Aussies dead in Shot down plane crash over Ukraine.

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by brismike

Well I'm in the UK at the moment and there is absolutely no mention of Abbott taking Putin to task at all on the news here. The Pom news is full of David Cameron (UK PM) and his tough talk to Putin.

As far as the rest of the world is concerned Australia does not exist. After travelling around the USA and Europe and now the UK this is very plain to see.

We are a speck that no-one really cares about.

Seems to be pretty widely reported in the UK.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...irline-tragedy
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-investigation
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-to-crash-site

But I get your point about media reporting being very localised.

Regarding "a speck that no one care about", several wars might indicate otherwise.

Originally Posted by metalmania

Really ,i think you need to wake up.
You should be well aware of this pic in our papers and all the stupid headlines.Watch video and learn about what really happened in this incident.

http://rt.com/news/174332-ukraine-pl...oto-perverted/

Only an idiot would have taken this picture at face value, it was never going to be a separatist "holding up a trophy", yes the media is generally only after readers and will almost say whatever needs to be said to get a headline/sale.
What I do believe though is, these same guys have stopped investigators securing the deceased in a timely manner and conduction an accurate investigation of the site. Further, I believe the reports and photos of luggage rifled through, iPads, watches, rings etc having been stolen from the deceased either by locals or the separatists themselves.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by BluFGXR6

Yet you and others like you forget that the freedoms and basic human rights you enjoy were afforded to you by the spilling of blood in this country and on foreign soils by those who had the guts to defend this country during WW2. If not for them you'd be cheap labor under a Japanese government.
People choose to defend this country today because they know cowards and internet keyboard warriors can't be trusted should the worst happen. No wonder I think my 16 years in Defence force was worthless......

How long ago was WWII? 1939-1945? If I remember correctly it was the USA who nuked Japan twice and saved our asses when the UK gave up on us.

I owe my existance to the Americans who liberated the POW camp my Grandfather was in, in Germany cause my ancestors didn't come to this country in chains.

Defend this country today? The only people who did the defending were those who fought in WWII.

My cousin did a stint in Afghanistan, that isn't defending OUR country.

EDIT: If any of you want to dispute this further take it to PM with me so we don't crap up the thread too quickly.

[GasoLane]

Can we try to keep on topic please

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by metalmania

Really ,i think you need to wake up.
You should be well aware of this pic in our papers and all the stupid headlines.Watch video and learn about what really happened in this incident.

http://rt.com/news/174332-ukraine-pl...oto-perverted/

Its hard to believe the article on the daily sheeple when the adds around it promote extreme survivalist doctrine, predicts marshal law, financial collapse rack and ruin and the president kicking a door down post press conference. The author attacks journalists who don't back up statement with fact yet in doing so does exactly the same thing and then continues throughout the article to spout opinion disguised as fact alluding to references but fails to quote, or state sources.

You might be right, he might be right but our democracies don't work like that. they are not a didactic classroom where one person hold the truth and no proof is necessary. The majority rules, in action as in belief and these small opinion blogs don't have the credibility necessary to transform the majority. Especially when they argue they are the only ones with a particular truth, by eroding the honesty of the mass media, for example they undermine their own potential to influence.
While he puts good argument forward he does not support it with fact, credible, quantifiable evidence is lacking and as such I cannot hold it with much regard. In this case his argument becomes a good story, until it is supported by fact that's all it can be considered
Lets take for example this passage, my questions in red that need answering to make a case rather than opinion.
There is considerable circumstantial evidence in support of this second explanation. There is the youtube video which purports to be a conversation between a Russian general and separatists who are discussing having mistakenly brought down a civilian airliner. According to reports, expert examination of the code in the video reveal that it was made the day before the airliner was hit. - See more at: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/what-....Cy5X3SHP.dpuf

There is considerable circumstantial evidence in support of this second explanation. There is the youtube video which purports to be a conversation between a Russian general and separatists who are discussing having mistakenly brought down a civilian airliner. According to reports, expert examination of the code in the video reveal that it was made the day before the airliner was hit. - See more at: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/what-....Cy5X3SHP.dpuf
There is considerable (define considerable)circumstantial evidence (circumstatniat evidence is opinion) in support of this second explanation. (such as)There is the youtube video (credible reference) which purports (how does it make this connection) to be a conversation between a Russian general and separatists who are discussing having mistakenly brought down a civilian airliner ( please provide reference to video). According to reports,(whose reports) expert (which experts) examination of the code in the video reveal that it was made the day before the airliner was hit. (without proof of tampering and peer reviewed evidence at that this is not fact)



I take anything I read with the same skepticism (except anything on AFF), better journalists and authors already provide the fact to support the 'story'


JP

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

All talk no action, like the NUW all unions.

