VFacts Jan 2012 Falcon 950 sales!!!!!!!!! - Page 12

MrZ · 12-02-2012, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

that can't be true could it? it's a passive system not a primary one..

Of course it's true, it's been illegal since Jan 1st, 2011. So FPV are missing out on up to 1/4 of potential sales...

burnz · 12-02-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davez621

Of course it's true, it's been illegal since Jan 1st, 2011. So FPV are missing out on up to 1/4 of potential sales...

so passive system are mandtory?
EBD, TC, SC,,,,,
i would thought supplimental system first be law
seatbelt "pre tensioners", ABS, airbags..

prydey · 12-02-2012, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davez621

Of course it's true, it's been illegal since Jan 1st, 2011. So FPV are missing out on up to 1/4 of potential sales...

i'd say there are plenty of new cars on the market without stability control, so can't see how they can mandate against it.

MrZ · 12-02-2012, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

i'd say there are plenty of new cars on the market without stability control, so can't see how they can mandate against it.

I thought that the ESC laws in VIC were pretty much common knowledge but I guess it didn't make news in the rest of the country. It's only required on passenger cars and SUVs. Utes and commercial vans can still be sold without it.

Bossxr8 · 12-02-2012, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russellw

Back when launched the structure was thus:

XR6 Manual $ 39,990
XR8 Manual $ 45,490
XR6T Manual $ 45,490

Thus there was no price differential between the turbo and V8 and both were $5,500 dearer than the XR6.

FG2 really didn't change that much - the price reductions really only bought each model back to the original launch pricing.

By way of comparison, at launch (2010) the GS sedan had an RRP of $56,990 - let's say $10,500 more than either the XR8 or XR6T although the auto was a no cost option (it cost $1,500 in the others) and $16,000 more than an XR6.

The table below picks out the main differences between the two models (XR6T and FPV GS) for current models. You can't quite cover all the gaps between the XR6T and the GS but the things that can't be purchased from your Ford dealer (like stripes, badges and some trim bits) don't add to much anyway on a like-for-like basis.

The things you can option add up to $2,424 to bring your XR6T up to the same spec as the GS and thus, the raw difference is $8,000 of premium for the FPV cachet (a marketing term that translates to "gullible enough to think the badge matters").

Some of that is in the engine obviously but just how much is debatable. I'd suggest that if the early XR8 could be sold at a matching price to the XR6T and the imported bits for the engines were coming in with the $AU at 60 cents, then the Coyote engine probably costs less. Except for the development budget of course!

Sensibly, you'd throw the luxo pack onto your XR anyway - gain dual zone climate, the 19's, premium audio, SatNav, leather and the reverse camera for the miserable sum of $4,500 and have more fruit than the GS as well as about $5k (less the engine uplift) for fuel.

Cheers
Russ

The GS has other things that would not be available on an XR8, like bi-modal twin exhaust, XR8 would be a single, GS stickers on bonnet and down the sides, extra gauges, starter button etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

clearly not an engineer are we??

2 years of mechanical engineering actually. If they were true engineers why the hell would they go to the expense of putting a VVT system onto a single cam in block engine. Talk about barn door engineering, and trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They should have switched to OHC when everyone else did a decade or 2 ago.

Sorry for putting down your precious Holden/GM engine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davez621

How come the GS doesn't have stability control but the XR6T does? It's illegal to sell a car in VIC without it...?

Also why does the GS have less airbags than the XR6T?

GS does have stability control, has since FG, but BF didn't have it in FPV's.
Airbag count is now the same too isn't it with FG2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

i'd say there are plenty of new cars on the market without stability control, so can't see how they can mandate against it.

Cars without ESC can't be sold in Vic.

burnz · 12-02-2012, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

2 years of mechanical engineering actually. If they were true engineers why the hell would they go to the expense of putting a VVT system onto a single cam in block engine. Talk about barn door engineering, and trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They should have switched to OHC when everyone else did a decade or 2 ago.
.

not to turn into a debate or argument. what on earth makes you think OHC is cost or reliably effective, pushrod is both.
the older tech OHC, yes pushrod is more modern by 2 yrs lol,,

OHC is more efficient due to less parasitic loss but thats it,,

2V, 3V, 4V are allso done by cam in block!!
cummins has had engine since the 60s with 4valve vvt cam in block,,
simply for less maintanance and reliability!! fact.

