Gen F HSV GTS Review, 0-100 in 4.4s

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Disappointing they didn't test an auto because it seems there's something of a body of evidence building up that auto's are quicker.




For a February publication all this testing must have been done in extreme summer heat.

To give you guys an insight into how much quicker the cars can be in cooler conditions I have posted comparitive figures from N.Z. Autocar's testing where data is avaiable.

Not saying which magazine is right or wrong...just that different cooler conditions and in the case of the GTS, an auto gearbox as well, can make a material difference.

I'd love to see the times that N.Z. Autocar would get for a Jag XFR-S then. If that's the time they got with standard XFR, the XFR-S also fitted with the new 8 speeder should cut all times down by a few 10th's. All things being equal, one would expect the kiwi publication to get better times with all cars, which it appears as though that's the case, but the missing part to the equation is an XFR-S's times that your kiwi publication would do. I suspect that it's bridge the gap between itself and the German trio compared to the Aussie times for some reason.

[GTP534]

As Rodge said, if FPV had offered a GT model over and above GTP/GTE that incorporated Ford's version of the features of the GTS, we would have been wrapt, even at that price point. There would have been a niche for it and those who could afford it would have gone for it.

I admire the GTS for what it is and does. I just wish Ford could have gone "blow for blow" with it. (No pun intended!)

Ford management is very conservative and while that proved to be a blessing through the GFC, it has prevented Ford from, as Cobra said, going the extra mile. Most likely they saw it as not worthwhile.

From my perspective though, I have a top-notch FPV model; it's a relatively simple car that I love driving every weekend! I'm more interested in how Ford Australia will tie in the performance models of its ranges, Fiesta/Focus and soon the Mustang, in the future.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I'd love to see the times that N.Z. Autocar would get for a Jag XFR-S then. If that's the time they got with standard XFR, the XFR-S also fitted with the new 8 speeder should cut all times down by a few 10th's. All things being equal, one would expect the kiwi publication to get better times with all cars, which it appears as though that's the case, but the missing part to the equation is an XFR-S's times that your kiwi publication would do. I suspect that it's bridge the gap between itself and the German trio compared to the Aussie times for some reason.

Perhaps they could get a 4.4 or thereabouts from an XFR-S and perhaps not, its all about traction and torque application in the 0-100 times, things the XFR-S may not do with any meaningful difference to a regular XFR in that speed range, who knows ? Interestingly their best time with the ZF HP28 6 speed gearbox for a regular XFR in testing in 2011 was 4.9 seconds so the new ZF8 shaved 0.3 seconds of that, not too shabby just for a gearbox change !!

Originally Posted by b0son

The only people it polarizes are those who insist on looking at the FPV with rose-coloured glasses. As you say, by almost any objective measure, the FPV is beaten. The GTS is quicker in a straight line, its quicker on a track, its better equipped, its simply a way better package overall. Of course, it comes at a substantial premium.

Why would HSV price it so? Simple, they don't rate the FPV as its competition for this car. They're gunning for those whose bank balance allows them to aim for an M3/C63. They've priced the car above the psychological 6-figure barrier ... that speaks volumes about their confidence in their product.

Meanwhile, FPV are pricing like they're going out of business..... don't hate on HSV for having the balls to build what their customers wanted, ask FPV why they wouldn't do same for theirs. The 5.0 SC V8 is ample evidence they had the capability, yet no GTHO after all these years.

Yeah I've heard the creative marketing propoganda from HSV that we don't rate FPV as our competition many times before. Up until now it was complete B.S. in my opinion...but now carries some validity IMO.

Originally Posted by Cobra

It's funny you mentioned that as I could have sworn that I had read somewhere that the latest E63 AMG was to be AWD just prior to being released, only to find that every publication of the vehicle I had read afterwards stated that it was RWD. I began to question my recollection, and started to believe that I'd been confused with something else. Since I'm too young to have dementia, it's a relief to find out I'm not losing my mind! So that begs the question, why oh why have Mecedes-Benz/AMG shafted the LHD-challenged market?

