical intersection to this near Towaninny at the Quambatook turn off.

These intersections require a driver’s full attention and are not very forgiving to those who aren’t familiar and don’t concentrate. Drivers need to take a little more responsibility for their actions, however, the Calder Freeway at Keilor is a disaster and all of the side roads should be closed before more people get killed.

My 2 cents

[snypereb]

HAHA they lost the plot years ago!!

[vztrt]

Maybe they should have put a speed camera in, that would have fixed it!!

[Dave_au]

Time to play devil's advocate.

I think everyone seems to have some sort of issue that it's always someone elses fault, especially when you can so easily place the blame on a government department.

To be honest I haven't been watching the story in depth about the accident but from my understanding is that the car ran the giveway/failed to giveway, and I believe the intersection was signposted as a giveway.

I can see the point people are trying to take on the so called apparent negligence of Vicroads but I think the buck stops here with the driver of the car - he/she ran the giveway, and a tragic accident resulted.

Society has to start to ask itself how it wishes to be governed, plenty of people wished vicroads/rta don't run their speed camera/double demerit campaigns - that we don't need bigbrother telling us what we can or can't do on the roads within reason. Now people on the news and in the papers are infering that vicroads was to blame for this accident because they didn't interfere with this country intersection enough.

[Full Spectrum]

When you got a budget to go on and you have something out in the middle of nowhere comapred to in the middle of somewhere you know what always miss's out.
More funding is always needed for the areas that are not used like city streets.

[klawsterfobik]

Yes they have definitely lost the plot. If I can, I would like to direct you to THIS masterpiece.

It’s the Geelong ring road, which ends at a T intersection on the road to COLAC of all places (that’s where Stingray and co come from on Neighbours!!!). Instead of following it through to the Surf Coast highway so people can get to Torquay and the surf coast without having to go through a residential area...

I’m sure that there are other examples, but this is in my head at the moment.

[XR6-VCT-2000]

Did they ever have the plot ?

There is an intersection exactelly the same as this just past mornington on the way to invaloch , bloody dangerous ! .

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

To be honest I haven't been watching the story in depth about the accident but from my understanding is that the car ran the giveway/failed to giveway, and I believe the intersection was signposted as a giveway.

I believe that to be true also from what I have seen on the news. But I must admit when you have been driving for a long stretch in the country, a small give way sign would have probably blended in with all those other signs they have that indicate recommended corner speed, although they are different colours.

I did not completely see what signage they had, but I would think a massive sign would have been neccesary for that sort of intersection.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I did not completely see what signage they had, but I would think a massive sign would have been neccesary for that sort of intersection.

The give way signs are absolutely huge, and there are two of them. One mounted on each side of the road. They would probably be 4 ft x 4 ft or even larger and they are mounted around 5 ft off the ground with no obstructions.

If a driver can’t see these, they shouldn’t be driving.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

The give way signs are absolutely huge, and there are two of them. One mounted on each side of the road. They would probably be 4 ft x 4 ft or even larger and they are mounted around 5 ft off the ground with no obstructions.

If a driver can’t see these, they shouldn’t be driving.

Thanks for that clarification. As I said I did not know. Could have been fatigue or just plainly risked it.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Thanks for that clarification. As I said I did not know. Could have been fatigue or just plainly risked it.

I don’t have time at the moment, but later on tonight I will post a photograph showing the give way signs.

[Outbackjack]

The driver of one of these vehicles obviously made a mistake. But they paid for it with their life. If a road allows this sort of outcome because of a mistake of a driver, then the road needs to be very closely looked at.

[Smoked]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

DRIVER ERROR caused this accident.

OK. Im a Civil Engineering student.

Totally right. the Give way signs could get much bigger without requiring their own post codes.

[XR6-VCT-2000]

I dont know what the speed limit was for that intersection , but the curved 'Y' intersection down just past mornington way is pretty bad and has giveway signs too !.

Now... during a day this intersection isn't too bad because you can catch the road out of the corner of your eye merging into the road your on (except you have to give way !, and your on the main road !)..

The speed limit on the road which you travel in which you have to give way is about 80km i think ( been a while since i been down that way ).

