Holden Commadore LPG review...with stats

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by TMC

They are saying that vapour injection is a simpler system than LPi. In reality it's the opposite. They didn't put LPi on it because it was likely more expensive, not less efficient, or more polluting. LPi would win on both counts over vapour injection any day.

Real world economy would be interesting, especially under a bit of load. But Commodores were never ever good towing cars in any form they've been made in.

The truth is that Holden looked at the technical issues required to make LPI work and quickly decided
that they didn't have or want to spend the time and resources on an emerging technology.
Ford had technical and supplier problems with EcoLPI that held the car up for a considerable period.

So in the long run, will customer satisfaction be improved by offering LPI over multi point vapor injection?
If we were talking retail sales, then I would say yes but Ford & Holden are clearly pitching to fleets.
So is EocLPI wasted on fleet sales, do fleet managers just want an LPG system that saves them money?
I say this because a lot of people are zeroing in on performance, the last thing on fleets minds...

[prydey]

i just don't get this place. ford bring out a state of the art system. members praise it up but then holden bring out an inferior system and suddenly the ford is over engineered and the holden system will probably sell more???

[Luke Plaizier]

As I understand it, Sequential Vapour Injection is more complex on a dual-fuel svi car because you have to alter the duty-cycle of the injectors with a complex interception unit, since the injectors need to be open longer when on lpg as compared to petrol.

On an LPi dual fuel the LPG feed pressure is regulated so that the standard PCM injector pulse width can be used on either petrol or LPG, so no pulse-width intercept is required. HOWEVER, that means you need a pump in the LPG tank with a pressure regulator and a return line for both unused fuel in normal operation, and for priming the lines to remove any 'gas' bubbles at startup.

On single fuel I reckon the playing field is levelled regards complexity. Is there any word on whether the Holden LPG solution is pressure fed like gas-ring converters, or pressure-fed like LPi? Because if they are pressure fed, then SVI could rightly claim to be less complex in a single-fuel application.

I'm just saying.....


Lukeyson

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

i just don't get this place. ford bring out a state of the art system. members praise it up but then holden bring out an inferior system and suddenly the ford is over engineered and the holden system will probably sell more???

Ford always brings out a state of the art product, what I'm saying is that's no guarantee of winning
sales over inferior product, especially in fleet markets.

If you consider that criticism of an over enginnered product then you are reading way too much into my posts.
I'm merely asking the question because Holden chose to go vapor injection, do you think they feel disadvantaged?

Let's just wait a bit before rushing off to decide either way, Ford and Holden both need to win sizable fleet sales
because if we don't know what ordering in the future will be like but as of this month, Ford has no major fleet orders.

[Luke Plaizier]

As always, it boils down to superior engineering and product vs superior marketting.

The prime example was Post GFC. The first thing Ford does is invest in new product for a product led recovery (LPG, Diesel, Ecoboost). The first thing GMH are seen to do is spend $3M on 'buying' T8......


Lukeyson

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Wost-case scenario is a six second wait for the fuel system to purge. That's *WORST CASE*. By the time you get into the car, make yourself comfortable, get your seatbelt on, fumble with the keys and turn the ignition on, the system would almost always be ready to go anyway. What's the big problem there?

Obviously Brazen needs to do getaways and every nano-second counts...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

As always, it boils down to superior engineering vs superior marketting.


Lukeyson

No, it boils down to who gets the sales.....and who sits on the side lines wondering why they missed out.

This time Ford needs to get in there with fleet managers and get those sales, don't sit back and let Holden
take the market away from Ford with an inferior product...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

On single fuel I reckon the playing field is levelled regards complexity. Is there any word on whether the Holden LPG solution is pressure fed like gas-ring converters, or pressure-fed like LPi? Because if they are pressure fed, then SVI could rightly claim to be less complex in a single-fuel application.

I'm just saying.....


Lukeyson

Basically, a carry over and a freshen up of their previous dual fuel system to single fuel,
the big change is the preheater that allows cold start on gas only...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Ford always brings out a state of the art product, what I'm saying is that's no guarantee of winning
sales over inferior product, especially in fleet markets.

If you consider that criticism of an over enginnered product then you are reading way too much into my posts.
I'm merely asking the question because Holden chose to go vapor injection, do you think they feel disadvantaged?

i wasn't having a go at you directly. my comment just happened to be directly after yours.

holden's product is largely unproven except for their PR spiel, which everyone seems to have lapped up as gospel and 100% fact.

the falcon is a superior product, end of story. sales figures don't determine which product is better.

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by jpd80

No, it boils down to who gets the sales.....and who sits on the side lines wondering why they missed out.

This time Ford needs to get in there with fleet managers and get those sales, don't sit back and let Holden
take the market away from Ford with an inferior product...

That 'no' was undeserved. We're saying the same thing by most accounts.

It sounds like you're swayed more by marketting than product here <pokes ribs> ..... so far from GMH marketting we've seen questionable numbers on distance travelled, economy numbers that can't be matched in the real world, and statements about uncompromised boot space despite still needing to have a separate spare tyre or space saver.

