Ford Falcon four-cylinder..(My CommentHere We Go AGAIN!! This the last Falcon in OZ!! - Page 2

TMC · 11-12-2011, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

This is simply facing reality...Holden came across it when the venerable red motor died and had to be replaced with the Nissan six, as it would have cost too much to re-engineer an old engine to meet new standards...in that case unleaded fuel. I've got a feeling of deja-vu when I see the current wailing and nashing of teeth about the possible demise of the Ford straight six, pretty much the same that went on when Holden axed the old red motor.
The Falcon straight six has had it's day...it's a good motor, but how much longer do you pour money into an old design when there are plenty more efficient, powerful, and compact configurations out there that already easily meet all coming Euro emissions requirements?

I don't know if you can justifiably compare the situation with the Holden Black motor from the early 80's to the Ford I6 now. It would not take too much to make the I6 pass Euro V requirements, but yes it would cost. The EcoLPi already does as far as I know. The Holden straight sixes were not well engineered engines and they had a tendency to break internals. They were fragile things. Holden were lucky for there affiliation with Nissan in the VL. It showed them what a real I6 could be.

TMC · 11-12-2011, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

"Average Joes" don't matter to Ford, only prospective new car buyers and at the moment, approximately
75% of Falcon's sales goes to fleets and novated lease buyers - those are the ones being targeted by Ford.

"Average Joes" should matter to Ford as they set the climate that Ford have to compete in. It's all about image and market perception and yes "Average Joes" do buy cars. Ford need to concentrate on their marketed image and these sort of articles are meant to "put off" "Average Joes" so Ford has to counteract with good marketing that stands out form all the other marketed images out there.

Also those who control fleets and novated lease buyers amount to "Average Joes" who read reviews like everybody else, and they drink coffee and read newspapers and surf the internet like all the other "Average Joes" out there.

Ford should market to everybody, whoever and wherever they are.

2011G6E · 11-12-2011, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMC

I don't know if you can justifiably compare the situation with the Holden Black motor from the early 80's to the Ford I6 now. It would not take too much to make the I6 pass Euro V requirements, but yes it would cost. The EcoLPi already does as far as I know. The Holden straight sixes were not well engineered engines and they had a tendency to break internals. They were fragile things. Holden were lucky for there affiliation with Nissan in the VL. It showed them what a real I6 could be.

The Holden six was, along with the Ford six, an outstanding motor. It was an old "in and out on the one side" head design instead of a cross-flow which hindered outright power and efficiencies, but internally it was anything but fragile. Early ones were plagued with a fibre timing gear on the cam, but that was no big deal, as many modified engines went on nicely with the standard gear. The 12 port blue motor was a massive improvement in efficiency and power, and the fnal black motor was the pinnacle...alloy timing gear, EFI, stainless steel extractors, well ported head and bigger valves, tough rods. It was an amazing engine.
What it couldn't do was be easily re-engineered for unleaded, not cheaply anyway, so Holden went with the easy route of a Nissan six off the shelf while the V6 was designed.
Ford found it easier, already having a cross-flow head, which just had to be done in alloy, but even then it was plagued with a bad stroke-to-rod-length ratio that limited revs to about 4700...they just didn't make any more power past that level.

Ford and Holden both had excellent engines that were hammered by a changing world of unleaded fuel requirements, pollution laws, and increasing expectations of fuel economy. Ford was pretty lucky to be able to keep the six as long as it has by pouring money into it. Holden went the easier route and used off-the-shelf engines for the Commodore from other sources in the GM family.

I love the straight six Ford engine...but I'm also realistic enough and have seen enough well-loved engines from various makers come and go that I know it won't be around forever...

Franco Cozzo · 11-12-2011, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

What it couldn't do was be easily re-engineered for unleaded, not cheaply anyway, so Holden went with the easy route of a Nissan six off the shelf while the V6 was designed.

