Tax the rich?

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

look at the peasants arguing dear !!!!

cannot recall where i read this a few days ago , i could even be making it up , or may have lived it in a passed life .

The lowest income of the top 1% is $15 000 000.
the average income of the top 3% is $183 000 .
now . i think we can see that the lowest 97% cant fix much .

Sounds like what I was reading, if you find it, link me

[gtfpv]

Was talking with my wife about this thread , and i was mentioning something about 50% of tax payers get it all back in some form of rebate .
then i thought about us , paying about $60 000 in tax every year get nothing .
then i thought about it , we get about $200 p/mth in private health rebate . we pay 1% less medicare tax , cause we're in a private fund. the prescriptions we get every month are rebated from the govt . that could be thousands over the year . when we visit a GP, its , no charge , when we see a specialist , we get a govt rebate , as well . if we go to an emergency dep hospital , we could literally get $50 000 worth of medical work done , in a non life threatening way . just from tests even . my kids go to school for about $10 a week in fees each .

and i'm supposedly in the top 5% of income earners . is it possible i'm getting a hell of a lot of money back of the govt , without even realizing ????

[turboclown]

Originally Posted by tweeked

And your post is perhaps a perfect example of not reading, or maybe a lack of funding in the teachings of geography - I said "in" Australia.

and he does it again, you need help

[BHDOGS]

13 billion for negative gearing that's how much us tax payers give back to the home owners here your welcome signed poor tax payers

[cheap]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

Was talking with my wife about this thread , and i was mentioning something about 50% of tax payers get it all back in some form of rebate .
then i thought about us , paying about $60 000 in tax every year get nothing .
then i thought about it , we get about $200 p/mth in private health rebate . we pay 1% less medicare tax , cause we're in a private fund. the prescriptions we get every month are rebated from the govt . that could be thousands over the year . when we visit a GP, its , no charge , when we see a specialist , we get a govt rebate , as well . if we go to an emergency dep hospital , we could literally get $50 000 worth of medical work done , in a non life threatening way . just from tests even . my kids go to school for about $10 a week in fees each .

and i'm supposedly in the top 5% of income earners . is it possible i'm getting a hell of a lot of money back of the govt , without even realizing ????

During the same conversation, did you consider the consequences of getting a hell of a lot of money back off the govt? Nothing is after-all free...

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by cheap

During the same conversation, did you consider the consequences of getting a hell of a lot of money back off the govt? Nothing is after-all free...

well yes i did consider the consequences , and i came to the conclusion , that everybody pays tax , even if its just in GST . OF COURSE I'M PAYING MORE THAN INCOME TAX TOO , SO I'M PROBABLY PAYING 60% TAX (80- 100k)
I also thought about the taxes ive paid over the years , and ive also thought of people who minimise thier tax , something that i dont in the form of investing . ( private investing probably saves the govt in areas also ) it's complicated .
But i concluded that the top end Must be paying the MOST TAX . by a LOT !!!! Otherwise it wouldnt work ,
therefore the exuberant wealth of the top 1% , and then to add further up the list , BIG CORPORATES AND BANKS !!! MUST BE RETURNING 100'S OF BILLIONS . OTHERWISE AS I SAID IN EARLIER POSTS , THE BOTTOM 95% SAY , cant change much .

lets take a turn in this thread , and think about poilitics like why do some drugs cost $20000 - $100,000 per box !!!!! ( and it brings a more complicated mix into the equation) when these drugs can be made for mere short change .( TALK ABOUT CLASS SOCIETY ORIENTATION THERE)<< the real economy

Aside from that , the cosequences i GUESS THE TOP END OF TOWN IS WHERE IT'S AT .
If people were to recoup the wealth more evenly , everyone ( how would we all fare? ) I TRULY DONT KNOW !!! would we get out of bed !!!! would the worlkd be better , or would the F, U JACK creep back into the system creating a wealth top end again .
IT'S COMPLICATED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OF COURSE I'M NO ECONOMIST , AND COULD BE WRONG !!!


