First Drive: Falcon Ecoboost

[TMC]

I'm actually quite excited by the Ecoboost range and the Ecoboost 4 Falcon. From an engineering point of view it's amazing. Being able to make multiple injections directly into the cylinder as it's firing is awesome technology and means that the whole ignition characteristics of the engine can be controlled, which in real terms means you can up the compression sky high for a turbo engine and even the boost can go up over a regular motor, which amounts to greater torque and power from a much smaller engine.

Now what I would like to see is Ford or even Orbital design a direct injection LPi injector (not sure if this has been done yet) and system. With LPG having an octane number above 100, the power advantages are even greater, with higher compression and boost being theoretically possible. Imagine a 220kW Ecoboost Falcon 4 with 400Nm of torque from 1500-4800 rpm and getting 8L/100km on LPG!!!!!!!!!! That would be a quantum leap in car design.

[XR_Strider_GuY]

Originally Posted by prydey

i think people need to think much broader than our own backyard or simply ford or gm.

small capacity direct injection turbo's is the way forward for the petrol engine. all manufacturers are doing it. its not like ford are starting the trend. they are simply joining it.

I agree with the going trend. Lets see if the public will buy into it.

My thinking is its still an internal combustion engine. Apply the same direct injection technology to a V8 (with no turbo) and it will return the balance. More power, less stress and good fuel economy. Take the Polo as a case in point, it has a clever engine but it still needs a 7 speed gearbox to over come a narrow power band. I'm not one of those people who has my head in the sand but we have to look at it objectively. A bigger engine without turbo and a complex gearbox will surely be cheaper to manufacture.

So long as weight increases in cars due to demands of luxury, safety legislations and trends (Checkout the parade of high riding cars) big engines will still be in service.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

i think people need to think much broader than our own backyard or simply ford or gm.

small capacity direct injection turbo's is the way forward for the petrol engine. all manufacturers are doing it. its not like ford are starting the trend. they are simply joining it.

Not true, a lot of manufacturers are not joining the DI turbo band wagon, apart form VW Group, Ford and Volvo, not too many others.
A lot of the European manufacturers are infact gearing up for next gen diesel with ultra low NOX requirements
while a lot of Asian manufacturers are pressing on with hybrids and electric vehicles instead of further refining ICEs.

The strength of Ecoboost is not just the DI and Turbo part, it's really all about the very sophisticated software
' that allows remarkable things to happen that aren't normally possible with a conventional Bosch DI Turbo set up.

The problem in the US is that Ford is trying to sell 2.0 Ecoboost into vehicles that are much heavier than
the Mondeo and Falcon, more like Territory weighted vehicles, I think that's a mistake and it could hurt them..

[turboxf]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

...and old Toyota Celicas...

Interesting comment about the engine being deliberately kept down in torque so it doesn't outshine the I6T...so what if it did? Go for the gusto, Ford...make it as powerful and economical as the technology will allow, and if it turns out to be a better engine than the old six, then grow a pair, drop the six, and go to the market with a massive advantage by loudly saying your engine is better than a six, uses less fuel, and costs less in registration and insurance costs than one with a bigger engine. Leave the V8's for the tiny part of the specialist market that buys them nowadays (I think you will find that the majority of people just like the idea of a V8 still being made anyway, but will never actually buy one themselves), and take the big step with the mass market large car. Technology has caught up to the point where a four cylinder large car is perfectly feasible, and nothing to be embarassed about, unlike the early days of the Commodore Four.

[B]or you could buy one of these/B] to make it sound like a SHELBY 500 GT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYP-Q...eature=related

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Not true, a lot of manufacturers are not joining the DI turbo band wagon, apart form VW Group, Ford and Volvo, not too many others.

BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, and Kia already have joined this bandwagon, while GM and Fiat/Chrysler are about to. Mercedes and BMW were two of the biggest manufacturers previously against turbocharging (times have obviously changed), so I would like to know who you think is not going to do it now.

Originally Posted by jpd80

A lot of the European manufacturers are infact gearing up for next gen diesel with ultra low NOX requirements

They are doing GTDI and diesel.