They should have continued that I reckon, imagine if they did and Holden had now ended up with Nissan's very high tech 6 cylinders they have now, stuff like in the 370Z.

RB30 from the VL to the 3.8L boat anchor V6 was a bit of a step backwards I think.

prydey · 11-12-2011, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

Elephant in the room..Mondeo v Falcon Ecoboost. The Mondeo Ecoboost has less power but still acceptable. When you compare what you get for the money, the Mondeo wins hands down. Is the Mondeo going to be the elephant in the room ???

enlighten me!

Road_Warrior · 11-12-2011, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

This is simply facing reality...Holden came across it when the venerable red motor died and had to be replaced with the Nissan six, as it would have cost too much to re-engineer an old engine to meet new standards

Absolute rubbish, and the "fact" pointed out by that article that the I6 can't meet E5/Ford won't spend the money is fundamentally incorrect and misleading. Observe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...passenger_cars

As you can see, the differences between Euro IV and Euro V relate to Nitrogen Oxides, Non Methane Hydrocarbons and Particulate Matter – the latter of which will affect engines with Direct Injection only. In addition, it is understood that the Australian Government will not be looking at introducing the full Euro V spec until well after 2016, if at all. The significant investment Ford made in the I6 wasn't to simply get it over the line for Euro IV...

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

Elephant in the room..Mondeo v Falcon Ecoboost. The Mondeo Ecoboost has less power but still acceptable. When you compare what you get for the money, the Mondeo wins hands down. Is the Mondeo going to be the elephant in the room ???

I doubt it, because I would imagine that Ford would offer the Ecoboost Falcon to fleets at a price point that would make it more attractive than Mondeo. Mondeo is an imported product and I would imagine they wouldn't have as much wiggle room for fleet pricing as they would on the Falcon.

jpd80 · 11-12-2011, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMC

"Average Joes" should matter to Ford as they set the climate that Ford have to compete in.

I'm sorry but you are sadly misinformed. The bulk of Ford's Falcon sales is to fleets and their managers.

Quote:

Also those who control fleets and novated lease buyers amount to "Average Joes" who read reviews like everybody else, and they drink coffee and read newspapers and surf the internet like all the other "Average Joes" out there.

The "Average Joe's" opinion only matters when they actually pull out their wallet and buy something,
until that time they are just a part of the 90% of people who dont buy Ford vehicles and in that respect,
Ford can pick and choose which vehicles ar best suited to maximize return on expenditure.
Fleet managers are targeted, contacted and product information regularly sent to them to keep them informed.
Generally, most fleet managers are well informed about most manufacturers and often discuss with reps.

Quote:

Ford should market to everybody, whoever and wherever they are.

LOL, you do understand the difference between Market research, marketing and advertising?

I'll give you a hint, the Falcon is not a car for everyone, therefore why should Ford seek to reach everyone?

Know your target audience, what they want, what your product can do, how much buyers will pay,
competitor's products strengths and weaknesses and why would someone buy yours instead of theirs?

There are more questions but you can bet that Ford has been up down and through the lot
And for those complaining about advertising, that costs a bundle so getting bang for bucks
is important and while we would like to see saturation advertising, that would destroy profit completely.

All we can hope is that Ford targets the correct demographics through the correct media at the correct times with the right message.......

FPV GTHO · 11-12-2011, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Absolute rubbish, and the "fact" pointed out by that article that the I6 can't meet E5/Ford won't spend the money is fundamentally incorrect and misleading. Observe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...passenger_cars

As you can see, the differences between Euro IV and Euro V relate to Nitrogen Oxides, Non Methane Hydrocarbons and Particulate Matter – the latter of which will affect engines with Direct Injection only. In addition, it is understood that the Australian Government will not be looking at introducing the full Euro V spec until well after 2016, if at all. The significant investment Ford made in the I6 wasn't to simply get it over the line for Euro IV...

