VW cutting EV production

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Euro 7 emission standards were scheduled for 2025, now they have been pushed back at least 5 years.

Cheers...there you go....so even I would go ICE again if in the EU and hope supply, prices, tech & charging infrastructure has improved...for EV's.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Cheers...there you go....so even I would go ICE again if in the EU and hope supply, prices, tech & charging infrastructure has improved...for EV's.

The problem is the stupid Euros have canned their ICE products going forward, and are bringing unaffordable EV ****boxes to the retail customer

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kevino

2.0EB
Ford Escape
Tried and failed . Don’t know why had three as loan cars and they were are a nice drive. For my application fuel use is too high but for most not an issue.
Q Ford had about seven Escapes and an EV Transit in their facility last Saturday when I strolled around plus three Puma and 100,000 Ranger Everest thingys.

I’m sorry but the styling of the current Escape is just terrible and in contrast the
compact Maverick pickup is a gem and I think it would do well as a vehicle below
Ranger, a minim me if you like that attracts buyers weary of an ocean of SUVs
It truly craps all over Escape, don’t know why Ford even bothers with it…
The Bronco Sport SUV may be worth a shot too…

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

The problem is the stupid Euros have canned their ICE products going forward, and are bringing unaffordable EV ****boxes to the retail customer

This is the most concerning thing, Europe has locked itself into lowering vehicles emissions
and manufacturers see an opportunity to climb on board and pass on all costs to buyers but also
killing the vehicles that make the profits to support BEVs. Are they riding to a big fall in profits?

It concerns me that VW and Toyota now appear to be getting into bet with Chinese BEV manufacturers
as a workaround but I guess that’s not much different to what Ford did with VW electric vehicle sourcing…

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I’m sorry but the styling of the current Escape is just terrible and in contrast the
compact Maverick pickup is a gem and I think it would do well as a vehicle below
Ranger, a minim me if you like that attracts buyers weary of an ocean of SUVs
It truly craps all over Escape, don’t know why Ford even bothers with it…
The Bronco Sport SUV may be worth a shot too…

image

As much as I dislike Thailand Specials, the Maverick appeals to me because of the Ecoboost engine and the rego discount on utes.

Ignoring our market for the Maverick is an absolute joke given we have a fetish for dual cab utes.

You could slot it in under Ranger in that $30K-$50K price range.

The Maverick can tow 2,000 lb (910 kg) standard, with an optional upgrade to 4,000 lb (1,800 kg) when equipped with the optional EcoBoost engine, all-wheel drive, and 4K Tow Package option (which includes more robust cooling for the engine and transmission, a trailer brake controller and lower axle gear ratios)

I don't even have a trailer but sign me up for the 4K tow package, lower final drive ratios, 200KW+ and an 8sp auto, this thing would rip.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I’m sorry but the styling of the current Escape is just terrible and in contrast the
compact Maverick pickup is a gem and I think it would do well as a vehicle below
Ranger, a minim me if you like that attracts buyers weary of an ocean of SUVs
It truly craps all over Escape, don’t know why Ford even bothers with it…
The Bronco Sport SUV may be worth a shot too…

image

The last very last shipments of Escape has been landed in Aus.
Whats the NVH like in Maverick?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

The last very last shipments of Escape has been landed in Aus.
Whats the NVH like in Maverick?

Its based on the Focus C2 platform, so no doubt it'll be more car like than Thailand Special like, its unibody construction not body on frame like the Thailand Specials.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Its based on the Focus C2 platform, so no doubt it'll be more car like than Thailand Special like, its unibody construction not body on frame like the Thailand Specials.

So it’s a Focus ute

[olds]

Funny 20 years ago LPG was the future.
So much so some manufactures made a dedicated version ?
can hardly find a pump now.

10 years ago Diesel was the future, now that's being cut from production.

2022 Ev's Flavor of the month.
Now in massive sales decline.

Hydrogen is the smart future.

The smart manufactures around the world are going this way.

The cheap and nastie manufactures are going electric.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by olds

Funny 20 years ago LPG was the future.
So much so some manufactures made a dedicated version ?
can hardly find a pump now.

10 years ago Diesel was the future, now that's being cut from production.

2022 Ev's Flavor of the month.
Now in massive sales decline.

Hydrogen the smart future.

If only they could market public transport to sound cool. Problems solved.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by olds

Funny 20 years ago LPG was the future.
So much so some manufactures made a dedicated version ?
can hardly find a pump now.

10 years ago Diesel was the future, now that's being cut from production.

2022 Ev's Flavor of the month.
Now in massive sales decline.

Hydrogen the smart future.

Maybe for commercial vehicles but not for passenger vehicles - existing energy density of lithium batteries is good enough for passenger vehicles, 500km range.

Hydrogen fuel cells only make sense for something where weight is an issue - like on a truck.

Otherwise the end to end process is a WOFTAM:

- Create hydrogen from electrolysis (massive amounts of energy - brown coal in VIC?)

- Energy losses from having to compress and store it somewhere

- Energy losses from having to pump it into a truck

- Energy losses from having to pump it from truck into another storage tank at the servo

When you could skip all that bull**** and just plug your Tesla Model 3 into the wall at home?