Something to do with the gearbox or driveline arrangement from memory didn't make 4WD sutiable for RHD, M Benz apoligises and says this will be the last time this happens and then reams us like a wounded bull for an inferior spec'd model. Hmmm, interesting business plan that one...

[Cobra]

It's dodgy Rodge, but is of little consequence to me what they do with their pricing as I could never afford one even if they were a third of the asking price. But we can all dream, hey! I can understand people who have more money but can't stretch the ridiculous asking price they charge us here in Australia/New Zealand but who would otherwise be able to afford the equivalent U.S. asking price being more than ****ed off though. I suspect that you may be one of those people, if you don't mind me asking?

[Rodge]

^^ As you probably gathered, I have some sensitivity to the issue

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

Hero car vs hero car. It seems some people want to compare the Gt Rspec to the GTS when it comes to performane figures but when it comes to price people want to use the price of of a normal GT to the price of the GTS, doesn't make sense. To be fair you need to compare the HSV top dog (GTS) to the FPV top dog (Rspec/GTP) in all aspects.

I don't believe I have compared the GTS to the RSpec but only to the GT. Yes of course it is about bang for buck and for what it is, maybe the GTS is great money compared to AMG, M or whatever ....... but the problem for me (not for others but putting my view across) ... is that HSV have FINALLY released a NEW car to eclipse the 6 year old FPV! That does not inturn make the GT BAD!

I might be standing here with my hand on it but I have given the GTS respect for what it is ...... but will also defend the GT because of what it is.

FPV gave everyone a ball tearer, HSV beater a few years ago. A 335kw 12 second car that wiped the smile off HSV finally. The discussion changed ..... those who enjoyed the HSV (here and everywhere) suddenly talked about the package. It wasn't about the package during the B series days ...... it was about the power of the LS.

A GT is a fair comparison in my eyes ...... and the price of a GT-P is 'in real life' is insignificant. RSpecs for over 100k on Carsales in not a true price ..... they have their hand on it. They are not available new.

Be great that FPV offered a 400kw what ever but if it came through at GTS pricing I could not afford one, many others around the traps couldn't and then it just becomes a school yard with VN to VE owners saying that HSV is better because they make a VF GTS ...... but they cannot afford to buy one. Bloody oath I will talk about price. Yes, there are some who think that 25k is nothing. But for every 1000 or so over and above, there are less people who can afford.

Great to hear people say that HSV have won! "HSV are better now than FPV" "So are you buying one then to enjoy?" "Oh no .... cant afford one ...... but they are so much better"

In a way I am happy that FPV have said no ...... if they produced a car that cost 100k, I couldn't buy it. I am not interested in bragging rights while many are. I do not care that FPV have the fastest bestest car if I cannot afford it or is out of reach for the majority. Might be selfish but thats how I see it personally.

I suppose it comes down to what you think is a hero car from the manufacturers. Is it all about just bragging rights or what is available to the general masses? Should the XR6 Turbo be the hero car because of bang for buck or is it just the biggest, fastest car no matter what price? In a few years time will it be the GT40?

I live with the GT everyday ..... except the last 3 weeks while its in the workshop ..... and will appreciate it even more when I hand back the XR6 rental! The difference (believe it or not) is astoundingly different. Yep, I will continue to enjoy it as I have the past 2 years, yes I will continue to defend the car against all the opposition it seems to attract from those who do not own them or appreciate them (on a Ford forum?) and will not be selling it in the near future cos I enjoy it just so much. It is NOT as bad as some make them out to be interior and feature wise (my exaggeration about vinyl seats and floor ... but that seems to what people think reading the comments). It is not the absolute BEST handling compared to some out there as it is heavy up front ..... but it is not the WORST by any stretch. It can still hold its head high compared to what is out there and IMO, looks sooooo much better than the VF on the outside.

Again, I appreciate what HSV have achieved as FPV cannot. I appreciate that others have a different point of view. I am still amazed they have the coin to do it and totally understand why FPV (Ford) cannot continue the race. I hope the FH XR8 will be priced to sell, look good and go well. I hope it has a few more buttons for people to play with as this seems important ....BUT

...... it still wont stop people here bagging it for not having enough something.

