Holden closure

[TC200six]

I bet there will be a large national cruise in 4 years time, just like I hope will happen when Ford finishes for the final time

[Auslandau]

Keep to TOPIC please ....... Holden closure, which has nothing to do with some of the above posts! Some directly offensive.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Nikked

http://www.toyotadesign.com.au/

You posted this link in reply to a post of mine in another thread not long ago, which prompted me to ask a mate of mine who works at Toyota about the role of their Aussie design and engineering department.

His take on it was that basically all they do is tweak the cars for different markets. Suspension adjustments, trim changes etc. They also may develop process improvements which may or may not be picked up by the company at large. They are definitely not designing cars from the ground up like Ford and Holden have done in the past.

The Australian content in the Camry is to be applauded, and from that perspective they seem to do more to support the local industry than Holden do with the VF. But at the end of the day, the Falcon and Commodore are the only Australian cars - they were designed here, engineered here, and predominately sold here, and I think its a damn shame to loose those cars.

If Toyota leave, we'll still be able to buy a foreign built Camry, and most wont notice any difference.

[Spammy]

What if everyone stopped buying meat pies tomorrow because of the knock on effect of Biggest Loser/masterChef etc? Then there would be approx 5000 people who make pies/make pastry/ deliver pies/ make pie warmers etc.

Unfortunately these people no longer have a valid industry. But the pie companies continue to make pies and give them to the few people out there who want to eat a pie. However the Government agrees to subsidise the pie industry to the tune of $1per pie so the manufacturers only lose $1 per pie rather than $2 per pie. Sooner or later the Government will grow tired of paying $1 per pie.

Is this arrangment doing a favour for the taxpayer or the people who work at the pie factory? Or is it just delaying the enivitable ?

Thoughts?

.

[borough]

Originally Posted by Spammy

What if everyone stopped buying meat pies tomorrow because of the knock on effect of Biggest Loser/masterChef etc? Then there would be approx 5000 people who make pies/make pastry/ deliver pies/ make pie warmers etc.

Unfortunately these people no longer have a valid industry. But the pie companies continue to make pies and give them to the few people out there who want to eat a pie. However the Government agrees to subsidise the pie industry to the tune of $1per pie so the manufacturers only lose $1 per pie rather than $2 per pie. Sooner or later the Government will grow tired of paying $1 per pie.

Is this arrangment doing a favour for the taxpayer or the people who work at the pie factory? Or is it just delaying the enivitable ?

Thoughts?

.

Any further money given to GM was just kicking the can down the road. Remember only last year a $275m deal was done for GM to stay manufacturing until 2022? Then GM come out like Oliver and say "please sir, can I have some more?". At least this time the government saw through the charade and said enough is enough and called their bluff.

The market has moved on from large RWD sedans, GM and Ford did not evolve to this change so they will stop manufacturing.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

His take on it was that basically all they do is tweak the cars for different markets. Suspension adjustments, trim changes etc. They also may develop process improvements which may or may not be picked up by the company at large. They are definitely not designing cars from the ground up like Ford and Holden have done in the past.

.

While the involvement isn't as high, its still refreshing to know that they were willing to set up that kind of centre here, they do design, digital modelling and clay modelling.


What's interesting though, an aussie helped design the Aurion, Nick Hogios...same chap responsible for the BA...

[Bossxr8]

He wasn't responsible for the BA, he was just a bit player and helped designed the XR front.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

He wasn't responsible for the BA, he was just a bit player and helped designed the XR front.

And Lowndes Green Eye'd monster...

[Adamz Ghia]

Won the WHEELS Young Designer Of The Year Award didn't he...?

[jpd80]

Simon Butterworth was design director on BA

Steve Park did AU and then came back for FG...I think....

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa...hold up...


Redbull Racing Australia was initially wooed over to Holden by two factors, 1) Ford pulling back funding, 2)Holden funding them.

But that's all just un-important details. When it comes to the effect of motorsport, its Holden winning, not X-brand. Holden fans see this...its that's the basics of this.

Don't forget, Holden fans are not just a recent phenomenon, they are fans of the cars of the past, the Torana, Monaro, EH...Gemini. Are you suggesting they should all abandon ship because of a factor of the times? Should us ford fans burn our GTHO posters and ride pushbikes because Ford shuts down manufacturing here?