^^^^^^^^ EDITED PLEASE RE READ ^^^^^^^^^^and EDITED AGAIN , PLEASE RE READ AGAIN . ( FINAL EDIT)

[gtfpv]

Ever heard a welfare recipient saying how thier money goes back into society !!! WELL, I KNOW HOW THEY FEEL !!!

what about the people who store thier money , i know plenty of tight asses in thier 50's and 60's who never spent a cent and have millions in the bank that they will die with . !!!!!

then there are the others of the same cut , owning 5 houses and paying off number 6 , therefore having a mortgage and living tight !!!

is the answer increasing retirement age , to 70 years , and privatising everything , cutting health benifits . !!!! ( i think it's greater than that ) but once again i'm not educated enough to have the answers ( only thoughts ) . i wish i was though , cause i'm listening to liers and mixed opionions from those of different experiences and agendas ( me for priminister ) !!!!!!!!!!

[gtfpv]

my mind is now racing . Howabout a tiered system , where if your good enough to pull away in wealth , then you must go up a class and pay more for things , or live in more expensive suburbs , and vice versa .
maybe retire if youve acheived enough to maintain your living for life , and let the next person come in and have your job . that way you decide how you want to live and how long you work , based on where you live . imagine some mock up of that system .
everyone will be self funded , and there will still be means tested welfare . and the sharks wont be swimming amoungst the fish then , but with thier own kind
fairytale stuff .

someone lives in an old cheap shitter and has 5 houses . the govt comes in and checks there living expense histroy and says . retire or sell some of those houses pay your tax and live in a better more expensive area . the guy can chose to retire , or move up .or give someone else some money . the person / people they give money too , becomes more self sufficient thenm and less reliable , there are many people out there who dont need to work , holding onto good jobs , holding others who need that job out of work , give them the option to need that job , by spending some of thier money , or retire .

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by Lotte

Your claim was still ridiculous - and something I wasn't even going to address, because I honestly thought it was tongue in cheek.

The part about being descriminated about was definately tongue in cheek, I have nothing to complain about in my lot in life - but then again if i did, the first thing I would do is see what I could do about it and work really hard.

[ILLaViTaR]

A real concern for the future is why the world is currently in such a tight position. The rich aren't spending their money, this puts the market/productivity in suspense and collapses the economy as a result..

Now all these handouts, pensions and healthcare and as unethical as they may seem in the views of some. Are not the problem, the low class who receive these handouts are not conservatives, they blow the money on consumables and daily lifestyle. They can get smashed and buy munchies every night and they will be contributing to the economy more than the rich. The problem is once they buy their grog/munchies that money then goes to woolworths family trust, which is then sequestered offshore and never seen again by the economy, Reinhardt and their friends have this vision for our future, collapase the economy into a split class system for cheap/slave labour.

So in reality the rich are actually killing the country and the liberal attacks on low class handouts are another yet blow to the tiny percentage of national wealth we hardly have left to stimulate our economy with and keep it afloat.. once all these handouts go what's left to stimulate the economy besides 2 billion p.a. in negative gearing handouts and estimated 120 billion pa in small business rorts??? That's only 140 billion to keep our economy afloat with!! And most the 2 billion will sit in peoples bank accounts.. but at least the estimated 120 billion+ loss p.a. from small business rorts will go a long way in stimulating our economy, rorting bmw's with leather seats on the fbt for hauling bricks means the bloke pays an extra 5-10k per vehicle on avg for those leather seats meaning the economy gets an extra 5-10k of life blood, but only until the loan company/banks sequester it as well/invest it privately.

And given privatization a decade ago I'm pretty sure the rich now have their hands on pretty much all of the economy bar the handouts?

So the small percentage of wealth our country still has keeping it afloat/stimulating will soon filter it's way towards the rich where it will sit in limbo.