1TUFFUTE · 12-02-2012, 06:28 PM

so if the xr and the gs are so close in specs and options...why not make it an xr8....drop the price and leave the 335 for fpv to option back up for GT GTP and so on.....would sell loads more surely....all we ever seem to hear is that the gs is poverty pac anyway on here. Not sure what the downsides are to that plan but im not silly enough to think ford hasnt done their homework regardless...

burnz · 12-02-2012, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

so if the xr and the gs are so close in specs and options...why not make it an xr8....drop the price and leave the 335 for fpv to option back up for GT GTP and so on.....would sell loads more surely....all we ever seem to hear is that the gs is poverty pac anyway on here. Not sure what the downsides are to that plan but im not silly enough to think ford hasnt done their homework regardless...

you still need to differentsiate the two (spellcheck)
a 310 XR8 not to steel sale from 335 FPV,
but say 300 G8 and G8e will be good...

as i approch retirement i dont want a luxo barge powered by a six..

stato's never had them, neither did ltd's have them, it's just wrong, sacriledge a V8 only for the luxo.

a G8E or calais or caprice should come with a V8 option..

Bossxr8 · 12-02-2012, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

not to turn into a debate or argument. what on earth makes you think OHC is cost or reliably effective, pushrod is both.
the older tech OHC, yes pushrod is more modern by 2 yrs lol,,

OHC is more efficient due to less parasitic loss but thats it,,

2V, 3V, 4V are allso done by cam in block!!
cummins has had engine since the 60s with 4valve vvt cam in block,,
simply for less maintanance and reliability!! fact.

Why bother having VVT or VCT when you have only one cam. Doesn't give much advantage, when you can run both VVT and VCT on a DOHC cam engine and get the cam timing wherever you want it.

Seems so half arsedd and cheap.

**DFB FGXR6** · 12-02-2012, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Why bother having VVT or VCT when you have only one cam. Doesn't give much advantage, when you can run both VVT and VCT on a DOHC cam engine and get the cam timing wherever you want it.

Seems so half arsedd and cheap.

Same as Ford did with the SOHC VCT AU six?

burnz · 12-02-2012, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Why bother having VVT or VCT when you have only one cam. Doesn't give much advantage, when you can run both VVT and VCT on a DOHC cam engine and get the cam timing wherever you want it.

Seems so half arsedd and cheap.

cam in cam mean's exactly that
a solid cam into a bored out cam... two independant cams in one place.

Bud Bud · 12-02-2012, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

2 years of mechanical engineering actually. If they were true engineers why the hell would they go to the expense of putting a VVT system onto a single cam in block engine. Talk about barn door engineering, and trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They should have switched to OHC when everyone else did a decade or 2 ago.

Sorry for putting down your precious Holden/GM engine.

I think that the push rods vs multi (at least 2 if not 4) overhead cams debate is so misunderstood imho.

Everyone loves to point out the archaic nature of the push rod V8 Commos but the fact still remains that they are still selling 1 in every 4 with this V8. How many 4 overhead cam V8 XR8 and G8E Falcon's do Ford sell these days? The current engine should at least still be available as a NA 5.0 V8 keeping the XR8 name plate alive and helping to improve sales (read image) for Ford overall, especially in the ute. This should be the argument in this thread not how old the push rod design is, especially when the over head cam design is actually older anyway.

But while we are at it, the reason why Holden have nailed it with the petrol heads with an old fashioned V8 is because it is cheap and easy to upgrade a single cam to make good reliable power from these cars. There are far more cammed cars on the road than some people might think. It is also damn expensive and also a technical challenge to replace 4 cams to do the same job. Also the push rod engine is lighter and has a much lower cg and both of these points alone can only help with the overall performance of the car as well. This engine makes a neat small compact ball of muscle and anybody who has worked on both the LS1 and the old 260-290 boss and the current coyote would know exactly what I am talking about. Perhaps somehow this very fact is lost or just not understood with some people on this forum.

I was talking to Rob Herrod when he was building the DJR 320 car and he told me that they were having all sorts of problems with idle etc, which was directly related to the multi-cam upgrade set up. I think they sort of sorted it but it was never really satisfactory, That's why no one ever does it.

Ford still needs an entry level V8 imho no matter what the bean counters say, but if it came with push rods to keep the price down and perhaps reel in some potential Commodore buyers, well after reading some of the replies in this thread, then i think some here would kill it off before it got going anyway.

