Twilight for the traditional ICE automobile

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Toyota and other makes including VW are investing heavy in SS Batteries.

Toyota may appear late to the party with BEVs, but I suspect they've bet the farm on SS batteries (they hold over 1000 patents on the tech already). If they get them right, they could leapfrog every automaker in one fell swoop. They're already well established in hybrids, so the ICE phase-out makes going fully electric less urgent.

[Bossxr8]

I'm sure I heard on the news last night they are expecting the owners to upload a photo of the cluster to confirm the km. So many people will try to rort this if they don't introduce random checks, with big fines to back it up.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I'm sure I heard on the news last night they are expecting the owners to upload a photo of the cluster to confirm the km. So many people will try to rort this if they don't introduce random checks, with big fines to back it up.

What will happen if you live in Wodonga and do a certain amount of K's in another state? Different states with different taxation amounts. It will only work as a Federal tax like fuel excise.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by tweeked

What will happen if you live in Wodonga and do a certain amount of K's in another state? Different states with different taxation amounts. It will only work as a Federal tax like fuel excise.

The Vic government won't care. Just gimme, gimme, gimme.

[Sprintey]

Time to check the odometer and let Vicroads know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf954qnzP4s

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Ah ok... So Can I disconnect the speedo cable? Or better still, use the battery drill trick to wind back odometer?... (maybe a rebate possible?)
I realise, I’m being silly, but seriously HOW are govco going to know your kms?

Yearly inspection - same way NSW does some yearly RWC thing.

I'm ****ed, might be walking to work when my fleet of ****boxes don't make it through the yearly roady

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by IanC

In Singapore they have a government meter on the dashboard. I expect it will use GPS to calculate kilometrage. Knowing Singapore the penalties will be draconian if you tamper with it.

I would hope it’s turns off while the car is off. If you happen to need a tow the gps will show you moving. Screw paying the government for not driving.

[Sprintey]

Someone has begun to import the most desirable EV (to me)

https://www.iondna.com.au/pages/honda-e-australia

(Cannot vouch one way or other for the business - just that someone is apparently doing it)

[CyberWasp]

Why isn't Honda selling them here?

[Bossxr8]

https://fordauthority.com/2021/04/74...e-ice-powered/

74% of US consumers want their next vehicle to be ICE powered.

This will be heartbreaking for the green warriors trying to force EV's onto people who largely don't want them.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

https://fordauthority.com/2021/04/74...e-ice-powered/

74% of US consumers want their next vehicle to be ICE powered.

This will be heartbreaking for the green warriors trying to force EV's onto people who largely don't want them.

A few caveats to that survey, ask many here in Australia and I bet they same the same if not more so. Looking further into it the reasons can be lack of EV infrastructure, price of EVs right now and the sheer lack of available cars in the market but most of all a clear lack of education for the general userbase. Think of those people who travel no more than 50km in a day scared of range anxiety from a 500km range EV.


I am not keen on getting an BEV right now, Australia is around 5 - 10 years behind the 8 ball in terms of infrastructure, legislation and taxes. However my next family car would definitely be a hybrid of some sort, preferably a PHEV. I'd be keen to look at the next generation Mustang if they did a hybrid. Best of both worlds.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Wretched

A few caveats to that survey, ask many here in Australia and I bet they same the same if not more so. Looking further into it the reasons can be lack of EV infrastructure, price of EVs right now and the sheer lack of available cars in the market but most of all a clear lack of education for the general userbase. Think of those people who travel no more than 50km in a day scared of range anxiety from a 500km range EV.


I am not keen on getting an BEV right now, Australia is around 5 - 10 years behind the 8 ball in terms of infrastructure, legislation and taxes. However my next family car would definitely be a hybrid of some sort, preferably a PHEV. I'd be keen to look at the next generation Mustang if they did a hybrid. Best of both worlds.

Many people simply don't want them. For a million different reasons. And of course that might change for them over time. But for the here and now, most people want to stick with what they know.

If you did this survey here the results would probably be 90%+.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Many people simply don't want them. For a million different reasons. And of course that might change for them over time. But for the here and now, most people want to stick with what they know.

If you did this survey here the results would probably be 90%+.

I agree there will be a number of people that will always prefer the petrol engine. As a weekend car, yes I would too.

However I must disagree that it would be the primary reason for BEVs not selling here. As it has been clearly stated here (every month in the VFACTS threads), most people don't care about cars, they see them as appliances. How many people know what wheels drive their car? How many cylinders?