Then there's no welfare/handouts left to float the economy with, because it's all been removed and gone Gina's way to sit in limbo. We'll have to rely on middle class workers who will then become underwaged, replaced by unskilled visa work and will become low class workers within the next 10yrs. Then we will be China. It's quite simple really conservationism kills capitalism. Money needs to move for capitalism to sustain itself. How is that fact not get realized by conservationists? Do conservationists not understand simple economics?

Keating understood simple economics and mastered them it's a shame no one else has been able to ever since.

[Charliewool]

I own a small business...
Please oh please enlighten me on how I can partake of some of this 120 billion in rorts?
Maybe I'm running it wrong as all I ever seem to do is tip into the pot.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by tweeked

The part about being descriminated about was definately tongue in cheek, I have nothing to complain about in my lot in life - but then again if i did, the first thing I would do is see what I could do about it and work really hard.

Oh good, I was gonna say, I've read quite a few of your posts on here and thought you'd be the last person to make that claim

*tips hat again*

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

I own a small business...
Please oh please enlighten me on how I can partake of some of this 120 billion in rorts?
Maybe I'm running it wrong as all I ever seem to do is tip into the pot.

My apologies 5/6 small business fail and dedicate more hours for less reward and put more on the line than arguably most other workers.

I am referring to the 1/6 like my next door neighbour. He inherited a window/doors/silicon trade and is basically one of my key reasons for my opinions on this forum, growing up next to it all for half of my childhood. He inherited it from his grandfather, never worked a hard day in his life, never been in the real world and never experienced financial insecurity and never will.

But it gets bad when he raises his kids as elitists and turns them against the other 3 families in the street and only associates them with kids from private schools. Another James Packer charity generation. But then neighbour also get's his best mate in the local council to cover filling in for local residential zoning guy while he's on leave overseas, so he can exploit a loophole that he has been trying to exploit for years.. he got his mate to fill in and make a "mistake" and approve him of using his nature strip as PRIVATE car park. And quickly did the landscaping before the residential zoning guy returned from his trip and became aware of the "mistake" his fill in had made. The atrocity here is he won't let anyone park adjacent on it, he thinks it's the only nature strip in the world that's entitled to no adjacent parking.

Then it gets ridiculous when he contributes to stealing 120 billion dollars of tax payers money. Firstly he has 2 work cars (a NON base model ute...) and a BMW :S. A few years ago he crossed the line and appointed his wife as his businesses full time company director and then purchased her a holden grange.... 80k from our pockets stolen for the grange, plus the bmw and the rorts of making her his director.

The director thing was it for me, she is a housewife with no skill-sets who spends who her days in their probably tax deducted inground pool. She is actually not involved the company at all, does nothing he does the directing. If it wasn't for us being on good terms with them as well as privacy laws I would've already sent her 9am-5pm swimming pool footage to the ATO and got all our money back he stole from us to give to his wife/himself/his kids etc.


That Holden grange sits in that private naturestrip carpark and grows cobwebs, goes out twice a week and is back from the servo within 10min, buys red wine and recluse to the swimming pool instead of directing her staff... Thieves. Scum. Doubt she's actually used it to drive to a working site even once in the last year let alone the last 3. But I wonder how much FBT percentage she as declared as commercial? I'm pretty sure she would've declared more than 0.3% commercial use. Meaning she's stealing tax dollars from us on the premise it's being actually being used for work purposes.

Why are we paying for her to sit on leather seats in prestige Holdens so she can drop down to Dan muprhies every couple days.... We're giving her that money to direct her company and the ATO wouldn't be too happy she's using to fill the hole of menopause. Over half the population all go through it at one point in their life, difference is they don't get Holden granges and BMW's to chauffeur them to their red wine. Why does she deserve any special treatment? Oh wait she doesn't she's meant to be a director who's simply isn't and therefore rorting the system!!

[JG34JA]

That's a shocker ILLaViTaR. Their business must run some form of cashflow to at least make payments on these nicities parked on the verge, private education etc.