Only viable for commercial vehicles, where having 30 tonnes of lithium ion batteries to have the same energy density of 1.5 tonnes of diesel doesn't work because you cop a 30 tonne payload penalty.

This is where hydrogen fuel cells suddenly make a lot of sense.

[olds]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

If only they could market public transport to sound cool. Problems solved.

They do in Japan.

Also have the best vehicle manufactures in the world.

[olds]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Maybe for commercial vehicles but not for passenger vehicles - existing energy density of lithium batteries is good enough for passenger vehicles, 500km range.

Hydrogen fuel cells only make sense for something where weight is an issue - like on a truck.

Otherwise the end to end process is a WOFTAM:

- Create hydrogen from electrolysis (massive amounts of energy - brown coal in VIC?)

- Energy losses from having to compress and store it somewhere

- Energy losses from having to pump it into a truck

- Energy losses from having to pump it from truck into another storage tank at the servo

When you could skip all that bull**** and just plug your Tesla Model 3 into the wall at home?

Only viable for commercial vehicles, where having 30 tonnes of lithium ion batteries to have the same energy density of 1.5 tonnes of diesel doesn't work because you cop a 30 tonne payload penalty.

Where does you renewable electricity come from in Aus.

Not from the china steel wind farms.
That carbon footprint is massive.
I built them.

[Franco Cozzo]

If you want an example of another way of using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine - Toyota has a great example of it at the moment:

2024 Toyota Hydrogen HiAce prototype review: Quick drive

Toyota claims hydrogen-fuelled ICE technology is a low-investment and low-cost way to introduce hydrogen as it’s building on existing internal-combustion engine technology. It’s also claimed to “dramatically reduce” CO2 tailpipe emissions and have a similar refuelling time as traditional petrol- or diesel-fuelled vehicles.

The company says hydrogen-fuelled ICE technology has a combustion efficiency that’s higher than a petrol engine and much closer to a diesel-powered engine. As such, it’s claimed to be best suited for high loading and high towing use cases.

Unlike the regular Toyota HiAce sold in Australia, which is now only powered by a 2.8-litre four-cylinder turbo-diesel, this hydrogen prototype is powered by a 3.4-litre twin-turbo V6 engine modified to run on compressed hydrogen gas instead of petrol.

This engine is currently used with petrol in the Lexus LX 600 in Australia, as well as the Toyota LandCruiser 300 Series in other markets. Toyota claims one of the few modifications made to the engine are the injectors, which allow it to run on compressed hydrogen gas.

The hydrogen-fuelled V6 engine in the HiAce prototype produces 120kW of power and 354Nm of torque. This is 185kW and 296Nm less than its petrol-fuelled counterpart. Drive is sent to the rear wheels only through a 10-speed automatic transmission.

The internal combustion engine is fed by three hydrogen fuel tanks similar to the ones used in the current Mirai hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicle (FCEV). The Mirai has a hydrogen capacity of 5.6kg.

Toyota claims the Hydrogen HiAce prototype has a range of around 200km. For context, the Mirai has an NEDC claimed range of 650km.

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-rev...ew-quick-drive

There's a vehicle using hydrogen like you would unleaded in an internal combustion engine, and its a piece of ****.

You can use it as a fuel cell to generate electricity for an electric motor, but then you take into account all the problems of making and storing hydrogen, when you can do the exact same thing with a normal EV that you just plug into the wall with existing infrastructure.

BMW tried the exact same thing in the early 1990s and again in 2007 with their Hydrogen 7, and it did 50L/100km on hydrogen and made a heap less power on hydrogen than the unleaded version of their V12.

[olds]

Solar is only viable because of government subsidies.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by olds

Where does you renewable electricity come from in Aus.

Not from the china steel wind farms.
That carbon footprint is massive.
I built them.

Can you explain why the wind farms produce so much co2
Aren’t they like a BEV

Lots of CO2 in production

But once they are operating sfa CO2


Let us know

I don’t know much at all about wind farms but they seem to be getting awfully popular

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by olds

Where does you renewable electricity come from in Aus.

Not from the china steel wind farms.
That carbon footprint is massive.
I built them.

Doesn't matter where our 'renewable energy' comes from in Australia, end of the day its way more efficient even if you generate your power from brown coal to plug your Tesla Model 3 into the wall to charge it, then it is to bother with the whole process of electrolysis and then the associated pumping/storage and transport losses of moving hydrogen around, only to turn it back into electricity in your car.

You're going off on a tangent - hydrogen is a waste of time for passenger vehicles.

[olds]

I own a diesel Territory.
A vehicle only produced because of a threat from Ford to pull out of manufacturing in Aus when it did not confirm to euro 5.
If you accelerate in this vehicle you add a couple of degrees to climate change.

[olds]

Originally Posted by kevino

Can you explain why the wind farms produce so much co2
Aren’t they like a BEV

Lots of CO2 in production

But once they are operating sfa CO2


Let us know

I don’t know much at all about wind farms but they seem to be getting awfully popular

10 tonnes of china produced steel just in the nose cone.

towers were made in Portland now made in china.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by olds

I own a diesel Territory.
A vehicle only produced because of a threat from Ford to pull out of manufacturing in Aus when it did not confirm to euro 5.
If you accelerate in this vehicle you add a couple of degrees to climate change.