Yes, when the I6 goes out of production it wont be emissions killing it. It will be the need to plug into IMO a combination of Mustang and CD4 engineering modules. Crash test regulations will also be putting pressure.

jpd80 · 11-12-2011, 02:43 PM

Ford would not have allowed the return of the I-6 without being sure that it could complete
this product cycle and any proposed increases in emission regulation and as stated by Ford
previously, that work can be done and involves stuff like:
- guaranteeing emissions compliance for 160,000 km not 100,000 km
- that involves using low sulfur oil to protect emission equipment
- it also involves maintenance of emission equipment and replacement if required.

**Fordman1** · 11-12-2011, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Know your target audience, what they want, what your product can do, how much buyers will pay,
competitor's products strengths and weaknesses and why would someone buy yours instead of theirs?

There are more questions but you can bet that Ford has been up down and through the lot
And for those complaining about advertising, that costs a bundle so getting bang for bucks
is important and while we would like to see saturation advertising, that would destroy profit completely.

All we can hope is that Ford targets the correct demographics through the correct media at the correct times with the right message.......

Very good !!

This is just what Ford Australia are trying to do !!

1TUFFUTE · 11-12-2011, 04:04 PM

the way i see it ford are doing very well in aus...sticking to their plans and building good quality cars and trying to expand these very good class leading in most cases to all segments. As for the mighty falcon...they r carefully managing it as its still a class leading product well able to stand on its own around the world....but they know they have certain things against it like media...holden and its size....to me they r managing there situation superbly.

TMC · 11-12-2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

I'm sorry but you are sadly misinformed. The bulk of Ford's Falcon sales is to fleets and their managers.

The "Average Joe's" opinion only matters when they actually pull out their wallet and buy something,
until that time they are just a part of the 90% of people who dont buy Ford vehicles and in that respect,
Ford can pick and choose which vehicles ar best suited to maximize return on expenditure.
Fleet managers are targeted, contacted and product information regularly sent to them to keep them informed.
Generally, most fleet managers are well informed about most manufacturers and often discuss with reps.

LOL, you do understand the difference between Market research, marketing and advertising?

I'll give you a hint, the Falcon is not a car for everyone, therefore why should Ford seek to reach everyone?

Know your target audience, what they want, what your product can do, how much buyers will pay,
competitor's products strengths and weaknesses and why would someone buy yours instead of theirs?

There are more questions but you can bet that Ford has been up down and through the lot
And for those complaining about advertising, that costs a bundle so getting bang for bucks
is important and while we would like to see saturation advertising, that would destroy profit completely.

All we can hope is that Ford targets the correct demographics through the correct media at the correct times with the right message.......

I don't necessarily disagree with the bulk of what you are saying. Advertising is expensive is a given. We may be talking about two related but different things here. I'm talking about the "Ford" brand as an "intangible". If it is not marketed much people begin to forget who you are. That is where consistent marketing is essential.

In regards to specific models/ranges etc you have to be more targeted.

Does Ford only want to sell Falcon's (a small part of the Ford range) only to fleets and government buyers??????

What I'm saying is the way the wider community views the intangible (the Ford name) is how those in buying fleets will view it. There is no difference.

jpd80 · 11-12-2011, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMC

What I'm saying is the way the wider community views the intangible (the Ford name) is how those in buying fleets will view it. There is no difference.

Well that's your opinion and by no means a fact, you're trying to link a series of negative assumptions
and string them into fact when there's no empirical data to support any of it. The market is that fragmented
that people have massive choices from no less than 60 brands, that Ford still captures 9-10% of the market,
is third behind Holden and Toyota speaks volumes of the positive attitude towards Ford.

Clearly, you have no idea of how well Ford is performing under the circumstance of restricted product volume,
if FoE and Thailand had been able to supply more volume, sales would have been even higher, it's that simple.
Thailand production of Focus, Mondeo, Kuga and full roll out of T6 Ranger can't come quick enough...