Originally Posted by jpd80

Ford is trying to sell 2.0 Ecoboost into vehicles that are much heavier than
the Mondeo and Falcon, more like Territory weighted vehicles, I think that's a mistake and it could hurt them

The Explorer is selling very well, and the EcoBoost is the most popular engine in the F-150. The success will likely carry over to the smaller EB in the Explorer.

[turboxf]

Originally Posted by blueoval

Had this have been FWD, the neigh sayers here would be screaming for heads to roll. The fact that its RWD is the biggest plus for a large majority of members here and I believe that alone is the saving grace for a lot of people with phobias of FWD cars.

YEP i remmeber when the demise of the 6 was floated & the new FOCUS was going to be built in GEELONG that, & after a few months that was shelved & the journos said wait a min. we hear that FORD aus wan't a FWD falcon with a ecoBoost 4 pot engine , well this forum went nuts, now because it is still a very clever RWD everybody is happy, i have an engineer fiend in america & he said 4 years ago this ecoBoost( did have another name first ) engine in all FORD vehicles will be what will keep fords going in the FUTURE , he loves the I6 & was sad if it did go to a FWD Lincoln ( FALCON ) in 2013.
Now he will be rapped that the FALCON is still RWD with the 2L ecoBoost

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Not true, a lot of manufacturers are not joining the DI turbo band wagon, apart form VW Group, Ford and Volvo, not too many others.
A lot of the European manufacturers are infact gearing up for next gen diesel with ultra low NOX requirements
while a lot of Asian manufacturers are pressing on with hybrids and electric vehicles instead of further refining ICEs.

The strength of Ecoboost is not just the DI and Turbo part, it's really all about the very sophisticated software
' that allows remarkable things to happen that aren't normally possible with a conventional Bosch DI Turbo set up.

The problem in the US is that Ford is trying to sell 2.0 Ecoboost into vehicles that are much heavier than
the Mondeo and Falcon, more like Territory weighted vehicles, I think that's a mistake and it could hurt them..

Mazda have had direct injection and turbo charging for quite a few years too. My MPS 6 from 2005 has both and the same motor has been used in the 3 MPS for as many years.

More recently you have the SkyActiv-G for Petrol and Skyativ-D for diesel have been released with the same technologies, but tuned for economy, although performance is still good - especially in the diesel.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by chevypower

BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, and Kia already have joined this bandwagon, while GM and Fiat/Chrysler are about to. Mercedes and BMW were two of the biggest manufacturers previously against turbocharging (times have obviously changed), so I would like to know who you think is not going to do it now.
this I believe is where Ford has an edge with their system, particularly with the 2.7 V6 Nano engine,
that engine has huge potential across the whole range...

They are doing GTDI and diesel.

The Explorer is selling very well, and the EcoBoost is the most popular engine in the F-150. The success will likely carry over to the smaller EB in the Explorer.

Yes Explorer v6 is selling well
Yes F150 Ecoboost V6 is selling well

What I'm saying is the initial uptake on 2.0 EB Explorer ( my info direct from dealers in the US) is very slow.
The point is that the V6 Explorer has something like 20% improvement over the last BOF Explorer,
I'm thinking most buyers are not prepared to give up the beautiful ease of performance afforded
by the 3.5 V6 just to get a little more highway economy. Dealers are saying EB 20 Explorer is a hard sell.

A good analogy for Australians would be Ford turning around and putting the EB 20 into Territory.
Sure you might get 8.5 l/100 km but not being able to tow much and having to drive it gently
to achieve those numbers compared to the ease of a V6 diesel would surely disappoint buyers...

And as for the rest of your post, Ford remains an across the board delivery of GDTI where as a lot
of the others you quote are using GDTI as a showcase in one or two models - that's the difference.
The next 12 months will see Ecoboost roll out on just about every main stream Ford vehicle.

The Ford Ecoboost system, particularly the Gen 2 and Gen 3 stuff is way ahead of stuff Bosh is trying to sell to VW and MB....

[Elks]

With similar power & torque to a 4.0 EL Falcon the issue here will be more of perception than reality. Car advice is reporting 0~100 times of 7.2 sec. Thats very good for an eco car.

We have a C250 CGI that's a 1.8 turbo petrol with 147kw and a bit over 300nm in a 1550kg car. Loaded with a bootfull of stuff and 5 adults and has no issue cruising past other normal uphill.