Here's a solution: Flat 11% tax on everything. No other rules. No exceptions. For everyone. Much smaller ATO. Much simpler process.

*Ancient Chinese would divide plantings into 9 squares and give one to the officials (1/9 = 11%) in form of tax, the other 8 they kept. If you look at the effective 60% tax described above (when you spend it you get taxed more) this seems inherently better for everyone. In addition, post war Japan spent year after year reducing tax and reducing regulation to this approximate level - and over the 1960's decade their government's tax take actually grew 10 fold as their economy was freed to expand dramatically in size. Sadly they abandoned this simple low regulation low taxation environment after 1972 on US Ivy league economic advice.)

[Charliewool]

ILLaViTaR..... So now it's 1 in 6 small business's rorting???
Please keep your bullshit generalisations to yourself!
(come back to me when you've got 20 or 30yrs of running YOUR OWN business under your belt)

Just on the "stealing" neighbour thing...
How do YOU KNOW she doesn't work at home?
How do YOU KNOW their company structure??
How do YOU BLOODY KNOW what tax they do or DON'T pay??
You DON'T...
So STFU and don't comment on things you have NO idea of!

[cheap]

Originally Posted by JG34JA

Here's a solution: Flat 11% tax on everything. No other rules. No exceptions. For everyone. Much smaller ATO. Much simpler process.

The problem with increasing the GST is that it entirely goes to the states and we all know how well they are at removing state taxes that they were supposed to remove...

[Lotte]

I don't think he was talking about a GST increase....

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

My apologies 5/6 small business fail and dedicate more hours for less reward and put more on the line than arguably most other workers.

I am referring to the 1/6 like my next door neighbour. ......... !

What a crock! I did ask for this thread to not involve personal attacks but your thoughts are disturbing to say the least.

For one. How they spend their money and how they operate their business is actually, NONE of your business. They seem, by your silly observations, to be doing OK with their company and as long as they run it above board, I see no issues whats so ever.

There are perks when owning a business. But there are also HUGE risks and legal requirements that can heavily outway these perks. I am one of those business owners who you slander and think so little of. I have built a business with determination and against great odds and find your way of thinking ridiculously naive, stupid and short sighted to the extreme, boarding on total jealously.

One day I want to pass this business down to my son, as he works with me, and his family and don't need people like yourself saying that there is something wrong in that. I hope he never bumps into you. I have built it up from absolute scratch and if you were my neighbor peering over my fence I wouldn't be too happy about it.

Who gives a **** what they drive? Obviously you do. Why is it your business? Do you know his balance sheets? How much he pays in taxes? How many families he helps to support though his business? Is it your business to know this? My advice? Keep your nose out of it and concentrate more on what you are doing in your life than what others next door are doing. You will live longer and be happier about it.

I do not understand why people HATE those that are successful? Is it just jealousy? They have stuff that they cannot get but want? Thats the way things are ...... the grass is always greener ...... keeping up with the Jones ..... jealous because of someone else's lifestyle ........ its the way the world runs and even though people can have a rough trot in life, some manage to get off their bum and make their life a good one!!!! Wealth is calculated differently by everyone. Just sad that there are people above that are more concerned on what is happening next door.

Want to know how many cars I own through the company? Not telling .... none of your business ....

Want to know how much tax I pay every year? A hell of a lot but not telling as it is none of your business.

Will tell you though, I keep 20 families employed ......

Really mate ....... you have no ******* idea what you are talking about, as personal as that is, that is a fact. You wanted to be personal about business owners, some want to bag teachers, some want to bag out those on the dole or receiving benefits of some sort, a few want to blame the Chinese, some want to bag out child care centres, most want to bag out those with more in their bank account than them, people just want to whinge in general about everyone else and usually about things they have never experienced themselves. Everyone wants to bag out politicians ...... I wouldnt want to be one but if anyone is serious about changing things, it is actually very easy to join a party and go from there.