I'd be more confident the reasons are:

• lack of infrastructure investment from governments
• Due to the above, car makers have limited the range of cars for Australia
• Range Anxiety which could be alleviated by infrastructure investment (how many petrol stations were around from the beginning?)
• User education, with any new product, you have to educate the buyers, get rid of the myths and explain to them the truths. The issue in this social media age people seem to believe conspiracy theories and untruths, how else do you explain the increase in flat earth morons?
• Extra taxes - I don't want a BEV, would rather have a PHEV but jeez I am not keen on paying fuel and and extra 2c/km. Australia really needs to pull their head in.

Yes there will be scenarios where BEVs are not the right idea but for the majority of Australia's population which resides in a city they will be more than fine and I don't think we'll have a choice.

[kmav23]

It's the same situation if you ask people do they want or need a smartphones computers and internet before they have it.

Once people have EVs as they come down in price, they wont want Ice cars.

There is now proposals in Australia to ban ICE cars like other countries by 2030.

If you ask people what they want we still be on horses.

We are in the decade of phasing out and transitoning from ICE cars to EVs.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by kmav23

It's the same situation if you ask people do they want or need a smartphones computers and internet before they have it.

Once people have EVs as they come down in price, they wont want Ice cars.

There is now proposals in Australia to ban ICE cars like other countries by 2030.

If you ask people what they want we still be on horses.

We are in the decade of phasing out and transitoning from ICE cars to EVs.

Y'know, you still haven't told everyone what you drive.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

https://fordauthority.com/2021/04/74...e-ice-powered/

74% of US consumers want their next vehicle to be ICE powered.

This will be heartbreaking for the green warriors trying to force EV's onto people who largely don't want them.

I am surprised how high the number is of consumers who want an EV. Considering that car plus SUV sales is in the order of 20 million units, that is potential market around 5 million cars+suv per annum. In turn, that figure is way above current EV production capacity.

Another point is that consumer preferences can change over time. When I installed my first solar PV system back in 2010, I was one of the early installers with a small 1.5kW system. Roll forward eight years, and when I put my second PV system in it was a 6.6kW unit and rather typical.

Car manufacturers could not care a rats whether the propulsion is ICE or battery. All they care about is making money. If customers are prepared to pay a premium and manufacturers can make a profit, they will churn out millions of EV (colour pink with purple polka dots if necessary)

The invisible hand of Adam Smith ...

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by whynot

I am surprised how high the number is of consumers who want an EV. Considering that car plus SUV sales is in the order of 20 million units, that is potential market around 5 million cars+suv per annum. In turn, that figure is way above current EV production capacity.

Another point is that consumer preferences can change over time. When I installed my first solar PV system back in 2010, I was one of the early installers with a small 1.5kW system. Roll forward eight years, and when I put my second PV system in it was a 6.6kW unit and rather typical.

Car manufacturers could not care a rats whether the propulsion is ICE or battery. All they care about is making money. If customers are prepared to pay a premium and manufacturers can make a profit, they will churn out millions of EV (colour pink with purple polka dots if necessary)

The invisible hand of Adam Smith ...

Did you pay for your own PV system or was it Govco funded ? curious to know.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Did you pay for your own PV system or was it Govco funded ? curious to know.

You already know the answer, so why ask?

All PV systems sold in Australia have a government rebate and sellable green energy certificates. The first system also had the 44c/kWh feed in tariff (solar bonus scheme that ended in 2012). The second system just gets market rates 6c/kWh

From memory, the first system cost me $2500 out of pocket, and it paid for itself before it was removed in 2018. The second system cost me $7500 out of pocket, and it will pay for itself by next year (assuming the sun keeps shining).

But the point was, people follow the money, not the technology. Once EV are cheaper that ICE, then sales will move across.

Do I believe EV are the way of the future? Yes.

Do I believe that the government should subsidise EV? No, definitely not. Let the market decide as competition will force EV manufacturers to lower manufacturing costs.

(Disclosure, I am a sparkie by trade, so I am biased towards EV.)

Edit: fixed typo

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by whynot

You already know the answer, so why ask?

All PV systems sold in Australia have a government rebate and sellable green energy certificates. The first system also had the 44c/kWh feed in tariff (solar bonus scheme that ended in 2012). The second system just gets market rates 6c/kWh

From memory, the first system cost me $2500 out of pocket, and it paid for itself before it was removed in 2018. The second system cost me $7500 out of pocket, and it will pay for itself by next year (assuming the sun keeps shining).

But the point was, people follow the money, not the technology. Once EV are cheaper that ICE, then sales will move across.

Do I believe EV are the way of the future? Yes.