Fixed and quoted for truth.

Let's not bypass the fact that this is truly a tragedy being hampered by a bunch of ********* not letting people do proper investigation.

Play the my dick is bigger than yours game elsewhere.

[Dash_XR]

Mods did say no more graphic stuff, and what happen to the vice guys that were covering the Crimea conflict. Updates were every day then they just stopped, thought they may of been abducted?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

Mods did say no more graphic stuff, and what happen to the vice guys that were covering the Crimea conflict. Updates were every day then they just stopped, thought they may of been abducted?

Not sure but the reporter in that video was the guy covering Crimea area as well.

They interview a few local Ukrainians and get their opinions

[Dash_XR]

Ah ok must of just changed the title or something, they came close a few times that's why I thought they might of got caught.

[BradEL]

Its good news to hear that the bodies have been released from being held by rebels, and that they have also handed over the black boxs from the aircraft

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by BradEL

Its good news to hear that the bodies have been released from being held by rebels, and that they have also handed over the black boxs from the aircraft

We might be making some progress now, which is good to hear.

[BradEL]

Yes, now that they are able to see remains of bodies, they can look for crucial evidence of shrapnel in bodies caused by missile. I know it sounds gruesome but I hope evidence can be found as to why this tragedy occurred, not only for the sake of the families of those lost, but also in the hope of bringing the bastards who did it to justice.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Comrade, why don't you go live there, if the reds & Putin are the bees knees?

Reds ? this is 2014

I am no commo that's for sure but I do know history and how wars can start over bugger all you know.

I would say that the USA should pull it's head in, and that's got nothing to do with hatred of the USA at all, but some fools in power that went all about this like morons from the start and I do say that they are responsible for escalating things way beyond what was needed to bring about a peaceful outcome.
They added and abetted the whole thing so it got out of hand and the killing started this did not need to happen at all. this is madness !

Russia is not going to give up it's base there, come hell or high water.

Fact is the Ukraine hate the USA more then they do Russia and they always have. it would of been best to leave it up to them to sort it all out but now this has turned out for the worst and will take years to get back to normal.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Cashie

Are you joking? So we should just stand back while a thug (Putin) militarily takes over another country? Hes not even doing it up front, he's hiding behind hired thugs (separatists)..
The US isn't leading anything at the moment, if anything Australia is and pushing the UN to come to the party.

I can't believe I replied to the troll..

Separatists are just that.

Putin has a hard job to do and it would be best to leave it all up to him to sort it all out and Australia should just shut it's big stupid mouth.

The days of ranting and raving all sorts of insults have to go between nations.

Let Putin take control then other nations can have a say in a responsible manner, as what can Putin do wrong or make it any worse than it is and give it a few more years and the Ukraine will much better off.

USA was the main instigator at the start of it all.

As for the idiot moronic fools that think that not talking and all with Putin that's a sad thing to do and it points to there mental capacity being worth bugger all.

Fighting and rants get no one anywhere and they never have all they do is cause trouble.
What people have to do is look at the long term goal not the short.

[Franco Cozzo]

Makes me wonder if Ukraine regrets handing back its massive nuclear weapons stockpile it was left with after the USSR collapsed?

When the USSR collapsed they had the third largest nuclear weapons stash in the world, but they handed it back to the Russians and signed the NPT.

Ukraine inherited a sizeable nuclear weapons arsenal from the former Soviet Union in the form of 130 SS-19 and 46 SS-24 intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) with 1,240 warheads, and 44 Tupolev-95 and Tupolev-160 strategic bombers (with 1,081 nuclear cruise missiles).[1] Kiev also possessed an unspecified number of tactical nuclear warheads. However, Ukraine acceded to START I in 1992 and joined the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state in 1994, choosing to give up the nuclear weapons it had inherited from the Soviet Union. By June 1996, Ukraine had completed the transfer of approximately 1,900 strategic nuclear weapons to Russia (in return for nuclear reactor fuel), and deactivated all 176 ICBM silos located on its territory.

http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/ukraine/

[Bobman]

Ukraine still has its infamous Chernobyl plant, full of nuclear product!

Seriously, both sides are suspect, but you'd have to be a potato to believe that Russians had nothing to do with MH17. Noticed the conspiracy/propaganda link posted above from RT (dubious source) which goes on to state that the rebels are innocent.