The secret is boost management and it seems FoMoCo is on top of it. Let the good times roll.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Elks

With similar power & torque to a 4.0 EL Falcon the issue here will be more of perception than reality. Car advice is reporting 0~100 times of 7.2 sec. Thats very good for an eco car.

We have a C250 CGI that's a 1.8 turbo petrol with 147kw and a bit over 300nm in a 1550kg car. Loaded with a bootfull of stuff and 5 adults and has no issue cruising past other normal uphill.

The secret is boost management and it seems FoMoCo is on top of it. Let the good times roll.

Excellent point, the whole reason for Ecoboost 2.0 is to establish new buyers for the Falcon.
If fuel climbs significantly in the next four years, Ford has the perfect remedy for buyers.

[nstg8a]

i think its needs its own identity to truly succeed, the falcon 'brand' unfortunately carries some level of stigma, whether rightly or wrongly.

whether ford dropping the falcon badging from the fg's is a sign ford itself knows this or not, i think the ecoboost deserves its own identity.

many wont buy a falcon because of past 'perceptions', no amount of tech will change that.

much like camry/aurion, it could work for ford.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

i think its needs its own identity to truly succeed, the falcon 'brand' unfortunately carries some level of stigma, whether rightly or wrongly.

whether ford dropping the falcon badging from the fg's is a sign ford itself knows this or not, i think the ecoboost deserves its own identity.

many wont buy a falcon because of past 'perceptions', no amount of tech will change that.

much like camry/aurion, it could work for ford.

Never say never,
no one wanted petrol territory any more then BAM, the diesel arrives and up goes sales and asking price...

[turboxf]

Originally Posted by TMC

Found this on Youtube. Basically a Ford USA advert for the 3.5L V6 Ecoboost in the F150. These Ecoboost motors are amazing. I think the 3.5L V6 would be overkill for the likes of the Territory, but I'd still love to drive a 3.5L V6 Ecoboost Falcon or Territory. Those things would hammer. They'd also pull a house down with ease.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw1zdFZwlLU

I liked the vid after the first , you carn't fake a real race that baja truck is speedy & not so thirsty

Now if thre tests against the other trucks is real , well FORD have got a winner

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by turboxf

YEP i remmeber when the demise of the 6 was floated & the new FOCUS was going to be built in GEELONG that, & after a few months that was shelved & the journos said wait a min. we hear that FORD aus wan't a FWD falcon with a ecoBoost 4 pot engine , well this forum went nuts, now because it is still a very clever RWD everybody is happy, i have an engineer fiend in america & he said 4 years ago this ecoBoost( did have another name first ) engine in all FORD vehicles will be what will keep fords going in the FUTURE , he loves the I6 & was sad if it did go to a FWD Lincoln ( FALCON ) in 2013.
Now he will be rapped that the FALCON is still RWD with the 2L ecoBoost

It was called Twinforce.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Go back and read what I said, I didn't say it had done all the same durability tests as the Ecoboost V6, just SOME of them. PD do exactly the same dyno tests as what all Ford global do, every engine they make has to pass all the same durability tests as the others, otherwise it doesn't go on sale until it passes. I've seen the dyno cells and watched some of the tests personally.

They used braked trailers to simulate heavy loads, but of course they don't use as much weight as an F series does, its just plain idiotic to say they do, the Falcon is not designed to handle those sort of loads. Its just about as idiotic to think Ford would race an I6 in Baja as well. They are 2 different vehicles designed for 2 different purposes. Do you even think before you post.

i got exactly what u were saying. Some %@$#s here cant differenciate reality from advertising. I mean comon..its a 3 sec search to find the extensive torture testing done yo the aussie engine.

Anyway i think people r way too worried about peoples percieved perceptions of falcons having a bad name. most of that is purely fuel economy from being a larger car anyway...which is a givn. Bettering a product that still has alot of respect..which the falcon deffinately has..can and will change peoples minds instantly. look at hyundai for example...theyre a whole company full off examples of this haha

[smoo]

Just read a review of the latest 3 series, 2.0 di turbo, 180kw, 350nm, 6.1 0-100 and 6.3 l/100km. Weighs 1500 kg, similar stats to the Falcon (hopefully) just add 200 kilos. Proof there is a future with this approach for performance/economy mix, but the swedes have known that for decades (SAAB, Volvo).