This BS about big business not paying tax or their dues. I am sure Packer has been bought up. Here is a list I could find only with a quick search even though it is near on 4 years old. Since then Crowne has increased its workforce substantially and just completed an $80,000,000 renovation.

Total Casino Tax - over $3 Billion (approx)
- Annual Crown Levy - $5 Million (approx)
- State’s largest single-site, private sector employer with over 6,500 employees, over 3,300 contractors and over $350 Million annual payroll
- Extensive training facilities with Crown College with over 10,000 employees trained in the past 13 years
- Support for local businesses, with over $125 Million in annual expenditure with suppliers of goods and services
- 75 apprentices
- 3,342 traineeships

Now that is direct figures ........ outside sourced to keep things going?

There are over 4 million light globes
- 597,000 toilet rolls a year are used
- 38,000 uniforms a week are cleaned
- Crown welcomes over 50,000 patrons a day and up to 120,000 during major sporting events
- Over 80,000 cars enter the patron car park per week
- More than 15,000 cars enter valet per month
- Over 256,000,00 cups of coffee have been served in the conference centres
- Over 78,000,00 pads, pens and mints placed in rooms for delegates

[superyob]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

A real concern for the future is why the world is currently in such a tight position. The rich aren't spending their money, this puts the market/productivity in suspense and collapses the economy as a result..

Now all these handouts, pensions and healthcare and as unethical as they may seem in the views of some. Are not the problem, the low class who receive these handouts are not conservatives, they blow the money on consumables and daily lifestyle. They can get smashed and buy munchies every night and they will be contributing to the economy more than the rich. The problem is once they buy their grog/munchies that money then goes to woolworths family trust, which is then sequestered offshore and never seen again by the economy, Reinhardt and their friends have this vision for our future, collapase the economy into a split class system for cheap/slave labour.

So in reality the rich are actually killing the country and the liberal attacks on low class handouts are another yet blow to the tiny percentage of national wealth we hardly have left to stimulate our economy with and keep it afloat.. once all these handouts go what's left to stimulate the economy besides 2 billion p.a. in negative gearing handouts and estimated 120 billion pa in small business rorts??? That's only 140 billion to keep our economy afloat with!! And most the 2 billion will sit in peoples bank accounts.. but at least the estimated 120 billion+ loss p.a. from small business rorts will go a long way in stimulating our economy, rorting bmw's with leather seats on the fbt for hauling bricks means the bloke pays an extra 5-10k per vehicle on avg for those leather seats meaning the economy gets an extra 5-10k of life blood, but only until the loan company/banks sequester it as well/invest it privately.

And given privatization a decade ago I'm pretty sure the rich now have their hands on pretty much all of the economy bar the handouts?

So the small percentage of wealth our country still has keeping it afloat/stimulating will soon filter it's way towards the rich where it will sit in limbo.

Then there's no welfare/handouts left to float the economy with, because it's all been removed and gone Gina's way to sit in limbo. We'll have to rely on middle class workers who will then become underwaged, replaced by unskilled visa work and will become low class workers within the next 10yrs. Then we will be China. It's quite simple really conservationism kills capitalism. Money needs to move for capitalism to sustain itself. How is that fact not get realized by conservationists? Do conservationists not understand simple economics?

Keating understood simple economics and mastered them it's a shame no one else has been able to ever since.

What do 'conservationists' have to do with your erroneous economics?

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by superyob

What do 'conservationists' have to do with your erroneous economics?

He does have a point, conservationists probably don't know a lot about economics....


Auslandau: Agree with everything you've said mate.
Though this thread has been more driven by Rinehart when it comes to the business side of it. And for good reason. She's one of those people that makes no secret of how greedy she is and how she doesn't give a damn about anyone but herself. I mean a tax free zone in the north? Please, pull the other one woman and stop complaining about having to pay your employees.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Lotte

He does have a point, conservationists probably don't know a lot about economics....