Bud Bud

Dr Smith · 12-02-2012, 08:09 PM

A big thank-you for your post Russell. You've definately highlighted some things to me using cold hard numbers. The thing is I can order something anytime and have the luxury of access to a SZ Titanium tdi, FGii G6E through family and they are great cars while I still own a G6ET. If there was a G8E I would order tonight, I can't justify a GT-E when there's typical school fess, etc... and I prefer the luxury look to XR's/GS/GT. At least the longer I wait the greater equity I gain in my car, lol.

I love the G6ET and could buy again while the head says buy a Terry as it's more practical...however a G8E would have me

Bossxr8 · 12-02-2012, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Same as Ford did with the SOHC VCT AU six?

Yep, and it didn't gain much from it, a couple of kw's and nm's. But it gave Ford some experience with it they learnt from and carried over to the VCT fitted to the BA.

Bossxr8 · 12-02-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

I think that the push rods vs multi (at least 2 if not 4) overhead cams debate is so misunderstood imho.

Everyone loves to point out the archaic nature of the push rod V8 Commos but the fact still remains that they are still selling 1 in every 4 with this V8. How many 4 overhead cam V8 XR8 and G8E Falcon's do Ford sell these days? The current engine should at least still be available as a NA 5.0 V8 keeping the XR8 name plate alive and helping to improve sales (read image) for Ford overall, especially in the ute. This should be the argument in this thread not how old the push rod design is, especially when the over head cam design is actually older anyway.

But while we are at it, the reason why Holden have nailed it with the petrol heads with an old fashioned V8 is because it is cheap and easy to upgrade a single cam to make good reliable power from these cars. There are far more cammed cars on the road than some people might think. It is also damn expensive and also a technical challenge to replace 4 cams to do the same job. Also the push rod engine is lighter and has a much lower cg and both of these points alone can only help with the overall performance of the car as well. This engine makes a neat small compact ball of muscle and anybody who has worked on both the LS1 and the old 260-290 boss and the current coyote would know exactly what I am talking about. Perhaps somehow this very fact is lost or just not understood with some people on this forum.

I was talking to Rob Herrod when he was building the DJR 320 car and he told me that they were having all sorts of problems with idle etc, which was directly related to the multi-cam upgrade set up. I think they sort of sorted it but it was never really satisfactory, That's why no one ever does it.

Ford still needs an entry level V8 imho no matter what the bean counters say, but if it came with push rods to keep the price down and perhaps reel in some potential Commodore buyers, well after reading some of the replies in this thread, then i think some here would kill it off before it got going anyway.

Bud Bud

Holden sell so any V8's cause the V6 is so crap.

And the 5.4 was a truck motor, so of course it was big and heavy, plus it was designed to be also used in FWD's so ran small bores and long strokes which pushed the deck heights way up. It was just a compromised design that was never what it should have been. The 5.0 Coyote Miami is a much better design and fixed a lot of these issues, and being all alloy bought the weight way down, and dropped the CoG. Wouldn't weigh much more than an LS1 and smashes it for efficiency.

The DJR320's had idle problems because they didn't have the SCT Flash tuner available at the time, so had no way of tuning the idle. Problem solved with the flash tuner that gave full control over idle settings. Not the engines fault at all, just needed the right tools to tune it. Nothing to do with quad cams either.

FPV GTHO · 12-02-2012, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

I was talking to Rob Herrod when he was building the DJR 320 car and he told me that they were having all sorts of problems with idle etc, which was directly related to the multi-cam upgrade set up.

Did Herrod say that or is that your guess? I distinctly remember the press reporting the cam issues as stemming from an inability to raise the idle to suite, as the most advanced tuning available at the time was through a Unichip.

phillyc · 12-02-2012, 08:55 PM

It's 2012. Plenty of cam options available for the Boss 5.4L. In fact, Herrod has in the past 12 months released his own which make more power up top, but importantly really fatten the mid range

But, this thread was never really meant to be about DOHC versus OHV. It is meant to be Falcon sales and how they could be improved. Ie EcoLPi production has ramped up, EcoBoost with SIDI 3.0L smashing performance and economy is coming in April. FG2 prices are lowered $3k in RRP land and importantly back to $36,990 driveaway for XR6. The only other real holes are wagon and no XR8/G8E.

prydey · 12-02-2012, 09:03 PM

is wagon really a hole? it was selling about 2-400/month. since its demise, you could argue that mondeo and territory sales have increased by at least 400/month between them.

i don't really want to ignite the wagon debate again, but there seems to be the thought that ford don't put thought into what they do. like they just woke up one morning and decided it was a nice day to cease production of wagon or something.

many on here critisize holden for the money they get handed from the govt, but these same people are not happy that ford don't spend willy nilly with theirs. you can't have it both ways.

jpd80 · 12-02-2012, 09:20 PM

When Polites introduced Territory, the bulk of wagon buyers migrated over to RWD Territory,
it was only through mishandling Territory engine needs that the bulk of sales evaporated.