Usually when you see a giveway sign you expect to come to a T intersection, or if giving way from a Y intersection usually you are the one that gives way to the main road , not in the case of this Y intersection.

The giveway signs are right on the point of where the roads merge !, no streetlights down there of a night either ! .. Now if you were cruising down that 80km main road then all of a sudden saw a giveway sign you'de expect a t intersection or something to be aproaching or something like that ...

The way it is though, is that you come around the bend doing 80km , can't see the giveway sign until your around the bend , by which time its to late to slow down , never the less / you don't expect a road merging in from your left / and probably thinking by normal road setups that you wouldn't be giving way to that road even if u did see it (realy they should be giving way to you), you'de think the giveway sign was for an oncoming T intersection or something .

A realy stupid setup , there has been many crashes on this intersection in the past too. They might have cleaned it up by now , i really dont know , i havent been down that way for about a year , but from what i saw on tv of the intersection mentioned , it looked identicle to the setup just past mornington i was describing . cheers .

[max]

Cars are big, heavy and hard. They can crunch up. They can injure and kill.
Humans drive cars.
Biggest characteristic of humans is they are faulty, they make mistakes all the time.
When Nicolas Cugnot invented the first automobile in 1769 he knew it was also a weapon, he had the first collision with it resulting in injury.
Everything within the realms of possibility should be done to counteract the certainty that driver's will always make mistakes. That is to say accidents will always happen but initiatives to minimise their frequency and seriousness need to be a high priority of governments state and federal, and also the corporate sector. All innovations for road safety and vehicle safety improvement should be richly rewarded by governments and the corporate sector.

[LTDHO]

There are plenty of poor designed roads and intersections throughout Victoria.

How ever it is 100% the drivers responsibility to how their vehicle is navigated. It is true, everyone is always quick to point the finger. It is time drivers started taking more responsibility for their actions. This will dramatically decrease the road toll.

[S3SR]

give someone power and all they want is more power and more money full stop nothing more to it. want proof open a history book.

and it will continue to happen because we do nothing about it.

[uranium_death]

We live in a society that is ruled by people are who reactive, not proactive.

Unforunately, governments only do things when they become a problem. This example is perfect.

Often, I approach intersections and there are no signs around. Well, there are, but they're put in stupid locations so you can't see them, often obscured by a tree.

Vicroads lost the plot a long time ago.

They need to reinstate the talking monkeys taht once worked there.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

The driver of one of these vehicles obviously made a mistake. But they paid for it with their life. If a road allows this sort of outcome because of a mistake of a driver, then the road needs to be very closely looked at.

Unfortunately not everyone is perfect 100% all the time. That is why these accidents happen, and the danger needs to be removed to avoid these accidents. Looking at the photo in the paper of the road from the direction the car was going, it is a perfectly straight section of road. Just imagine driving for many kilometers with your eyes fixd on the road, it would be most unusual to suddenly face a pair of give way signs along a straight bit of road, with no sign of an intersecting road. Perhaps they saw these signs but didnt take notice until too late, who knows?

However I bet that Vicroads in their wisdom will now go completely overboard and as well as making it a 'T' intersection, they will bring the speed limit in that whole area down to 80 or even 60kmph as they normally do in 'black spot' locations. Whats the point in reducing the speed limit when the danger no longer exists?

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Reading this mornings Herald-Sun on the story about the 7 deaths this week in a head-on near Donald (Vic) has highlighted Vicroads incompetence in assessing designs of roads and road intersections.

The intersection where this accident happened was on a straight section of road which then curved to the right where the intersecting road went straight ahead. This formed a y- intersection. It seems that the car travelling along the intersecting road must not have realised there was an intersection ahead, but a straight road that continued on. The van going the other way went around the bend in the road it was on, into the path of the oncoming car.

Apparently the council applied for an upgrade of the intersection in 2000, but Vicroads inspected the intersection and did not support the upgrade as there were no crashes reported there in the previous 5 years. In fact the local police filed a report on the danger some 4 decades previously.

Looking at the photos of this intersection in the paper, it is easy to see how dangerous it is, and how this accident happened.

