Why so few old Falcons remaining compared to Commodores?

[None-ya]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Everyone is wrong, we all know its because the superior engine option of the mighty 3.8L Ecotec V6

Had this old bloke customer with a VN wagon come into my workshop for a rear wiper motor, things odometer stopped working at 727,000km, this was in 2015.

The guy had been all around Australia in it with his family, had done two gearboxes and still on its original Buick V6, the predecessor to the mighty Ecotec, I reckon he's probably pushing up daisies now he was old AF back then, VN wagon is still probably going.

Mang till ya bang, or just randomly bang going down th highway, or apon (?) Start up at under 70k.

[None-ya]

Id say rusty killed alot, head gaskets would have killed some more, scrap'ies (never looks right however I spell it lol) would have killed a few, young roster heads followed by 'power junkies ' ( if it lets me say it )

[My32Doors]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...bedeaf66&ei=46

[Sprintey]

What a good article, they know about comfort, , simplicity, reliability and common parts!

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

VB to VL rusted as bad as Falcon XF-EL, although not quite as bad as XD-XE.

Holden changed their assembly procedures at VN & from then onwards were markedly better in the rust department than the equivalent Ford.

Find any VN-VS these days, it might have dead trim & some of the electrics & mechanicals, but their bodies do seem have stood the test of time. Have a look in wrecking yards, it's quite noticeable.

You're are correct about the enthusiast market, Ford took a 10-12 year break from anything remotely resembling a performance car, while HDT & HSV had a field day. This shows up in desirability & resale values of cars of that era.

Dr Terry

The biggest rust buckets were the XA-B-C Falcons shocking even from new such was starting.

I thought from VB Commodore they were using a much better steel, only the windscreen became a problem area after the old one was pulled out and took the paint off, then the problems kicked off !

Then again back in the 1960's to say 1980 we had highways that were the type that you had to get 2 wheels off onto the dirt when a car came the other way, so the left side coped a lot of mud etc and many % people did not bother to wash their cars well or parked them outside.

More Dirt roads as well years ago and dirt gets in the bottom of the doors and then rain and due from sitting out side makes more rust and the bottom of the doors would block up, i would have to poke a stick up the drain holes many a time as you would hear water splashing when shutting the door.

Look at how wide the roads are now ! no chipped windscreen once a month anymore nowadays.

I just believe that people back from before 1990's did not look after a car as well as some do nowadays.

I think more people have learnt to look after their car nowadays because you have to Radiator coolant for one or else ! many more know this nowadays ! before such was no an issue !
So i hear people claim that the VL 3.0L was a crap engine ? i reject that and put such down to not servicing them correctly and not bleeding the radiator is a big mistake many made.

Falcons got better with rust from XD on and were the much the same to the end, maybe a bit better.

But i believe that the steel from 1972 to 77 with ford and Valiant was that Holden got first dibs regarding steel and Ford came 2ed but had to import some times and Valiant's came 3rd so they had to get steel imported at times and this was old crap steel that was melted down to make new steel, but within this was small % of rust that was within the brew, even tho they had skimmed off all of the crud from the top ! Am i correct for them years, maybe they got the art work better regards such. The VB Commodores got a new formula for steel they claim and coating and a smash repair dude i know well said that welding this steel was harder than before.

[fatgas]

Ford never really sorted their panel prep and paint processes in Australia, whereas Holden to their credit pulled the digit out with VN and they didn't look back. The only Commodores VN and newer I see that are rusting are the ones that are poorly repaired after a shunt.

[BENT_8]

Up until VN production Holden only dipped the bodies to the waist line and because they went through the dip on a conveyor the wave and wake created a void around the rear windscreen base which rusted out, this processed changed with VN and the whole body was dipped.
Falcond prior to EA were prone to rust in the plenum which would flood the front floors and required substantial work to repair in removing windscreen, dash, gaurds, bonnet and then cut open.
I had a beautiful XE in 2000 but couldnt take it out in winter for this reason.

Obviously E series suffered head gasket issues that really affected not only daily driven cars but limited the used engines available in wreckers too.
The funny thing is, they fixed that in AU and wreckers couldnt give them away.