While diesel is great and I-6 economy has been improved with ZF, I can't help feeling that
a 2.0 Ecoboost in the Territory in TX RWD 5 seater would add to sales by lowering weight
to just on 1900 Kg and dropping combined economy from 10.6 l/100 km to 8.7 l/100 km
all without that $3,000 odd price premium...

prydey · 12-02-2012, 09:28 PM

i wonder if there are any plans to ecoboost the territory. i guess its the same argument as diesel in falcon. diesel is perceived much better in large vehicles and petrol still works well in large passenger cars.

jpd80 · 12-02-2012, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

i wonder if there are any plans to ecoboost the territory. i guess its the same argument as diesel in falcon. diesel is perceived much better in large vehicles and petrol still works well in large passenger cars.

Ford US put Ecoboost in Edge and Explorer, two vehicles that sit just above and below Territory,
I personally think it would work in the same vein as Ecoboost Falcon but I'm also willing
to concede that it may spell the end for the I-6 in Territory, maybe that's why it's absent..

naddis01 · 12-02-2012, 10:53 PM

I thought this thread could do with some more numbers...

January 2012 Sales Results - Top Ten, Mazda and Performance Model Breakdown

Top Ten Sales By Marque (Marque - Monthly Sales)
1.Toyota - 14,065
2.Holden - 9,061
3.Mazda - 8,479
4.Hyundai - 6,513
5.Ford - 5,838
6.Nissan - 5,358
7.Mitsubishi - 4,566
8.Volkswagen - 3,366
9.Subaru - 3,205
10.Kia - 2,276
Total Market - 76,783

Top Ten Sales by Model (Marque/Model - Monthly Sales)
1.Mazda Mazda3 - 4,045
2.Toyota Corolla - 3,383
3.Holden Cruze - 2,445
4.Holden Commodore - 2,170
5.Hyundai i30 - 1,986
6.Mazda Mazda2 - 1,624
7.Nissan Navara - 1,609
8.Ford Focus - 1,576
9.Mitsubishi Lancer - 1,470
10.Toyota Yaris - 1,352

Mazda Model Breakdown (Model - Monthly Sales)Mazda2 - 1,624
Mazda3 - 4,028
Mazda3 MPS - 17
Mazda6 - 663
MX-5 - 22
RX-8 - 6
CX-7 - 1,167
CX-9 - 392
BT-50 4X2 - 158
BT-50 4X4 - 402

Performance Model Breakdown (Marque - Model - Monthly Sales)
1.Subaru - Impreza WRX - 158
2.Volkswagen - Golf GTI - 134
3.Renault - Megane RS250 - 28
4.Mazda - Mazda3 MPS - 17
5.Honda - Civic Type R - 15
6.Mitsubishi - Lancer Ralliart - 14

1.Volkswagen - Golf R - 93
2.Mitsubishi - Lancer Evolution - 10
3.Subaru - Impreza WRX STI - 5

XR Martin · 12-02-2012, 11:40 PM

I remember when the WRX sold over 300 a month, MX5 is dead, Ralliart is pathetic.
Wonder how the FT86 and BRZ twins will go? I reckon Over 500 a month combined if they price them right.

Buntz · 13-02-2012, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redrum

Ford were offering customers who had ordered new Falcons that were hail damaged a $500 discount to take them, wow.

Local car industry not looking good at all, bring back tariffs.

Yep... bring back higher tariffs. And... increase government support.

jpd80 · 13-02-2012, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holden sell so any V8's cause the V6 is so crap.
.

And that's the key here, what the average punter actually wants. I have a suspicion that in an ideal world,
it would be either a Ford/Holden 4.0 DI V8 with around 250 Kw and 420 nm coupled to an 6 or 8-speed auto trans.
A mini Coyote that is capable of I-6 like fuel economy but with way more performance..

Below that level, Ford/Holden could have their economy engines like 2.0 Ecoboost or a V6 diesel
Well, not below that level...let's say as an alternative for those seeking maximum fuel economy.

It's very hard these days to get buyers interested in +$40K combinations but
I think you could sell the 4.0 V8 and win back a lot of private buyers with a great engine.