This is a better read: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/mh17-n...721-zvd2e.html

Power, greed, money, oil. Always intertwined in big world events.

[Charliewool]

You already got WW3 underway Damo...
But, no need to worry cos we have Big Tony staring the Ruskies down

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Makes me wonder if Ukraine regrets handing back its massive nuclear weapons stockpile it was left with after the USSR collapsed?

When the USSR collapsed they had the third largest nuclear weapons stash in the world, but they handed it back to the Russians and signed the NPT.



http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/ukraine/

Wasn't a condition of them forfeiting their nukes the promise of military aid from NATO and the west if their sovereignty was ever threatened?

[BradEL]

So evidence is beginning to emerge showing this was a missile attack http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/c...nes-flight-17/

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Wasn't a condition of them forfeiting their nukes the promise of military aid from NATO and the west if their sovereignty was ever threatened?

Yep, I believe the USA was involved in one of those claims too.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Wasn't a condition of them forfeiting their nukes the promise of military aid from NATO and the west if their sovereignty was ever threatened?

Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

Ukraine held elections in 2010 and decided that the country best be non-aligned, in hindsight a bummer of a decision.

Given what's happened, I predict a bunch of former USSR fiefdoms will be applying for NATO membership (if they haven't already).

[BHDOGS]

The reason this is all happening is because of russias meddling in urkaine affairs not american ffs they poised a presidential candidate rigged elections then the russian backed puppet backed out of the European union deal for closer ties with russia which is when the people rebelled against the presidents corrupt rule ffs.

[cheap]

To summarise the Russian position on everything:

Russia = good
ROTW = bad

Putin = Very good
Abbott = bad

Appeasing Russia = good
Protecting your country against Russia = bad

Pravda = truth
Free press = lies

Rebuild Warsaw pact = good
NATO = bad

[BHDOGS]

After all this time we agree on something cheap lmao

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

You already got WW3 underway Damo...
But, no need to worry cos we have Big Tony staring the Ruskies down

Get whats left of our manufacturing facilities working overdrive before we lose them

[Dash_XR]

Both USA and Russia are involved in a proxy war in Ukraine, just like Korea, Vietnam etc. etc. Pretty much every conflict post WW2. Both are as bad as each other being either directly involved or by supplying arms to their enemy's opponent just for the sake of doing so.

Why not throw both presidents in a cage and let them sort it out like men for a change?

Civilian casualties mount, years pass and nothing changes.

[brismike]

Originally Posted by metalmania

Really ,i think you need to wake up.
You should be well aware of this pic in our papers and all the stupid headlines.Watch video and learn about what really happened in this incident.

Really? .. I think you need to wake up mate. I'm fully aware of what has happened. It is all over the news here too and has been for days. Difference is here it is big bad David Cameron (UK PM) who has been doing all the tough talk.

My point was there has been no mention in the normal daily news (BBC/ITV)here (UK) of Tony Abbott leading the charge in the Western world against the big bad Vladimir Putin.

Do you really think that Russia gives a stuff what Abbot says? The rest of the world doesn't seem to.

BTW I didn't look at the vid you posted

[BHDOGS]

Putin cares what we think because were on the security council at the moment and have a guiding hand in any motions. As a country does he care no as an ally of all the major European powers he sure does.

[Dash_XR]

Russia is the only major European power.

Pretty sure by arsenal, land mass, army and commodities.

[brismike]

Originally Posted by Cashie

Seems to be pretty widely reported in the UK.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...irline-tragedy
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-investigation
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-to-crash-site

But I get your point about media reporting being very localised.

Regarding "a speck that no one care about", several wars might indicate otherwise.

No-one reads the "Guardian" here. I haven't seen it on the normal news-stands. Most news here is disseminated on ITV & BBC. Not one single mention of Australia or Abbott on there when I was watching the news.

Shortly after the incident the news here was all about the 8 Britains who were onboard the plane. They did mention there were 127 Dutch people but no mention of the 30 or so Australians who were killed. (Later on they did list all nationalities who were involved)

Anyway It is a tragedy and I feel very much for all the families who have lost loved ones. I am catching a plane back to Australia in a few weeks and my wife is very nervous about flying at the best of times. It will be good to get back to our safe country even if we are a small speck in the world. It is a very nice speck I think we can all agree.

[BHDOGS]

Germany Britain and france still rule the roost always have. You could of said russia is the only asian powerhouse but that isnt true anymore either. There influence is weaked on all fronts there gas is the only card russia has to play these days.