I spoke to a mate who owned a used car yard back in 07 and he said every manual Falcon he could get his hands on went up north to indigenous communities as they loved them and paid way overs to what could be sold for down here, he said lots of yards did the same. Probably plenty still active albeit unregistered.
I got a nice XE S pak off him that day as it was auto and worth nothing, gave it a straight gas conversion and sold it to a FF member.

So there are a few factors at play.

[None-ya]

Originally Posted by None-ya

Id say rusty killed alot, head gaskets would have killed some more, scrap'ies (never looks right however I spell it lol) would have killed a few, young roster heads followed by 'power junkies ' ( if it lets me say it )

Forgot to mention taxis

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Up until VN production Holden only dipped the bodies to the waist line and because they went through the dip on a conveyor the wave and wake created a void around the rear windscreen base which rusted out, this processed changed with VN and the whole body was dipped.
Falcond prior to EA were prone to rust in the plenum which would flood the front floors and required substantial work to repair in removing windscreen, dash, gaurds, bonnet and then cut open.
I had a beautiful XE in 2000 but couldnt take it out in winter for this reason.

Obviously E series suffered head gasket issues that really affected not only daily driven cars but limited the used engines available in wreckers too.
The funny thing is, they fixed that in AU and wreckers couldnt give them away.

I spoke to a mate who owned a used car yard back in 07 and he said every manual Falcon he could get his hands on went up north to indigenous communities as they loved them and paid way overs to what could be sold for down here, he said lots of yards did the same. Probably plenty still active albeit unregistered.
I got a nice XE S pak off him that day as it was auto and worth nothing, gave it a straight gas conversion and sold it to a FF member.

So there are a few factors at play.

Yes they play cards in the headlights until the battery goes flat, then push start the car the next day. so automatic cars are not wanted out back by them at all.

[XR Martin]

Regarding XF/XG/XH utes not surviving compared to Holden utes, remember that the Falcons have always been used for work, where the Commodores have usually been for play.
Holden even tried a 1 tonner VZ and I think they only sold a few hundred.

Sure they rusted but I've been through heaps of wreckers and rarely did I see one scrapped solely due to rust.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Regarding XF/XG/XH utes not surviving compared to Holden utes, remember that the Falcons have always been used for work, where the Commodores have usually been for play.
Holden even tried a 1 tonner VZ and I think they only sold a few hundred.

I think you'll find that the VG-VS Utes were used much more as a workhorse than the later VU-VZ versions because the latter had IRS, while the early ones had a live rear axle.

They made 1 Tonners in both VY & VZ & they sold many 1,000s in 2WD, but the AWD version was VZ only & it sold in much smaller numbers.

Dr Terry

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Regarding XF/XG/XH utes not surviving compared to Holden utes, remember that the Falcons have always been used for work, where the Commodores have usually been for play.

Some still are.
Genset and granite to Beechworth today 4 new tyres on the way home.

[janddbone]

Do not discount the thousands of Falcons used as race cars over the years having a significant effect.

[MrZ]

Originally Posted by janddbone

Do not discount the thousands of Falcons used as race cars over the years having a significant effect.

Hmm, considering Ford sold around 70-80,000 Falcons per year in the late 90s, I'm not sure if a few thousands of those used for racing would have much effect.
Maybe the fact that the Falcons were used as taxis while the Commodores weren't might have some effect.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by janddbone

Do not discount the thousands of Falcons used as race cars over the years having a significant effect.

There's not to many HQ Holden sedans left thanks to the HQ racing series.

[prktkljokr]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

There's not to many HQ Holden sedans left thanks to the HQ racing series.

They actually made 467,558 HQ's, it was the best selling model Holden ever made, the next closest was the EH with 256,959, I still see a fair few good HQ's around

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by prktkljokr

They actually made 467,558 HQ's, it was the best selling model Holden ever made, the next closest was the EH with 256,959, I still see a fair few good HQ's around

Correct, I still see plenty of HQ's getting around, not bad since they were considered a rust bucket.

[jpd80]

In some instances, scrapping a vehicle that’s become unroadworthy may yield more in return than trying to fix it.
I remember seeing a 2020 price of $6,600 for rebuilding ZF6HP. and think it must surely be more now…

[Franco Cozzo]

Same with Hyundai Excels, when was the last time someone saw one of those things? The excel racing series took them all from us

Saw there's a Mazda RX8 racing series, thats the next nugget car thats going to completely disappear - those things would be stacked 10 high at the tip otherwise.