[nstg8a]

Well said auslandau



I jump in my xr8 that is a povo pack interior, and it's now 6 years old, but still a nice place to sit, If you look at it in isolation it's still a bloody nice interior.
Yes, I think the au lane interior is more user friendly, but it still looks like an au interior.
But if your the sort of person who always compares what you own to the latest and greatest then your either gonna be always unhappy with what you have, or poor because your always upgrading to the latest and greatest.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Well said auslandau



I jump in my xr8 that is a povo pack interior, and it's now 6 years old, but still a nice place to sit, If you look at it in isolation it's still a bloody nice interior.
Yes, I think the au lane interior is more user friendly, but it still looks like an au interior.
But if your the sort of person who always compares what you own to the latest and greatest then your either gonna be always unhappy with what you have, or poor because your always upgrading to the latest and greatest.

LOL .... Aint that the truth. There is always something that is the latest and greatest.

If price isn't the issue as it seems not to be comparing cars, why not drop the FPV from the equation and compare how the GTS stacks up against this? Only 20k odd more than a GTS ..... apparently chicken feed!

[BHDOGS]

And so the debate is ended with another resounding win to ford

[stazza]

Still talking about the GTS? Jesus...

I saw a black one the other night, ugly as hell. I parked next to it, the FG just looks so much tougher.

[fgpsi]

Originally Posted by stazza

Still talking about the GTS? Jesus...

I saw a black one the other night, ugly as hell. I parked next to it, the FG just looks so much tougher.

Did you bash up the owner ?

Hey stazza, this ones for you.. Check out this GTS interior.. Not even a few thousand K's old and the drivers seat has already shat itself

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by fgpsi

Did you bash up the owner ?

Hey stazza, this ones for you.. Check out this GTS interior.. Not even a few thousand K's old and the drivers seat has already shat itself

image

Has to be more than a few 1000k's? I thought the bolsters in the FG were fickle! Mine has done 45,000 and still looks good

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

but the problem for me (not for others but putting my view across) ... is that HSV have FINALLY released a NEW car to eclipse the 6 year old FPV! That does not inturn make the GT BAD!

I don't understand the 6 year comment. For half of those 6 years (ie, pre 335) the Clubsport was a comprehensively better performing car than the GT- it was faster in a straight line and was a more competent handler as well. You needed to buy an F6 to have a "fast" FPV. Then the 335 came along, took back the straight line crown (as childish as that sounds- and is) and the HSV fanboys leant on the overall package- much the same way the FPV fanboys did in the B series days when the LS motors had the upper hand. It's cyclical. To your point about the GT not being a "bad" car just because HSV's flagship is more capable, that's true, it's also similar to something I said a while ago about the 335 GT vs the N/A HSVs- just because the Clubsport isn't as fast as a GT, doesn't mean it isn't fast at all.

I think people are getting too distracted by the GTS in their FPV vs HSV play pen. The comparison should be GT vs Clubsport, in which case not much has changed since 2010. I'm tired of reading about GT vs GTS, they're not competitors.

[BHDOGS]

what exactly is the gts competitor it seems to be in a price bracket of its own not ford prices and not euro prices so really its up against itself. No euro man would ever down trade to a bogan holden

[nstg8a]

I thought the fg 315gt was quicker than the clubbie?

[fgpsi]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

I thought the fg 315gt was quicker than the clubbie?

No FG FPV V8 prior to the 335 engine was quicker than a VE HSV. The F6 however was quicker than anything Holden/HSV had to offer. Hell, even the standard FG XR6T's/G6ET's in auto were quicker than anything HSV had to offer.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by fgpsi

Did you bash up the owner ?

Hey stazza, this ones for you.. Check out this GTS interior.. Not even a few thousand K's old and the drivers seat has already shat itself

image

Probably worn from all his mates wanting to sit in it...