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by smoo

there is a future with this approach for performance/economy mix, but the swedes have known that for decades (SAAB, Volvo).

Except that is old turbo technology with no low-end torque, plus plenty of turbo lag.

[olds]

How much higher will the ecoboost be priced above the I6

[smoo]

Originally Posted by chevypower

Except that is old turbo technology with no low-end torque, plus plenty of turbo lag.

It wasn't old technology back in the day and you'll find no turbo lag on the S40/S70/850/S80 low pressure turbo 2.0 and 2.4 engines all from the 1990s. 6 cylinder power with flat torque curves and the economy of a dull 4 cylinder. Win

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by smoo

It wasn't old technology back in the day and you'll find no turbo lag on the S40/S70/850/S80 low pressure turbo 2.0 and 2.4 engines all from the 1990s. 6 cylinder power with flat torque curves and the economy of a dull 4 cylinder. Win

my parents have a c70 convertible T5 they have had since new. It isn't that great of a car. Lacks as much low end torque today as it did back then. There's a reason turbos were not so popular back then. DI seems to have solved many problems. In addition to the lack of torque, the C70 has had more than its fair share of mechanical issues. The T5 is nothing like the current GTDI technology.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by olds

How much higher will the ecoboost be priced above the I6

Not much, I think their research has shown that a lot of people will ignore it if it's dearer than a 4.0 I-6.
These days, the market demands outstanding fuel economy from base engines, good luck asking a premium

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by TMC

Now what I would like to see is Ford or even Orbital design a direct injection LPi injector (not sure if this has been done yet) and system. With LPG having an octane number above 100, the power advantages are even greater, with higher compression and boost being theoretically possible. Imagine a 220kW Ecoboost Falcon 4 with 400Nm of torque from 1500-4800 rpm and getting 8L/100km on LPG!!!!!!!!!! That would be a quantum leap in car design.

The supplier of Orbital's Liquid Injection components, Vialle of the Netherlands, is already producing a Liquid Injection LPG system for engines with direct petrol injection called LPdi. It uses the existing petrol injectors that are installed in the engine's cylinder head to inject LPG directly into the combustion chambers. The great thing about this system is that there is only one set of injectors required and therefore the system can even more closely match factory specifications.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

The supplier of Orbital's Liquid Injection components, Vialle of the Netherlands, is already producing a Liquid Injection LPG system for engines with direct petrol injection called LPdi. It uses the existing petrol injectors that are installed in the engine's cylinder head to inject LPG directly into the combustion chambers. The great thing about this system is that there is only one set of injectors required and therefore the system can even more closely match factory specifications.

Well there you go. Bring it on.

Any idea what sort of power results they are getting with their system.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by turboxf

YEP i remmeber when the demise of the 6 was floated & the new FOCUS was going to be built in GEELONG that, & after a few months that was shelved & the journos said wait a min. we hear that FORD aus wan't a FWD falcon with a ecoBoost 4 pot engine , well this forum went nuts, now because it is still a very clever RWD everybody is happy, i have an engineer fiend in america & he said 4 years ago this ecoBoost( did have another name first ) engine in all FORD vehicles will be what will keep fords going in the FUTURE , he loves the I6 & was sad if it did go to a FWD Lincoln ( FALCON ) in 2013.
Now he will be rapped that the FALCON is still RWD with the 2L ecoBoost

For GODS sake there was NEVER going to be a 2013 FWD Falcon

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by turboxf
YEP i remmeber when the demise of the 6 was floated & the new FOCUS was going to be built in GEELONG that, & after a few months that was shelved & the journos said wait a min. we hear that FORD aus wan't a FWD falcon with a ecoBoost 4 pot engine , well this forum went nuts, now because it is still a very clever RWD everybody is happy,

Wow, that one really went through to the keeper with you didn't it.
Here's a clue, it was the FWD bit people were upset with, not the Ecoboost engine...

i have an engineer fiend in america & he said 4 years ago this ecoBoost( did have another name first )

TWIN FORCE

....engine in all FORD vehicles will be what will keep fords going in the FUTURE , he loves the I6 & was sad if it did go to a FWD Lincoln ( FALCON ) in 2013.