Only thing they're good for is LS conversions.

[XR Martin]

G8 220 and in the same carpark a DC LTD - both well looked after.
Yesterday a burgundy EL XR6.
Day before a unrestored XB GS. (See it occasionally getting around)
There's also an old duck getting around in unrestored ZK Fairlane near me.

[prktkljokr]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Same with Hyundai Excels, when was the last time someone saw one of those things? The excel racing series took them all from us

No great loss

[Rallye Sport]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Same with Hyundai Excels, when was the last time someone saw one of those things? The excel racing series took them all from us

That and speedway, juniors car of choice at the moment.
Before the Excels it was the Daihatsu Charade, when I had my GTti race car the only way to get parts was to buy whole cars, even then you had to be quick, the speedway guys were buying up and hoarding everything.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by prktkljokr

They actually made 467,558 HQ's, it was the best selling model Holden ever made, the next closest was the EH with 256,959, I still see a fair few good HQ's around

I believe that the VE Commodores surpassed the HQs build total. I don't have exact figures, but around 350,000 were sold in Australia with another 170,000 exported. That's approximately 520,000 in total.

Dr Terry

[Trendseeker]

There are a few different figures around on Holden build numbers. Drive and News seem to agree on the HQ as the biggest selling Holden and the VT as the biggest selling Commodore.

Drive said:
“485,650: The biggest selling Holden of all time, the HQ Kingswood, made from 1971 to 1974.
303,895: The biggest selling Commodore of all time, the VT series, made from 1997 to 2000.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/holden...ws-since-1948/

News said: “The VT was the biggest selling Commodore model of all time, with a staggering 303,895 built over almost three years. However, that’s still not as high as the HQ Kingswood (485,650) in the 1970s.”

https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...73e59e92554186

Carsguide offered this opinion as to why the VT was so successful: “ It also helped that the Falcon of the day was regarded as ugly, prompting buyers to flock to the Commodore in droves.”

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...he-years-35814

[prktkljokr]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I believe that the VE Commodores surpassed the HQs build total. I don't have exact figures, but around 350,000 were sold in Australia with another 170,000 exported. That's approximately 520,000 in total.

Dr Terry

I didn't include the Commodore as its origins were European, but yes they made a lot of VE's

I think most Holden figures are what were sold in Australia, they sold knock down kits to South Africa too

[portokatsiki]

Yesterday I went for a drive from Melbourne to Echuca and back. I saw no less than 8 AU falcons/fairmonts in aii body variants. I only saw 1 vy commodore. AUs have certainly outlasted by miles the same era commodores.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by portokatsiki

Yesterday I went for a drive from Melbourne to Echuca and back. I saw no less than 8 AU falcons/fairmonts in aii body variants. I only saw 1 vy commodore. AUs have certainly outlasted by miles the same era commodores.

A year ago I drove out to Narrabri to go to Mt Kaputar and the number of Falcons in the country outnumbered Commodores like 4 to 1.

And the Falcons were in good condition, a lot of FG series I saw.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by prktkljokr

They actually made 467,558 HQ's, it was the best selling model Holden ever made, the next closest was the EH with 256,959, I still see a fair few good HQ's around

There's still a good supply of HQ utes and tonners (occasional wagon, Monaro's and Statesman) getting around but not so much of the Belmont/Kingswood sedan variety.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by prktkljokr

I didn't include the Commodore as its origins were European, but yes they made a lot of VE's

I think most Holden figures are what were sold in Australia, they sold knock down kits to South Africa too

Not so !

While Earlier Commodores were European based to varying degrees, by the time you get to VE, the body/chassis is 100% Aussie designed & built. The drivetrains are mostly US units. I doubt that you would find anything Euro in a VE or VF.

Much like the Falcon, early ones were very US-based Then less so by XA & even less so by XF. EA onwards doesn't have much US left in in them. AU onwards nothing left.

Also all Holden build figures include all overseas built units, because they were CKD packs. The packs were made here then exported & they knew the exact numbers.

Dr Terry

[Citroënbender]

I thought big end bearings on the Falcon sixes remained a constant?

As to the VE, weren’t the locks (Huf) a German company?