What power does a V8 Supercar make on a chassis dyno

[stevefreestyle]

Originally Posted by Spammy

Somebody has to enforce the laws of physics.

Thanks Spammy, as a former Mech Eng myself, I got a smile out of that !

[Luke G]

Would like to drive one someday.

[mik]

Friction plays a big part, I can remember reading a mag article many years ago, ford had a little experimental 1.3 escort that they had tinkered with to get 105 miles per gallon out of it, they removed a couple of the main bearings from the crank, i think they might have removed one of the piston rings off each piston iirc and machined tyres down to 1 inch of tread and many other extraordinary things to get such economy,
no doubt lubricants in the race cars would play a big part too.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by mik

Friction plays a big part, I can remember reading a mag article many years ago, ford had a little experimental 1.3 escort that they had tinkered with to get 105 miles per gallon out of it, they removed a couple of the main bearings from the crank, i think they might have removed one of the piston rings off each piston iirc and machined tyres down to 1 inch of tread and many other extraordinary things to get such economy,
no doubt lubricants in the race cars would play a big part too.

manual gearbox and diffs were filled with ATF for the 1/4 mile.

[sbutler]

Originally Posted by Spammy

Somebody has to enforce the laws of physics.

So when did you become the physics police?

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by burnz

manual gearbox and diffs were filled with ATF for the 1/4 mile.

I used to race Formula Vee and we ran ATF in the vw transaxles to reduce loss. Some guys ran vasoline or vicks in the front bearings rather than grease.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

If the rule is 20% for RWD cars, what about for FWD cars as they are more efficient at getting their power to the wheels?

yep...12-15%

Also why most manufacturers making fuel efficient cars settle on a FWD platform.

(not to simply kill the joy of drifting as some would think)

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Old 595hp engine showed 500 even at the wheels years ago when dropped in the car... 95 hp loss and of that probably likely only 20-30 in the trans most of it in the 9" for all the reasons Madmelon listed above (tooth contact in that style of diff)

Daniel

Happy Dyno.

Alan.

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

Happy Dyno.

Alan.

Are you going to back that up with something? That's a 16% loss and not at all an unreasonable number.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

Happy Dyno.

Alan.

Sure mate, you would know.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

Happy Dyno.

Alan.

Larry perkins VP commo made 480 at the bags in third gear, couldn't test in fourth/fifth as the dyno speed limit was maxed out.

[CAT600]

Engine we tested was a Enduro spec for Bathurst 1999. At the time the JSR sprint engines we had were making 620hp (supposedly) and the Enduro's 590-595. I thought 500 at the bags seemed low for what was close to 70K of engine at the time but the Hollinger and 9" was notoriously hard on loss back then.

E85 current engines would be close to 700 crank hp by now, maybe more so to see 600-620 at the tyres now would not surprise me

Daniel

[zilo]

As long as we don't think that the cars driven by us mere mortals

will perform with these minimal drivetrain losses like these supercars

then all will be good with the world.

[CAT600]

Actually I believe that a late model road going car loses less than a V8SC through the driveline.... a 600hp NA V8 in a road car with a manual trans and IRS would only lose around 80hp or so IMO.

We proved the other day removing a factory M86 and refitting with a 9" showed about 20hp extra loss, this was in a 540rwkw PD blown FG Ute

Daniel

[Road Games]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Engine we tested was a Enduro spec for Bathurst 1999. At the time the JSR sprint engines we had were making 620hp (supposedly) and the Enduro's 590-595.

Daniel

Glenn's car did crack 302kph did it not ??

[CAT600]

JSR is John Sidney Racing not GSR (Glenn Seton Racing)

We used JSR in 99/01 then when Briggs bought the team off my old man they switched to Stones engine soon after.... as did the rest of the Ford Teams except DJR

Daniel

[OLDFORDNUT]

i have heard on many occasions that a ford 9" robs 10hp on its own, but i think its more to do with weight than friction, anyone who has ever cruised in their car will have noticed the more mates in car the more you notice power loss and thats true even in a 351v8

[ebxr8240]

Rotating mass limits rwkw . It's just the way dynos work . Go from heavy wheels (same dia spec) to lighter and you gain power..

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Sure mate, you would know.

I thought that was the standard response for any claimed dyno reading on this forum?

[zilo]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Actually I believe that a late model road going car loses less than a V8SC through the driveline.... a 600hp NA V8 in a road car with a manual trans and IRS would only lose around 80hp or so IMO.

We proved the other day removing a factory M86 and refitting with a 9" showed about 20hp extra loss, this was in a 540rwkw PD blown FG Ute

Daniel

Not doubting your results, but the question is the KW at the flywheel Vs the kilowatts at the wheels on a dyno.

How did you measure the kw at the flywheel?

In an auto,you would need torque converter lock to get the benefit from new car technology, something that may not happen under immense load on a dyno.