Now this accident has happened, this intersection will now get the attention it should have got already. Its too late now.

To push the point further about Vicroads incompetence:

- the general Vicroads outdated philosophy used in highway and freeway intersection design compared to modern practices used in the UK. Here in Vic, no matter how major the intersecting freeway is, traffic has to merge into the left hand lanes to turn off, causing traffic flow problems. For example, turning from the Westgate freeway (travelling west) into Citylink freeway to the airport, that then goes over the Bolte bridge. (Not to mention the totally inadequate banking of the 270 deg turn here that has caused numerous trucks to overturn). Also this is evident when veering off to join the South Gippsland Freeway from Monash Freeway. In the UK, the motorways split, with adequate warnings and 'Get In' lanes and signs, which allows traffic to divert with much more safety and traffic freeflow.

-The Calder Highway schemozzle between Melton turnoff and Calder raceway, where there is a multitude of intersecting and access roads without any speed up or slow down lanes, and numerous steel posts concreted right next to the road, ready to catch any car that strays slightly and cause a major accident.

-Other examples that would make this post too long to read.

I share all your views. I visit the UK at least once a year. I feel safer in a Focus at 150 on the M1 than I do on the Calder in my BA XR6 at 100. Take the junction wher the M25 meets the M1. Two seperate mearges spread over about 1.5k. Compare it the that thing when you come of the Bolte onto the Westgate.

I must admit though, they are now starting to enforce speeds on UK moterways Aus style, and guess what? Traffic is bunched up and worse.

Thing is though, here we dont have the lane discipline they have over there. Overtake on the left is like snogging your sister. No trucks in the right lane. Large gaps between cars. Right lane at 80 to 90mph. Brilliant.

Steve

[T_Terror]

You do realise that Vicroad's solution to dangerous roads is to cause traffic congestion?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=59309

[Silver Ghia]

Yes, and I contributed to that thread. Another Vicroads stupid mentality.

I feel very vulnerable in congested traffic, with cars travelling next to me at approximately the same speed, also in the blind spots, wanting to jump into the not very big gap that I've left in front of me just in case someone decides to stop suddenly, or even push in making me brake. I absolutely hate this sort of driving, I feel so unsafe. I practice Russells left foot braking technique just in case.

You should see the traffic bunching long the Calder in the stretch I mentioned in the opening post, where the speed is reduced to 80 kmph. Cars cutting in front of others all the time. I've even seen a large ute change lanes right next to the car that I was following. The poor guy in front could only brake to avoid collision, no matter how much he used his horn. I've also seen the aftermath of a serious accident here also, after the introduction of all the "safety initiatives".

Now you've got me going again....

[xfalconz]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

The driver of one of these vehicles obviously made a mistake. But they paid for it with their life. If a road allows this sort of outcome because of a mistake of a driver, then the road needs to be very closely looked at.

I think all roads can lead to that outcome if a driver makes a mistake even good ones.
Drivers need to be aware of what is going on and drive accordingly. It is easy to blame the roads themselves but Australia is so big with way to many roads to keep 100% by the authorities.
Every time we venture out in a car we place ourselves at risk, so all the more reason for extra care to be taken but people are always gonna die as a result of driving thru silly mistakes, lack of judgement or just bad luck.
As humans we always look for others to blame.
Having said that im sure the percentage of revenue raised from petrol tax, rego etc by authorities is a lot larger than they spend on upkeep on roads.
They think thier stupid speed cameras, changing speed limits and occassional media campaigns make the roads safer and absolve them of any responsibility when people do die.

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Although I do agree that Vicroads generally have no idea, I don’t agree with them being responsible for this tragic accident near Donald. Regardless of the road design there were two clearly marked “Give Way” signs that one of the drivers missed for whatever reason, we’ll never know.

DRIVER ERROR caused this accident.

The understanding that I have is that there has never been a serious accident and there has never been a fatality at this intersection. There are quite a few intersections like this around this part of the state. There is one on the north side of Charlton on the Calder highway that has been upgraded to a T intersection, however, this is the main highway. There’s an almost identical intersection to this near Towaninny at the Quambatook turn off.