Ford need only spin the same web of 'marketting' on EcoLPI, Ecoboost and Diesel. They have the superior product by many measures.


Lukeyson

[4.0i_SiX]

Originally Posted by Brazen

The commodore uses less fuel and you don't have to sit there in the drivers seat waiting for the gas to pump like the Ford. I would choose the commodore over the falcon as a fleet buyer. Falcon is better for private buyers if they want a sedan.

As far as I know the Ford system primes as soon as you open the drivers door?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

and statements about uncompromised boot space despite still needing to have a separate spare tyre or space saver.

they could make these statements as the petrol sedan no longer comes with a spare tyre as standard either, so in that regard, there is no compromise, as neither get a spare. having said that, one of the reviews did actually state that the boot floor in the lpg model is raised a bit, so the 'no compromise' bit is still a bit false.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by 4.0i_SiX

As far as I know the Ford system primes as soon as you open the drivers door?

brazen may be speaking from experience as he now owns an ecoLPi ute.

even still, no one would be in that much of a rush that you need to start the car within seconds of hopping in.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by jpd80

but as of this month, Ford has no major fleet orders.

That is the vibe I've read from a few people I consider to be "in the Know" on here & that is a big worry. Do they at least have a few nice smaller ones coming through? IS Ford worried about this situation & what is being done to try & fix it? I know we all go on about advertising, but for these kinds of sales the work is done behind the seens & away from traditional media outlets, so we want see what they are doing in this area

[TMC]

Many times someone has said "the EcoLPi should be marketed a lot-no ones even heard of it much" or words along similar lines, someone comes back and says, "but do you know how much advertising costs- it's very expensive you know - maybe Ford can't afford it". My answer to that is, when a product by any manufacturer is discussed for production and timelines and costs are looked at to test it's marketing viability etc etc, a percentage of outlay should be put aside for marketing. If Ford didn't do this, well then someone should get a serious talking too.

Why go to the trouble of making an outstanding vehicle, miles ahead of the opposition, then run out of money right at the point that counts when it comes to sales - advertising. You can have the cure for cancer but if no one knows about it, what's the point.

Why design and build a car, without any ability or drive to market it??????????

[dimka100]

Gotta love al the Holden bagging … people you still seem to miss the point … its SALES numbers and profits that count, nobody cares who has more KWs or Torque numbers …

Holden has most likely spent very little money and resources of the development of this system VS Ford … Holden also has one massive advantage for the targeted market and it’s called a WAGON.

So I have a feeling Holden will end up selling a whole lot more LPG cars and if they invested less money in R&D it will equal profits … (unless they Fit up in some other area …)

[Luke Plaizier]

Yes, we agree dimka. You've missed the point about us getting the point.

Marketting vs Superior Product.

Holden - Good Marketting, Crap Product.
Ford - Crap Marketting, Good Product.


Lukeyson

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by jpd80

There was an increase in FG II's Recommended Retail Price which in turn affects the discounted price to fleets.

I think you'll find there was a substantial decrease in RRP for FGII- XT went down by almost 3 grand. Higher models dropped more than that.

[PoweredByCNG]

Guys, you have all missed two important points.

Firstly, which system do you think is more future-proof and has more scope for fuel economy and/or power improvements?

Secondly, even if Ford were to have gone the gas injection route, their result would still have been more torque and power than if Holden were to have gone the liquid injection route. That's because the GM HFV6 in its base form is a torque-less, underpowered, poor excuse of an engine to begin with. Even if Ford were to drop the displacement of the I6 engine down to 3.6L, it would STILL produce more torque than the GM HFV6 in 3.6L DI form.

[Polyal]

With regards to Ford over engineering that has been happening for ages and ethically its the right thing to do..but unfortunately in today's business world ethics has little in common with those who continue doing business.

So who is stupider? The one that spends more to create value that no one cares about or the one that spends less, potentially sells the same or but offers an "inferior" product.

Tough one..there are examples all over the place of this, look at GMH vs FoA small car policy. One has quality euro imports and the other has cheaper Asian derived cars...

BUT..thats why I have continued respect for Ford and the path they choosen, but sometimes its an unnecessary direction and it seems all for nothing. Its going to be very sad if this "ethical" standpoint they push is the cause of them to have sale/financial trouble.

As for the LLPG commy, did you guys read the cars guide? I try not to but of course they had the commy all over the front page.

Running comparison with a Skoda TDi, Petrol VE2 and a Mazda 3...they go as far as trying to discredit TDi by bagging out the "dirty" diesel pumps...seriously...

They mention the Ford system and use wording like "complex" as if its too much, or cumbersome...FFS

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Running comparison with a Skoda TDi, Petrol VE2 and a Mazda 3...they go as far as trying to discredit TDi but bagging out the "dirty" diesel pumps...seriously...