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Lotte

Though this thread has been more driven by Rinehart when it comes to the business side of it. And for good reason. She's one of those people that makes no secret of how greedy she is and how she doesn't give a damn about anyone but herself. I mean a tax free zone in the north? Please, pull the other one woman and stop complaining about having to pay your employees.

Well, yes, there are some people out there that are just not nice But, she still needs to pay her dues in taxes and does so. Should she pay more? Probably yes. The discussion should be more about: Is there room for a mining tax? but just not in the way it was weakly set up previously. That was a "Tax to please the people ..... and the miners" Cant have it both ways

[BHDOGS]

I would use clive palmer as a rich knob and apple and google as bigger tax frauds instead of small buisness's.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Well, yes, there are some people out there that are just not nice But, she still needs to pay her dues in taxes and does so. Should she pay more? Probably yes. The discussion should be more about: Is there room for a mining tax? but just not in the way it was weakly set up previously. That was a "Tax to please the people ..... and the miners" Cant have it both ways

Agreed, if the mining tax was set up correctly, it would be far more beneficial (and I'm on the side of, we should stop pleasing the mining magnates, and actually get money back for the resources in the country that belongs to all of us)

[cheap]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

*****.

Have you ever met her?

[BHDOGS]

If i had to meet everybody i hoped would rot in hell id be a busy man.

[BHDOGS]

Originally Posted by Lotte

Agreed, if the mining tax was set up correctly, it would be far more beneficial (and I'm on the side of, we should stop pleasing the mining magnates, and actually get money back for the resources in the country that belongs to all of us)

Correct everybody bitches about the mining tax if the liberals are so fantastic then fix it up and make it work correctly instead of scraping it and taxing high income earners and cutting services. But the miners would leave they cry all those tax dollars would disappear **** em let them go mine africa or some other **** hole till there resources are gone then they can come back and pay top dollar for ours. Instead of fair value like they should be paying now.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

If i had to meet everybody i hoped would rot in hell id be a busy man.

So what are you basing your "hatred" of her on?

Is it because she employes lots of people, some of which are low paid foreigners?
Is it because she turned a small fortune into a big fortune?
Is it because of the family feud?
Is it because she doesn't pay enough tax (but then again you don't know how much she pays do you)?
Did she run over your dog?

What specifically?

If you're basing your hatred because of what is reported in the media, it may come as a surprise, but the media have a way with manipulating impressionable minds.

And yes I have met her, she seems alright and considering who she is and what she has, is reasonable, intelligent and quite down to earth. I'm sure she wants to look after her turf, but don't we all?

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

I would use clive palmer as a rich knob and apple and google as bigger tax frauds instead of small buisness's.

And therein lies the problem. People like Apple, Google, Microsoft etc can sell a product for ...say...$500, and pay tax on $5 because they're set up in Ireland.

But they do it legally, therefore the system needs fixing.

[BHDOGS]

Originally Posted by cheap

So what are you basing your "hatred" of her on?

Is it because she employes lots of people, some of which are low paid foreigners?
Is it because she turned a small fortune into a big fortune?
Is it because of the family feud?
Is it because she doesn't pay enough tax (but then again you don't know how much she pays do you)?
Did she run over your dog?

What specifically?

If you're basing your hatred because of what is reported in the media, it may come as a surprise, but the media have a way with manipulating impressionable minds.

And yes I have met her, she seems alright and considering who she is and what she has, is reasonable, intelligent and quite down to earth. I'm sure she wants to look after her turf, but don't we all?

I base what i think of her of media reports i havent been invited to any millionaire partys latley so can only really judge her on whats reported if you dont like the reports maybe you should call up the papers and complain till then ill believe everything they say about her till she invites me to one of her partys i guess. As for the taxes she pays im assuming you dont know either unless you asked her when you met her which is possible. But ill assume you didnt so she could be a tax cheating scrag to i guess we will both just have to assume our different positions about her based on nothing but hear say and conjecture seeing as were both not her best friends. Any other queries?