**Polyal** · 13-02-2012, 09:21 AM

For me the XR8/G8E "issue" is as simple as this. The Falcon is on notice..we have 4 odd years to prove that the formula works when consumers are given the options they want or need.

Historically the Falcon has been offered with a V8 to suit the "average Australian", a way in which they can have the feeling that a V8 brings without resorting to buying a GT/GS..because in all honestly there are IMO alot of Ford V8 buyers who wont be able to justify the step up to a S/C powerplant because their needs dont go that far...for some its even just the noise that gets them over the line.

So we can sit and bicker about whether or not is worth having a crack, we quote sales figures from a car that everyone knew was ending and got a pasting regularly in the press despite it actually being a better engineered car than the SS. Therefore bulk power is not the be all and end all like it is with the GT (and to lesser extent the GS).

Miami shows that when you put the right engine in the right car they can sell, FPV deserve praise for what they have done and the risk they took.

But the Falcon buyer IMO is different to the FPV buyer only generally by age and income (or maybe the fact they just have more going on in their lives and dont want to stretch to a FPV just yet).

If Ford sit around for much longer then they will never know, the falcon is going to morph into something pretty much regardless so you might as well give it a chance, if it doesnt work then they are going to lose anyway.

For once I would like to see Ford take a risk..I think the stakes at the moment could justify the attempt.

Plus I can see some very cool mustang related advertisements possible.

csv8 · 13-02-2012, 10:46 AM

BossXR8...front seats optional in the GS !!!!

Spammy · 13-02-2012, 11:02 AM

Top Ten Sales by Model (Marque/Model - Monthly Sales)
1.Mazda Mazda3 - 4,045
2.Toyota Corolla - 3,383
3.Holden Cruze - 2,445
4.Holden Commodore - 2,170
5.Hyundai i30 - 1,986
6.Mazda Mazda2 - 1,624
7.Nissan Navara - 1,609
8.Ford Focus - 1,576
9.Mitsubishi Lancer - 1,470
10.Toyota Yaris - 1,352

Being outside the top 10 in your local market, which in itself barely registers on world production charts, will not be fixed by an uptick in advertsising or a free set of floor mats. As a product the Falcon has lost it's customer base.

They have either grown old and don't buy cars (or large cars ) anymore or they have shifted to mid-market euros, or anyone with a family (and/or boat) has long gone to a SUV.

Products have an expiry date and Falcon is at or near that date.

The middle classes have become wealthier and very "asperational" with their spending. Overseas travel, luxury good etc are the norm rather than the exception and Falcons are not an asperational purchase for the demographic who are buying new cars.

prydey · 13-02-2012, 11:11 AM

and if falcon jumps back into the top 10, what then?

Brazen · 13-02-2012, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spammy

Top Ten Sales by Model (Marque/Model - Monthly Sales)
1.Mazda Mazda3 - 4,045
2.Toyota Corolla - 3,383
3.Holden Cruze - 2,445
4.Holden Commodore - 2,170
5.Hyundai i30 - 1,986
6.Mazda Mazda2 - 1,624
7.Nissan Navara - 1,609
8.Ford Focus - 1,576
9.Mitsubishi Lancer - 1,470
10.Toyota Yaris - 1,352

Being outside the top 10 in your local market, which in itself barely registers on world production charts, will not be fixed by an uptick in advertsising or a free set of floor mats. As a product the Falcon has lost it's customer base.

They have either grown old and don't buy cars (or large cars ) anymore or they have shifted to mid-market euros, or anyone with a family (and/or boat) has long gone to a SUV.

Products have an expiry date and Falcon is at or near that date.

The middle classes have become wealthier and very "asperational" with their spending. Overseas travel, luxury good etc are the norm rather than the exception and Falcons are not an asperational purchase for the demographic who are buying new cars.

I personally think a Falcon is the most aspirational in that list along with Commodore. Its too late to do anything with wagon. But they really should recondiser the no XR8/G8E policy. Falcon isnt a family car anymore - that's what SUVs and small cars are for. Instead the Falcon has to adapt, a new XR8 would reinvigorate the brand. Performance, Design, Luxury and Tech will sell these type of cars in the future - economy and utility and handled by other vehicles in the market.

It would give an excuse for Holden buyers to get into something different than a 6 year old VE and also give XR6 Turbo drivers buyers since 2002 a reason to update into a new Falcon with a different engine.

Plus at least us bloody rural buyers could drop by the local Ford dealer and get a V8 ute, rather than driving 1100km round trip to Brisbane!