And Holden, they are still a separate enterprise from General motors, the past year has proved this. Holden (and Ford) in Australia a clearly not integrated in to the world, largely independent except for reporting back running costs and receiving funding.

That's whats changing now...

But really, you can't blame Holden for what's happened. Holden is the local factories, the employees...the decision is from the GM brass the other side of the world.

And who am I (or even you) to ultimately decide or judge how people spend there money? If joe-blow wants to buy a Captiva that's there choice (problem?). People are capable of making their own decisions, and really, does it matter? People don't buy cars to support a charity, they buy them for there needs, at a price they can afford, and for what they like about them. Not what disgruntled forum lurker's think...

Got your facts wrong to start with. Ford did not pull funding. 888 wanted MORE so Holden came to the party!

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Got your facts wrong to start with. Ford did not pull funding. 888 wanted MORE so Holden came to the party!

99.9% they are correct...

Ford made a couple of request to Dane about the team, Dane refused, ford withdrew its funding. This was back when the GFC was looming, there was limited money available. Ford withdrew funding from all but SBR and FPR (DJR still got deals through those teams though IIRC)

As a result, 2009 saw the 888 cars run the Hogster badge...and Holden waiting with a wad of cash...


Of course, some people saw this a Ford marketing blunder, others seen it as a responsible reaction to global economic forecast...

[DanielXR8]

Peter M. De Lorenzo has an interesting rant about how dysfunctional GM management is and how "the car guys" like ex Holden CEO Ruess are being kept out of doing what they want to do.

Closing Holden would certainly fit in with the politics being played in the top management power games. Given how great a training ground Holden was for their top executives, you have to wonder.

Form your own opinion, but its a good read:

http://www.autoextremist.com/

[XWGT]

I read an article yesterday (need to dig up link) of local suppliers parts supplier who are very optimistic about now supplying into production lines in China and the rest of Asia from Australia. They started the planning nearly 5 years ago and see no reason why their business wont grow healthily along with manufacturing numbers in the Asian region.

I think we might be forgetting that a global economy took the production lines away, but that same global economy is opening up opportunities for clever operators across regions. We are part of what will become a massive auto manufacturing hub in Asia.

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by XWGT

I read an article yesterday (need to dig up link) of local suppliers parts supplier who are very optimistic about now supplying into production lines in China and the rest of Asia from Australia. They started the planning nearly 5 years ago and see no reason why their business wont grow healthily along with manufacturing numbers in the Asian region.

I think we might be forgetting that a global economy took the production lines away, but that same global economy is opening up opportunities for clever operators across regions. We are part of what will become a massive auto manufacturing hub in Asia.

Would that be Oz companies manufacturing in China perhaps .....in fact almost certainly.

[BENT_8]

During a transition period it would make sense to source parts from existing suppliers, however, when things settle, the costs to make parts here and send them to China will become prohibitive. Locals will either lose the contracts or relocate overseas.

[bigwil]

Originally Posted by Nikked

99.9% they are correct...

Ford made a couple of request to Dane about the team, Dane refused, ford withdrew its funding. This was back when the GFC was looming, there was limited money available. Ford withdrew funding from all but SBR and FPR (DJR still got deals through those teams though IIRC)

As a result, 2009 saw the 888 cars run the Hogster badge...and Holden waiting with a wad of cash...


Of course, some people saw this a Ford marketing blunder, others seen it as a responsible reaction to global economic forecast...

Wasn't one of the request to paint the cars blue, if yes pretty freaking stupid on Fords behalf

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by bigwil

Wasn't one of the request to paint the cars blue, if yes pretty freaking stupid on Fords behalf

Well I guess when the team that is wining for races is represent by a sea of red flags, Ford would want some form of visibility.


Irony now is...Team Red has the Blue cars


Interestingly though, I can see Dane jumping ship soon...with Holden focusing on HRT, and money drying up.

[Trump]

Speaking of Lang Lang:

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...219-2zmf7.html

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Nikked

And Lowndes Green Eye'd monster...