These intersections require a driver’s full attention and are not very forgiving to those who aren’t familiar and don’t concentrate. Drivers need to take a little more responsibility for their actions, however, the Calder Freeway at Keilor is a disaster and all of the side roads should be closed before more people get killed.

My 2 cents

I agree 100%. Although this was a tragedy, calls that the intersection should have been fixed should be tempered by the fact that there are other more dangerous intersections & upgrades across the state that take higher priority. Unfortunately the govt does not spend enough money to fix everything.

There are heaps of intersections like this across the state, although I can think of one off the top of my head that has been fixed. They blocked off the road joining at the end of the curve, and instead turned it to join the outside of the curve at a T intersection. I'm not sure whether that was prompted by accidents or not.

Something that hasn't been mentioned, is that either driver could have prevented the collision. Without wanting to criticise the departed, if you were the car heading north on the main highway and the car heading south towards you did not look to be slowing down to give way, you would want to slow or take evasive action yourself.

[Keepleft]

Silver Ghia wrote:
To push the point further about Vicroads incompetence:

- the general Vicroads outdated philosophy used in highway and freeway intersection design compared to modern practices used in the UK. Here in Vic, no matter how major the intersecting freeway is, traffic has to merge into the left hand lanes to turn off, causing traffic flow problems. For example, turning from the Westgate freeway (travelling west) into Citylink freeway to the airport, that then goes over the Bolte bridge. (Not to mention the totally inadequate banking of the 270 deg turn here that has caused numerous trucks to overturn). Also this is evident when veering off to join the South Gippsland Freeway from Monash Freeway. In the UK, the motorways split, with adequate warnings and 'Get In' lanes and signs, which allows traffic to divert with much more safety and traffic freeflow.

-The Calder Highway schemozzle between Melton turnoff and Calder raceway, where there is a multitude of intersecting and access roads without any speed up or slow down lanes, and numerous steel posts concreted right next to the road, ready to catch any car that strays slightly and cause a major accident.

Just to clarify a bit-
In relation 'freeway/motorway', by world standards, these have 'interchanges' not 'intersections', such as your VICROADS designated "Hume freeway" which has a combination of both grade seperated interchanges but also has some 21 'intersections' between NSW and Nth Melbourne. That road is far from being freeway or motorway class design by my foreign standards.

Intersections of any desgn are inherently more dangerous than interchanges.

The UK follows in mirror-reverse continental EU design in relation to its motorway interchanges, whilst a second-motorway will generally depart off to the left of a 'through' motorway (not an interchange) and are signposted as you say 'get in XX lane etc', the EXITS and ENTRIES on these will, on major routes, be ONLY off and into the left lane.

Median EXIT and ENTRIES (on-ramps) are generally prohibited for construction in GB so as not to clash with the keep left rule. The same thing applies in Germany and indeed Australia, with the exception of some new arterials being built in Sydney such as the Gore Hill tollroad, to leave a part of this length, one must sit in the right hand lane to both ENTER and LEAVE.

Such road design will NOT be designated 'freeway' or 'motorway' and those designs have serious inherent dangers as we have seen from Sydney's M5 East. I expect btw the speed limit to be 60km/h, and will be surprised if it is given 80km/h.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

To be honest I haven't been watching the story in depth about the accident but from my understanding is that the car ran the giveway/failed to giveway, and I believe the intersection was signposted as a giveway.

Here’s a pic from the Herald Sun showing the stop signs at the intersection.

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Something that hasn't been mentioned, is that either driver could have prevented the collision. Without wanting to criticise the departed, if you were the car heading north on the main highway and the car heading south towards you did not look to be slowing down to give way, you would want to slow or take evasive action yourself.

That’s a very good point. I don’t trust the ability of any car driver and if I thought that someone didn’t look like they were slowing down the last thing I would do is prove a point by proceeding just because I have right of way.

[MITCHAY]

Hmm yeah you can see those signs quite clearly. What I find weird though is why when the road is straight where that Falcon is heading why is the give way there. You're not changing direction at all. Surely it would be better to switch the give way the other way?