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

I don't understand the 6 year comment. For half of those 6 years (ie, pre 335) the Clubsport was a comprehensively better performing car than the GT- it was faster in a straight line and was a more competent handler as well. You needed to buy an F6 to have a "fast" FPV. Then the 335 came along, took back the straight line crown (as childish as that sounds- and is) and the HSV fanboys leant on the overall package- much the same way the FPV fanboys did in the B series days when the LS motors had the upper hand. It's cyclical. To your point about the GT not being a "bad" car just because HSV's flagship is more capable, that's true, it's also similar to something I said a while ago about the 335 GT vs the N/A HSVs- just because the Clubsport isn't as fast as a GT, doesn't mean it isn't fast at all.

I think people are getting too distracted by the GTS in their FPV vs HSV play pen. The comparison should be GT vs Clubsport, in which case not much has changed since 2010. I'm tired of reading about GT vs GTS, they're not competitors.

The 6 year comment came from the design and chassis (still cant get around my head around this one ...... bit like a wine buff explaining to me who just enjoys a red why one is more complex than the other) and interior bits. It harps back to the "HSV is a better car with a better interior and fresher design etc compared to a car that has been around for 5 odd years in various forms. And so it should!

The engine thing ..... yep ...... agree with the rest. GT335 has been winning (for want of a better word) for the past few years only and is all ups and downs in the cycle. With both pulling out of AU, Ford have said, that is out last effort. There is no more in the coffers as it hasn't been supported as we thought a car like this should have (as that was asked for by the fans ..... amazing that they actually wanted seat warmers instead)

I have noticed how so many have wanted to have an XR8 back. It is coming back and will be surprised if more than 15% of those who said wanted it, buy it. THe GT vs Clubsport? Yes, dollar for dollar is more realistic? Depends on which car people want to 'win'!

[Road Games]

I saw a dozen GTS commo's up North over the weekend .. One chap even let me take his orange R8 for a strap

If i had a lazy 90K i would own a manual one in a heartbeat , i love the rear end look especially the fat exhaust tips and the sound...

Ohhhh the sound !!

[timetaker]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

.................................................
I have noticed how so many have wanted to have an XR8 back. It is coming back and will be surprised if more than 15% of those who said wanted it, buy it......................... !

I agree with the XR8 statement.There have been numerous requests to Ford by enthuasists wanting a XR8 but you wonder indeed how many of them will buy one.If they are going to be priced around the same as a current GS I think the XR8 could still be out of reach for the majority of people who pushed for the XR8.Although if the XR8 ends up being about 55% or so of the cost of a GTS well ......it could attract decent sales.
There will be special editions of the FPV range this year before it closes.
There will not be a Ford competitor for the GTS.

[ebv8]

Ford or a tuning company should make an option for a Shelby Supersnake Falcons
just chuck the 5.8 SS into an r-spec FG2 or the FH XR8 and put a GT-HO badge on it
job done!

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by ebv8

Ford or a tuning company should make an option for a Shelby Supersnake Falcons
just chuck the 5.8 SS into an r-spec FG2 or the FH XR8 and put a GT-HO badge on it
job done!

Would also need to ditch the IRS for old faithful watts link pogo stick.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

The comparison should be GT vs Clubsport, in which case not much has changed since 2010. I'm tired of reading about GT vs GTS, they're not competitors.

This is kinda the point I was getting at, the GT and GTS aren't in the same bracket the only FPV you can really compare it to is the GTP being only 10k difference in RRP.

I know that the current FPV models are pretty heavily discounted now being almost 6 years old so the difference is going to be a bit bigger than 10k but people are apparently now getting GTS's in the low 90's so soon enough they will in the mid 80's and so on once the hype of a new model passes etc, far from being a car only people can only dream about owning and probably not far off what people were paying for new FG GTP's and R Spec's back in the day.

Considering the difference in performance hardware etc the GTS is very good bang for buck car imo and will more than likely go down as the best locally made performance car ever (depending if there is a series II). Minimal mods and they turn into a weapon with all the hardware to support it.