Do I believe that the government should subsidise EV? No, definitely not. Let the market decide as competition will force EV manufacturers to lower manufacturing costs.

(Disclosure, I am a sparkie by trade, so I am biased towards EV.)

Edit: fixed typo

Sorry but I didn't know the answer as I live offgrid under my own self funded solar array. Along with EV's I don't believe governments should be subsidising this either.

[Franco Cozzo]

Let's move away from unleaded and diesel because environment

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49759626

Lets do deep sea mining to get our minerals to make the batteries in our EVs and support countries like DRC who use slave labour.

Reminds me of my customers making me sign ethical supplier agreements but they have no problem supporting a country with 1.5M people in concentration camps.

Clown world honk honk

[AMB]

Electric vehicles make perfect sense for all you people stuck in grid locked capital city traffic, moving a few 100 metres to the next set of traffic lights, one person per car, taking ages to go a few tens of kilometres to and from work every day.
One thing I would like to know is what do electric vehicles do for aircon, and how effective is it in Australian conditions? I imagine it would have to use a fair bit of battery power.

[Bossxr8]

The australian government is probably not going to support EV's due to the fact we won't be able to supply enough power to charge them all. If they keep phasing out coal power plants our electricity generation is going to a ****show when demand peaks. Black outs are going to become more common when baseload power generation gets to low levels.

Can't see how we are going to be able to charge millions of EV's on top of that.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by AMB

Electric vehicles make perfect sense for all you people stuck in grid locked capital city traffic, moving a few 100 metres to the next set of traffic lights, one person per car, taking ages to go a few tens of kilometres to and from work every day.
One thing I would like to know is what do electric vehicles do for aircon, and how effective is it in Australian conditions? I imagine it would have to use a fair bit of battery power.

EV use "inverter" style air conditioners. A variable speed controller draws DC from the battery and runs it through an inverter to the AC motor on the compressor. Depending on heat load, the inverter varies its output frequency. Low heat load = low inverter frequency = low power draw. High heat load = high inverter frequency = high power draw. This is similar to the inverter AC units in your home. Like all inverter units, they are very energy efficient at partial loads.

In addition, part of the AC cooling capacity is diverted to keep the battery bank cool. At night, when the vehicle is taking a heavy charge, it is not unusual to hear the inverter and coolant pumps whirling away at low speed.

When I had the Outlander PHEV we had a week in with 45C outside temperatures. It was nice and cold inside. I even use to turn on the AC from my phone before heading out so it pre-cooled. The only problem was that it sounded like a X-Wing getting ready for takeoff.

Most EV are very inefficient with heating. Except for the Tesla Model Y fitted with the new octovalve, there is a simple and large resistive heater (similar to what is inside an electric kettle). This chews through electricity like you would not believe.

And, yes, the use case for EV works best in urban crawl traffic. When I had the PHEV it was a 40km round trip from home to work, which took around 50 minutes on the way in and 60 - 90 minutes on the way home.

But, here is the paradigm with EV that people with ICE often cannot get their head around. Every time you stop, you can charge. Even if it is at a slow rate from a 10A domestic power point. So, in the case above, if I had an EV with, say, a limited 300km range, every night I could recharge it so that every morning I had full range. Car sitting in the garage at night - recharge. Car sitting at the office during the day - recharge. Car sitting at the shopping centre for two hours - recharge.

Where the current crop of EV fall down is long distance, as in greater than 400km in a day. This requires a bit of planning so that toilet / coffee breaks jump from fast charging station to fast charging station. And hopefully, there is not an ICE sitting in the charging station spot.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Sorry but I didn't know the answer as I live offgrid under my own self funded solar array. Along with EV's I don't believe governments should be subsidising this either.

Hummm ... depends. If it is a home brew off grid system, you cannot claim the credits. But if it was installed by a licenced solar PV installer, they would have definitely claimed the "small-scale Renewable Energy Scheme".

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by whynot

Hummm ... depends. If it is a home brew off grid system, you cannot claim the credits. But if it was installed by a licenced solar PV installer, they would have definitely claimed the "small-scale Renewable Energy Scheme".

Nah, I don't want to make money out of it, I'm happy generating my own power away from any Govco and power company interference.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The australian government is probably not going to support EV's due to the fact we won't be able to supply enough power to charge them all. If they keep phasing out coal power plants our electricity generation is going to a ****show when demand peaks. Black outs are going to become more common when baseload power generation gets to low levels.

Can't see how we are going to be able to charge millions of EV's on top of that.