Yeah, Kuzak signed off on Ecoboost four years ago, even before Ford NA power train could validate the Euro claims of 20% improvement in economy, boy that created a shock wave when they couldn't guarantee it would because Kuzak and Mulally were both on record, so a lot of work was done by Ford USA to get the darned thing right for EPA tests..

Now he will be rapped that the FALCON is still RWD with the 2L ecoBoost

More than a few senior people across the water are curious to see the new Ecoboost Falcon,
I know Derrick Kuzak was personally involved and made a lot of things happen to assist FoA..

Thanks to T6 project, FoA are two for two:
1) Emissions modelling program proved Euro 4 upgrades to i-6 were cost effective

2) Two T6 Ranger RWD mules with Falcon weight were fitted with 2.0 Ecoboost engines
and used to convince chiefs that the Ecoboost engine would work well in Falcon.

[turboxf]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

For GODS sake there was NEVER going to be a 2013 FWD Falcon

It was mooted by the NA head honcho when he visited here , as he said the rwd falcon is a world class car, but we wan't a world car, he was hinting about the lincoln v6 ecoboost yes it is a FWD TO BE THE FALCON OF ASIA & THE LINCOLN OF THE AMERICAS, If we wanted the FALCON name to stay.

The big thing was we as ausssies were scared the falcon was going & so was the 16 ENGINE, we didn't mind the EB but we hated the idea that the FALCON was going to be a FWD car?????????????

[turboxf]

No the keeper missed the ball & i got a 4 he missed the stumping

after a few months that was shelved & the journos said wait a min. we hear that FORD aus wan't a FWD falcon

When that was said we went mad at the bowlers & hit them for sixes

The EB engine was not the bouncer every holden fan was thinking it would be, us FORD fans have eyed the new batsmen for a while now & he is coming along just fine , the stroke play he delivers is ............ like

The holden fans have been bowled out

[turboxf]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Wow, that one really went through to the keeper with you didn't it.
Here's a clue, it was the FWD bit people were upset with, not the Ecoboost engine...




TWIN FORCE


Yeah, Kuzak signed off on Ecoboost four years ago, even before Ford NA power train could validate the Euro claims of 20% improvement in economy, boy that created a shock wave when they couldn't guarantee it would because Kuzak and Mulally were both on record, so a lot of work was done by Ford USA to get the darned thing right for EPA tests..

More than a few senior people across the water are curious to see the new Ecoboost Falcon,
I know Derrick Kuzak was personally involved and made a lot of things happen to assist FoA..

Thanks to T6 project, FoA are two for two:
1) Emissions modelling program proved Euro 4 upgrades to i-6 were cost effective

2) Two T6 Ranger RWD mules with Falcon weight were fitted with 2.0 Ecoboost engines
and used to convince chiefs that the Ecoboost engine would work well in Falcon.

fantastic mate THIS FALCON WILL BE A WORLD CAR , for the MUSTANG maybe

I sent my engineer friend a link to the write up & he is very impressed with OZ engineers for what they achieved with the i6 & i6T & to do what they did to the RWD 4T EB FALCON without going the FWD way

[z80]

Personally I don't think this will save the Falcon.

Probably because the fuel consumption figures seem exaggerated.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by turboxf

It was mooted by the NA head honcho when he visited here , as he said the rwd falcon is a world class car, but we wan't a world car, he was hinting about the lincoln v6 ecoboost yes it is a FWD TO BE THE FALCON OF ASIA & THE LINCOLN OF THE AMERICAS, If we wanted the FALCON name to stay.

The big thing was we as ausssies were scared the falcon was going & so was the 16 ENGINE, we didn't mind the EB but we hated the idea that the FALCON was going to be a FWD car?????????????

He never said 2013! The only car that Kuzak has mentioned to the press that lines up with 2013 is the CD4 twins, next gen Fusion and Mondeo.

All the press bantering about a FWD Falcon has been linking it with next gen Taurus, which continually gets shut down by those who know anything by the way. I cant even recall Kuzak mentioning any future dates and Falcon in a single sentence. In any case, both Taurus and Falcon will go until around 2015 before their next complete updates.