I'm not trying to convince you but things are not nearly as bad as you perceive,
all I can say is keep your chin up and stop looking in the past, look to the future.

Everytime I see this i smile

AC · 11-12-2011, 06:29 PM

Does anyone know if the Ecoboost4 will be FWD or RWD ?

I haven't read anything yet to state either way...

prydey · 11-12-2011, 06:37 PM

that engine bay should be a big clue. doesn't look like an east/west engine to me.

its been discussed already and is definitely RWD.

Venomous1 · 11-12-2011, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC

Does anyone know if the Ecoboost4 will be FWD or RWD ?

I haven't read anything yet to state either way...

It is RWD. First ever Ecoboost RWD.

Bossxr8 · 11-12-2011, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC

Does anyone know if the Ecoboost4 will be FWD or RWD ?

I haven't read anything yet to state either way...

Its pretty obvious isn't it. Falcon is a RWD vehicle and would require absolutely massive investment to change that to FWD on the current platform. It is what it is, and you would have to start from scratch to change that, would be too much work to make the current platform FWD, if its even do-able without spending more than what a new platform would cost.

pottery beige · 11-12-2011, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Well that's your opinion and by no means a fact, you're trying to link a series of negative assumptions
and string them into fact when there's no empirical data to support any of it. The market is that fragmented
that people have massive choices from no less than 60 brands, that Ford still captures 9-10% of the market,
is third behind Holden and Toyota speaks volumes of the positive attitude towards Ford.

Clearly, you have no idea of how well Ford is performing under the circumstance of restricted product volume,
if FoE and Thailand had been able to supply more volume, sales would have been even higher, it's that simple.
Thailand production of Focus, Mondeo, Kuga and full roll out of T6 Ranger can't come quick enough...

I'm not trying to convince you but things are not nearly as bad as you perceive,
all I can say is keep your chin up and stop looking in the past, look to the future.

Everytime I see this i smile

image

that pic just screams... let me at that pos 3.0.....

Road_Warrior · 11-12-2011, 07:13 PM

Whilst I am no fan of the concept of a 4 cylinder donk in a Falcon, I hope this thing hoses that poxy 3.0 in the Commodore and gets some runs on the board for the Falcon.

TMC · 11-12-2011, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Well that's your opinion and by no means a fact, you're trying to link a series of negative assumptions
and string them into fact when there's no empirical data to support any of it. The market is that fragmented
that people have massive choices from no less than 60 brands, that Ford still captures 9-10% of the market,
is third behind Holden and Toyota speaks volumes of the positive attitude towards Ford.

Clearly, you have no idea of how well Ford is performing under the circumstance of restricted product volume,
if FoE and Thailand had been able to supply more volume, sales would have been even higher, it's that simple.
Thailand production of Focus, Mondeo, Kuga and full roll out of T6 Ranger can't come quick enough...

I'm not trying to convince you but things are not nearly as bad as you perceive,
all I can say is keep your chin up and stop looking in the past, look to the future.

Everytime I see this i smile

image

Yeah, you're probably right. I hope so.

I'd love to own an Ecoboost Ford someday. I think it's going to be fantastic. I want the 3.5L V6 over here in a Territory. It should be called the "Ecoblast"

jpd80 · 11-12-2011, 08:22 PM

You know, I just tried to do a search on the 3.0 SIDI Omega 0-100 kph time,
it's as though all reference has been deleted from the web....

The best the 3.0 can muster is 290 nm but down low that Ecoboost is gonna feel like the 3.6 SIDI to Holden drivers,
60 Kgs lighter, more low end torque, wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of fence sitters fall the falcon's way this time..

I can't believe some still think the Ecoboost is a FWD Falcon.....

Maybe they should have done a frontie with Territory hubs and dead rear axle to be real provocative,
I recon that would have cut another 50-60 Kg out the old bird....he he let's set the rumor mill going....