Personally, I think there are two separate problems that are somewhat interrelated. 1) withdrawal of coal fired generation (particularly when gas seems out of the question), and 2) managing EV power draw.

Once again, it depends on how people co-operate. My PHEV was connected to a demand tariff. If there was a problem on the network, or lack of generation, or over peak periods, the electricity utility could turn the charger off. I had the PHEV hooked up for about three years and it never complained about being switched off.

You may have heard of V2G (vehicle to grid) where the EV battery can prop up the grid in an emergency. Just to run some numbers ...

Assume that a typical high voltage feeder has around 1,000 customers and draws around 5,000kW (5MW) across an evening peak that is three hours long (total 15MWh). Assume an electric vehicle has a 50kWh battery (which is on the small size). Therefore, we need 300 vehicles (out of the 1000 customers) to reverse power to the grid in an emergency. At the end of the emergency, the grid can recharge the EV batteries.

Now, this is heavily idealised and you can poke plenty of holes in it. For starters, discharging 50kWh in three hours implies 16kWh reverse power. Which will require a 72amp capacity mains. This is expensive considering that most homes consumer mains max out between 63 to 100A. It also implies that your EV is dead flat and you cannot go anywhere.

Another scenario is that the battery in an EV can become the home standby system. Most EV batteries (around 50 to 100kWh) will happily power a house for a few days to a week. Maybe in 50 years time the average consumer wont give a cracker if the power grid goes off for a few days as they will be self reliant to a large degree.

[kmav23]

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2021/04/b...car-australia/

Australia’s Finally Going To Get An Electric Car That’ll Apparently Cost Well Below $35K

Love the idea of electric cars but also love the idea of being able to afford to eat dinner? Well, you’re in luck because a Sydney-based company reckons it will soon launch an EV that is well below the $44,000 minimum it’ll set you back currently.

According to the Australian Financial Review, a new VW Golf-sized hatchback by BYD is set to be imported by TrueGreen Mobility as early as next year, with CEO Luke Todd confirming that it will be priced “well and truly sub-$35,000.”

As it currently stands, the cheapest EV you can purchase in Australia is the MG SUV, which will set you back $44,000 including on-road costs.

Meanwhile, the cheapest drive-away price you’ll see for a Tesla in Australia is $68,425 excluding on-roads for the Tesla Model 3.

If you’re wondering why they’re so stupid expensive to purchase in Australia, experts cite a severe lack of choice and competition as the main reason. Electric vehicles make up less than 0.2 per cent of Australia’s vehicle fleet, with just 13 of some 200 BEV models actually available for purchase in Australia.

So naturally, the ones you can get in Australia will cost you a pretty penny.

And, in addition to the hefty price tag, you can soon expect to pay additional taxes per kilometre if the Victorian government’s proposed new EV tax gets approved.

Why Is The Victorian Government Going Ahead With This Much-Hated EV Tax Anyway?
But that’s where BYD comes in with something that regular people can afford.

Despite being relatively unknown here in Australia, BYD (which stands for Build Your Dreams) has been making cars since 1987, and recently saw a 300 per cent rise in shares, with Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway owning an 8.2 per cent stake in the company.

The new model, which is set to be imported by TrueGreen Mobility, will reach Australian consumers in the first quarter of 2022, with pre-orders available as early as July 2021.

The BYD EV is built in China with the help of top designers and engineers including the former head of design for Audi Wolfgang Egger.

However, it’s worth noting that the BYD model will only be available for online sales.

In addition to the cheap model, TrueGreen Mobility promises to bring six BYD vehicles to Australia in the next two years, including a luxury SUV.

Additionally, there will be a purpose-built engineering facility in Australia.

“We are setting up an R&D team and engineering facility in Australia to partner with BYD. This is not just us pulling cars off the shelf and bringing them into the country, we are investing into our own production lines in China, we are going to re-engineer to suit,” Todd told the AFR.

If everything goes ahead as planned, you could be driving a sweet BEV for cheaper than ever before.

[Bossxr8]

A chinese EV? Is there anything that could possibly be more undesirable.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

A chinese EV? Is there anything that could possibly be more undesirable.

They are doing a Hyundai of the 90's....fair chance it will work.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...alpine-129948/

I really hope this isnt the end of the megane/clio RS....even if they fell under Alpine that would be OK.

Not that I would ever get to own one, but, another blow for enthusiasts.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...earbox-129947/

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

A chinese EV? Is there anything that could possibly be more undesirable.

They said that about the Japanese in the 50s RSLs. A lot were ‘sent to Coventry’ back then.
It worked out differently.
Our is surprisingly Japanese quality.