Btw this isn't FPV bashing either I like all brands of cars i'm just not a badge fanboy i'm more of a performance car fanboy I guess. The current FPV's are great cars, hell a couple weeks back I was even thinking about buying another F6 with the deals they were doing this month

[nstg8a]

I think they're already regarded as the best production car made here if we're all honest.

[stazza]

Originally Posted by fgpsi

Did you bash up the owner ?

Hey stazza, this ones for you.. Check out this GTS interior.. Not even a few thousand K's old and the drivers seat has already shat itself

image

See, THIS is what I'm talking about when I say Holden/HSV are cheap ****. Aiming for euro market with **** poor build quality. This car is $100k. For 100 grand you should expect far better quality than this.

Most of us here own cars roughly half of the price and wouldn't have even come close to the glaring and alarming number of issues the VF has had.

What's the point of fancy seats and gadgets for $100k if it ***** itself? Yes it has warranty but who wants to be taking time off work etc to take it to the dealer to get the problems rectified?

Everyone saying it is worth the price tag needs a reality check.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by stazza

See, THIS is what I'm talking about when I say Holden/HSV are cheap ****. Aiming for euro market with **** poor build quality. This car is $100k. For 100 grand you should expect far better quality than this.

Most of us here own cars roughly half of the price and wouldn't have even come close to the glaring and alarming number of issues the VF has had.

What's the point of fancy seats and gadgets for $100k if it ***** itself? Yes it has warranty but who wants to be taking time off work etc to take it to the dealer to get the problems rectified?

Everyone saying it is worth the price tag needs a reality check.

Once again, I think you need to step out of fantasy land if you think that Falcons are the benchmark for build quality and that Holden/HSV are rubbish in comparison, which is the angle you push a fair bit. I think those seats in the GTS look pretty bad too, but we don't know the story behind it (maybe a 150kg land monster had been driving it around?). I wonder if the bolster will collapse or the seat base will break like in FGs?

And your blanket statement about VFs having "glaring and alarming" issues is simply not true. Points for making it sound sensational though. It's easy to sift through the warranty threads on large Holden forums and nitpick problems with a brand new model. Hell, I remember my first FG in 08, the teething issues that thing had were ridiculous- but it was a new model so you can forgive it. Although I didn't see anyone on Holden forums calling Fords cheap crap because of the issues I was reporting here at the time. Same thing with BA, my God did those cars have issues when they were released. My new VF has exactly zero issues, which is actually surprising to me because I did expect it to have some dramas being a new model, but nothing. It was weird taking it for the 3000km check and not having any issues to report. But according to you it should be falling apart right now. One of us must be wrong, eh. In the meantime, instead of browsing Holden's warranty thread, how about you take a tour of our own. The FG issues thread has over 6000 replies, many of the issues that first came up in 2008 still occurring in '13 build cars. And I hate to draw upon the experiences of one of our members, but also take a tour of Farnsworth's FGII thread, the issues his late '13 XR6T has had are ridiculous. But when it comes to VFs, until you own one and have your own experiences to report (not sensationalising stuff from the internet, or the old "my mate" stories), your VF quality rants are a bit silly.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by stazza

See, THIS is what I'm talking about when I say Holden/HSV are cheap ****. Aiming for euro market with **** poor build quality. This car is $100k. For 100 grand you should expect far better quality than this.

Most of us here own cars roughly half of the price and wouldn't have even come close to the glaring and alarming number of issues the VF has had.

What's the point of fancy seats and gadgets for $100k if it ***** itself? Yes it has warranty but who wants to be taking time off work etc to take it to the dealer to get the problems rectified?

Everyone saying it is worth the price tag needs a reality check.

I disagree, the GTS is no doubt worth the price tag, we're talking about a 90k car that can match and even beat euro performance cars that cost over 200k.

As for the issues that the VF has I assume you're talking about the thread on the LS1 forum? If so you're blowing it way out of proportion, it only has around 300 odd posts and are minor issues.

[Rodge]

^^ Got a link to that thread mate ?

[duaned]

Well said Adrenaline. But haters will always hate. Forum members show no mercy with other brands on this forum.

[Sorted]

Anyway time to move this to the NON-FORD Section