And the FPV badge if memory serves me correctly.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by bigwil

Wasn't one of the request to paint the cars blue, if yes pretty freaking stupid on Fords behalf

A few misconceptions regarding the T8 defection. Here's the deal -

T8 had a contract with Ford from the Betta Electrical days, amongst others things one clause in the contract stated that Betta Electrical had to remain as a sponsor, unfortunately that company went down the tubes and RD went and struck a deal with Voda which stipulated the cars must be red and as part of that approved livery, Ford lost significant coverage and were ****ed off.

If you dig around the net, you will find 3 different iterations of the early Voda livery as all 3 parties (Ford, Voda, T8) tried to come to agreement. Check the front bar changes. Then check the Ford coverage in the Betta livery to see how much they lost and Ford effectively payed for.

Ford also wanted to use their then star driver Lowndes (who Ford payed for) to launch the BF racer at Bathurst, naturally wearing a Ford driving suit, Voda's contract stated Team Voda drivers MUST wear Voda suits so despite paying CL's salary, Ford couldn't even use him hence Cortney doing it in the end.

As can be guessed, RD was NOT very popular at Ford for pulling the Voda stunt and being petulant about it.

Come contract renewal time, 4 Ford funded teams and a reduced budget wouldn't work, FPR are factory, SBR were producing results, DJR not performing and see above re the now very rich T8, fairly easy choice for Ford. However...

Ford offered both DJR and T8 a technical and panel package which RD rejected, saying he'd make his own. But it didn't stop, Ford were STILL paying CL's salary (rumored to be around a million/year) and RD still had the hide to do his 'Hog Ford badge' stunt, Ford retaliated with the T8aitor stunt.

During the 'Hog' year, T8 announced they were building a new Falcon, this was at a time when he was negotiating a deal with CL (and JW) who by now, was fairly entrenched in the halls of Ford. Once CL was signed up, T8 then announced the Holden switch, $3m for 3 years, reportedly this money was taken from the existing Holden funded teams sponsorship. That new Falcon became T8's first Holden.

[TC200six]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Speaking of Lang Lang:

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...219-2zmf7.html

Maybe the owner of the Phillip Island track could buy it, or someone else to run opposition to it.

If you look at it on Google Satellite, it looks like a great race track can be made of the existing track configuration.
https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Pe...ed=0CCkQ8gEwAA

If they want a new track to host the Australian GP, F1 track designer Hermann Tilke could make something out of what's already there.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Kieron

DJR not performing and see above re the now very rich T8, fairly easy choice for Ford. However...

Ford offered both DJR and T8 a technical and panel package which RD rejected.

Oh the irony...

[borough]

Holden have had the "We're here to stay" commercial on every other break during the cricket tonight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XZndLtBfoU

I find it really patronizing and condescending.

[karj]

Originally Posted by borough

Holden have had the "We're here to stay" commercial on every other break during the cricket tonight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XZndLtBfoU

I find it really patronizing and condescending.

I agree. I heard it on the radio today and thought it was disingenuous.

Admittedly, there probably isn't a good way to spin the offshore move to an Australian audience, but no ad campaign would have been better (and probably less damaging) than this rubbish.

[TC200six]

I saw it multiple times during that T20 Cricket match tonight.

The Holden executives should be signed up to play cricket as spin bowlers, the ball may not spin, but they would still win just from the spin that comes from their mouths.

TV ads have been banned for mistruth in the past. This campaign should also be pulled for claiming they (Holden) will always make cars "FOR Australia". It even shows a man sitting behind a computer with a rendering on the screen, suggesting that Holdens will still be Australian-designed. Misleading ad for sure.

[ryeman]

I got my Ford email saying much the same thing.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by TC200six

I saw it multiple times during that T20 Cricket match tonight.

The Holden executives should be signed up to play cricket as spin bowlers, the ball may not spin, but they would still win just from the spin that comes from their mouths.

TV ads have been banned for mistruth in the past. This campaign should also be pulled for claiming they (Holden) will always make cars "FOR Australia". It even shows a man sitting behind a computer with a rendering on the screen, suggesting that Holdens will still be Australian-designed. Misleading ad for sure.

Actually it isn't misleading. They are keeping their design studio here.

[TC200six]

Originally Posted by stevz

Actually it isn't misleading. They are keeping their design studio here.

Fair enough. But it won't be them (Holden) making the cars. Still misleading though.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by stevz

Actually it isn't misleading. They are keeping their design studio here.

R you sure they're staying....thought I read that was going to.....