They mention the Ford system and use wording like "complex" as if its too much, or cumbersome...FFS

Ahh...So all those yummy mummy's that avoid me at school pick-up time are only doing so out of consideration to me for not wanting to spread diesel fumes from their X5's, ML's, Q7's, VW's...I feel less rejected now. I'm going to hand out boxes of disposable gloves.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Ahh...So all those yummy mummy's that avoid me at school pick-up time are only doing so out of consideration to me for not wanting to spread diesel fumes from their X5's, ML's, Q7's, VW's...I feel less rejected now. I'm going to hand out boxes of disposable gloves.

LOL...I can imagine the pulling of the gloves and snap as they go on now

For what its worth the running cost difference between the Skoda TDi and Commy LPG was $50 per year............$50....and the Skoda AFAIK is a more useable wagon.

[JG34JA]

Oh my goodness, in the article they have images of

Wagon + surfboards + LPG

their marketing genius knows no bounds! Oh Ford, why, why why?!~?!

[Hawkeye84]

Even if Ford stepped up their Advertising its not going to make any difference.
Whats killing them is the journos.
It seems that what ever Ford do is either not good enough or its too complicated...either way they find some sort of negativity with the car. The press is way more lenient with Holden and lets things slide.

I think the problem here is Fords (PR & Marketing) relationship with the journos and press....i think Ford need to show them some lovin'

Either that, or be a bit more strategic with who they give their cars to review

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

i wasn't having a go at you directly. my comment just happened to be directly after yours.

OK...

holden's product is largely unproven except for their PR spiel, which everyone seems to have lapped up as gospel and 100% fact.

the falcon is a superior product, end of story. sales figures don't determine which product is better.

Think about it from a fleet managers POV, how do they assess which vehicles they buy?
I guarantee you that they lap up PR spiel and also published economy numbers and all the costings
provided by fleet leasing companies, so maybe "best car" technically

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

That 'no' was undeserved. We're saying the same thing by most accounts.

Hmm, probably so...

It sounds like you're swayed more by marketting than product here <pokes ribs> ..... so far from GMH marketting we've seen questionable numbers on distance travelled, economy numbers that can't be matched in the real world, and statements about uncompromised boot space despite still needing to have a separate spare tyre or space saver

.
As mentioned above, think about this from a fleet managers perspective and what they are fed to make leasing decisions,
you'll soon see why it's vital for Ford to get out there and sell their EcoLPI and not just rely on past good name..

Ford need only spin the same web of 'marketting' on EcoLPI, Ecoboost and Diesel. They have the superior product by many measures.


Lukeyson

As long as the spin is aimed squarely at the sector doing the buying...be that retail customers or fleet managers.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by madmelon

I think you'll find there was a substantial decrease in RRP for FGII- XT went down by almost 3 grand. Higher models dropped more than that.

Yeah, long day and I got that round the wrong way, if you re-read my post and substitute eroneous increase with decrease in RRP,
it's then obvious that fleets also get a significant reduction on their price and now pay less for FG II......

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Polyal

LOL...I can imagine the pulling of the gloves and snap as they go on now

For what its worth the running cost difference between the Skoda TDi and Commy LPG was $50 per year............$50....and the Skoda AFAIK is a more useable wagon.

Oh Polyal, by the way just a bit o/t, you obviously read todays Carsguide, did you see pg.14, "Ford is looking back" in reference to some positive comments from Ford CEO Bob Graziano referring to an XR8 return. I just wish they would definatively say it's in or out so we can all move on.

[PoweredByCNG]

Guys, let's also reconsider the COST difference per unit comparing Falcon XT EcoLPi and Commodore Omega LPG. The price difference alone, even after heavy fleet discounting, would be enough to buy AT LEAST a year's worth of LPG, or the difference in consumption over the lifetime of the vehicle. That kind of swings the favour back to Ford...

[XtRmn8]

Bit of a comparison between the two engines based on the advertised figures.

3.6L LPG
Power: 180Kw
CO2 emissions: 189g/km
Consumption: 11.8L/100km

4.0L EcoLPi
Power: 198Kw
CO2 emissions: 199g/km
Consumption: 12.3L/100lm

Per 1000cc Comparison:
3.6L LPG
Power: 50kw/1000cc
CO2 emissions: 52.5g/km
Consumption: 3.28L/100km for every 1000cc

4.0L EcoLPi
Power: 49.5kw/1000cc
CO2 emissions: 49.75g/km
Consumption: 3.075L/100km for every 1000cc

While the FG makes a bit less power per 1000cc, it produces less CO2 emissions and is more fuel efficient if you take engine size into consideration. There is no point comparing torque.

How can the vapour system be more efficient?

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Oh Polyal, by the way just a bit o/t, you obviously read todays Carsguide, did you see pg.14, "Ford is looking back" in reference to some positive comments from Ford CEO Bob Graziano referring to an XR8 return. I just wish they would definatively say it's in or out so we can all move on.

Yes I did see that but again in Cars Guide style from what I can tell they are all rehashed comments..nothing new, then I get part way through and recall they start talking about the Kuga (papers is in the bin so i cant double check)