Can you expand on your solar energy comments?

Solar is just everywhere now and my understanding is it is doing a great job for people with panels on their house and dragging the cost of electricity down.

But happy to hear alternative views.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by olds

I own a diesel Territory.
A vehicle only produced because of a threat from Ford to pull out of manufacturing in Aus when it did not confirm to euro 5.
If you accelerate in this vehicle you add a couple of degrees to climate change.

Might be time to put down the glass BBQ

[olds]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Doesn't matter where our 'renewable energy' comes from in Australia, end of the day its way more efficient even if you generate your power from brown coal to plug your Tesla Model 3 into the wall to charge it, then it is to bother with the whole process of electrolysis and then the associated pumping/storage and transport losses of moving hydrogen around, only to turn it back into electricity in your car.

You're going off on a tangent - hydrogen is a waste of time for passenger vehicles.

Sorry thought the thread was about cutting EV production not expanding it.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by olds

I own a diesel Territory.
A vehicle only produced because of a threat from Ford to pull out of manufacturing in Aus when it did not confirm to euro 5.
If you accelerate in this vehicle you add a couple of degrees to climate change.

Yes Franco and I both owned filthy lv/ lt diesel Focus

We have seen the light and now run in my case low emission euro three cylinder petrol and in Franco s case a relatively cleaner four cyl euro, relatively being a relaxed term.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by olds

Solar is only viable because of government subsidies.

I find it very cost effective but I'm not connected to the grid.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

Yes Franco and I both owned filthy lv/ lt diesel Focus

We have seen the light and now run in my case low emission euro three cylinder petrol and in Franco s case a relatively cleaner four cyl euro, relatively being a relaxed term.

Thats also because diesel is a WOFTAM for passenger vehicles too,

Case in point, the WZ Fiesta ST which replaced it does 6.5L/100km and makes the same amount of torque as the LV TDCI Focus from 1500 RPM (instead of 2000 RPM) with an extra 59KW of power, its 400cc smaller capacity at 1.6L vs 2L.

So to save .8L/100km you made 59KW less power and the same amount of torque 500 RPM later, with more expensive maintenance costs because the filters cost 2.5x more.

Add in now Euro 5/6 diesels have SCR and a $6000-$8000 DPF in the exhaust and its another expense added.

There's a lot of life left in ICE (internal combustion engine, not glass BBQ type), but diesel and hydrogen ain't it for passenger vehicles.

Nor is hydrogen a replacement for other usages like natural gas - it'll leak out of the pipes of existing infrastructure because of its tiny molecule size.

[olds]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I find it very cost effective but I'm not connected to the grid.

Yes that is the only way.

But drives up prices.

If you can afford to disconnect from the grid then you don't contribute to infrastructure.

If you choose not to contribute that's O.K

[olds]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Thats also because diesel is a WOFTAM for passenger vehicles too,

Case in point, the WZ Fiesta ST which replaced it does 6.5L/100km and makes the same amount of torque as the LV TDCI Focus from 1500 RPM (instead of 2000 RPM) with an extra 59KW of power, its 400cc smaller capacity at 1.6L vs 2L.

So to save .8L/100km you made 59KW less power and the same amount of torque 500 RPM later, with more expensive maintenance costs because the filters cost 2.5x more.

Add in now Euro 5/6 diesels have SCR and a $6000-$8000 DPF in the exhaust and its another expense added.

There's a lot of life left in ICE (internal combustion engine, not glass BBQ type), but diesel and hydrogen ain't it for passenger vehicles.

Nor is hydrogen a replacement for other usages like natural gas - it'll leak out of the pipes of existing infrastructure because of its tiny molecule size.

No body will make euro 8

The only ones that do are cheating.

And they have been caught before.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by olds

**** load wont make euro 8

The only ones that do are cheating.

Watch what will happen - we'll get close to Euro 7/Euro 8 and Bosch will suddenly come out with something they've been sitting on for years saying - oh look, we have a way to make diesel engines meet Euro 7/8 emissions regulations! How convenient!

They have form holding back technology they've created until things look like its coming to an end, then suddenly they've 'saved the day' again and the OEMs are beholden to their fuel injection systems.

[olds]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Watch what will happen - we'll get close to Euro 7/Euro 8 and Bosch will suddenly come out with something they've been sitting on for years saying - oh look, we have a way to make diesel engines meet Euro 7/8 emissions regulations! How convenient!

They have form holding back technology they've created until things look like its coming to an end, then suddenly they've 'saved the day' again and the OEMs are beholden to their fuel injection systems.

I will watch.

Dont think Bosch is the answer though.

Would be looking too japan.

certainly not USA

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by olds

Yes that is the only way.

But drives up prices.

If you can afford to disconnect from the grid then you don't contribute to infrastructure.

If you choose not to contribute that's O.K

Well there you go, I'm not contributing, driving up the energy prices and sending the country broke by eating out as well. Think I better not get that haircut.