Falc'man · 11-12-2011, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Whilst I am no fan of the concept of a 4 cylinder donk in a Falcon, I hope this thing hoses that poxy 3.0 in the Commodore and gets some runs on the board for the Falcon.

Sisi 3.0 is deep into the 8s to 100.

I can just imagine the Drive comparo: G6E Ecoboost VS Calais Sisi 3.6.

"New Ecoboost 2.0 is clearly not up to he job in this large car sector"

GK · 11-12-2011, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

that engine bay should be a big clue. doesn't look like an east/west engine to me.

its been discussed already and is definitely RWD.

Indeed! LOL!

GK

2011G6E · 11-12-2011, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Everytime I see this i smile

image

Every time I see that I slap myself in the head and say "Why the hell didn't I wait another year instead of buying the G6E back in March when I did...?"

Brazen · 11-12-2011, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Every time I see that I slap myself in the head and say "Why the hell didn't I wait another year instead of buying the G6E back in March when I did...?"

I wouldnt slap yourself too hard, you have an engine with more power, more torque, faster and from all accounts smoother and quieter.

1TUFFUTE · 11-12-2011, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Every time I see that I slap myself in the head and say "Why the hell didn't I wait another year instead of buying the G6E back in March when I did...?"

yeah you cant complain that you want the best thats coming out when you allready have the best on the market haha

jpd80 · 11-12-2011, 11:08 PM

The key here is to add more sales with new buyers, not replacing existing I-6 sales.

Ford promised us something different, a game changer, well now we got one
and even though it's controversial, at least the press is talking about Ford, not Holden.

As I said, the press is about to go 180 degrees on Ford, I think Holden is under the pump.....

Been checking out the USA and Ecoboost is going into FWd Edge (1800 Kg) and FWD Explorer (2050 Kg)
I wonder, if RWD Territory could drop 60 Kg with Ecoboost 2.0 to 1910 Kg then perhaps Ford has a nice
cheap petrol 9 litres/100 km soccer mom wagon and engage that 3.0SIDI Captiva ...

vztrt · 11-12-2011, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Been checking out the USA and Ecoboost is going into FWd Edge (1800 Kg) and FWD Explorer (2050 Kg)
I wonder, if RWD Territory could drop 60 Kg with Ecoboost 2.0 to 1910 Kg then perhaps Ford has a nice
cheap petrol 9 litres/100 km soccer mom wagon and engage that 3.0SIDI Captiva ...

FoA have stated that the ecoboost engine isn't for the terri. Weather its not up to the task for the heavier territory, or they think there isn't enough sales I don't know. But I do remember them ruling it out early on.

FPV GTHO · 12-12-2011, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Its pretty obvious isn't it. Falcon is a RWD vehicle and would require absolutely massive investment to change that to FWD on the current platform. It is what it is, and you would have to start from scratch to change that, would be too much work to make the current platform FWD, if its even do-able without spending more than what a new platform would cost.

Whatever it would eventually cost, they have the 240hp Mondeo Ecoboost. It would only take a few minutes into developing a FWD Falcon before it suddenly became more expensive to continue rather than importing the higher power Mondeo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Sisi 3.0 is deep into the 8s to 100.

I thought the original 180kw 3.6 was that slow, ive seen the 3L as a 9s car.

AC · 12-12-2011, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venomous1

It is RWD. First ever Ecoboost RWD.

That's pretty cool, not many 4cyl RWD around anymore. I think the only RWD 4 at the moment is the MX5, the IS Lexus is a 6 iirc. But both are small rwd cars

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Its pretty obvious isn't it. Falcon is a RWD vehicle and would require absolutely massive investment to change that to FWD on the current platform. It is what it is, and you would have to start from scratch to change that, would be too much work to make the current platform FWD, if its even do-able without spending more than what a new platform would cost.

Yeah, I thought the same after I posted.
Makes sense.