[Sprint]

Originally Posted by OLDFORDNUT

i have heard on many occasions that a ford 9" robs 10hp on its own, but i think its more to do with weight than friction, anyone who has ever cruised in their car will have noticed the more mates in car the more you notice power loss and thats true even in a 351v8

9" are about the biggest lump of iron to suck the power up ,I have ever seen on a passenger car, great they are but I know many have put them in non v8 hotrods and went urghhh!

One guy had one in a Anglia 4 cylinder , but it would have been reliable lol

I would not doubt your quote.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by zilo

Not doubting your results, but the question is the KW at the flywheel Vs the kilowatts at the wheels on a dyno.

How did you measure the kw at the flywheel?

In an auto,you would need torque converter lock to get the benefit from new car technology, something that may not happen under immense load on a dyno.

Engine power is measured through an engine dyno. Losses for converters and the like are not accounted for here.

[Road Games]

Originally Posted by CAT600

JSR is John Sidney Racing not GSR (Glenn Seton Racing)

We used JSR in 99/01

Daniel

I am aware of that, hence i asked was 302 the top speed from a JSR engine in 1998 as the power would have been substantial at the time ?

John Sidney Racing supplied engines to Glenn Seton Racing for a few seasons...

Sorry if my Top speed = Bulk grunt question confused you ?

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by zilo

Not doubting your results, but the question is the KW at the flywheel Vs the kilowatts at the wheels on a dyno.

How did you measure the kw at the flywheel?

In an auto,you would need torque converter lock to get the benefit from new car technology, something that may not happen under immense load on a dyno.

If you are referring to the V8SC example I gave it was same engine/same tune file in the Autronic at the time

If you are asking about the road car example (which you quoted me on) I never said anything about the drivetrain loss specifically, I was talking explicitly about the two different styles of differentials and the power difference between them

Originally Posted by 9sec Menace

I am aware of that, hence i asked was 302 the top speed from a JSR engine in 1998 as the power would have been substantial at the time ?

John Sidney Racing supplied engines to Glenn Seton Racing for a few seasons...

Sorry if my Top speed = Bulk grunt question confused you ?

No confusing me, not that many people even know who John Sidney is and most are blissfully unaware that Bo Seton built all Glenns engines up to and including some of the '96 season. Following their public split at the end of '95 Bo went on to build Longhursts engines while Glenn ran his Dads and JSR's through the year and while it was the JSR engine that ran the "alleged" 302 (in 1996 not 1998 BTW) it was also that same engine that failed a rocker and lost Glenn the engine, likely the race... meanwhile Bo's engines ran around the clock.

So no confusion, probably you could have asked a clearer question though?

[zilo]

Originally Posted by CAT600

If you are referring to the V8SC example I gave it was same engine/same tune file in the Autronic at the time

If you are asking about the road car example (which you quoted me on) I never said anything about the drivetrain loss specifically, I was talking explicitly about the two different styles of differentials and the power difference between them

Okay, then you are simply posting off topic....

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by zilo

Okay, then you are simply posting off topic....

No smarty, the topic had moved on to "where the power was being lost" ergo discussion on different styles of differentials, tooth contact and the resultant loss of power.

So unless you would like one post answers to every thread that gets opened, dont be a hero and start reading and learning... I guarantee you can pick up 5 things in this thread you never knew before you bothered to click on it and 4 of them were an extension of the topic.

Daniel

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by 9sec Menace

Yeah point taken .. you certainly know more about everything than anyone else on this forum that's obvious...

Actually, I dont post in the Ford Anglia threads, or the political arena, or about electronics.

I stick to what I know.

YOU asked ME a question... if you ask me a messy question you get a messy answer so dont get all snotty nosed about it mate, you've had more starts on here than Phar Lap had races and its easy to see why.

Daniel

[Road Games]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Actually, I dont post in the Ford Anglia threads, or the political arena, or about electronics.

I stick to what I know.

YOU asked ME a question... if you ask me a messy question you get a messy answer so dont get all snotty nosed about it mate, you've had more starts on here than Phar Lap had races and its easy to see why.

Daniel

Cool story bro i thought i paid you a compliment, keep the personal attacks out of the thread thanks...

If you are the superior person in all things mechanical as you come across as then perhaps take the higher moral ground and stop talking down to people as you do ?

Understand ??

Now how about back on topic ???

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by 9sec Menace

Cool story bro i thought i paid you a compliment, keep the personal attacks out of the thread thanks...

If you are the superior person in all things mechanical as you come across as then perhaps take the higher moral ground and stop talking down to people as you do ?

Understand ??

Now how about back on topic ???

What a crock...... pay me a compliment

Yeah point taken .. you certainly know more about everything than anyone else on this forum that's obvious...

Re-read it and either accept what you wrote was being smart or that your ability to put sentiment into words is way off the mark.

Its not about moral ground its about the facts... if they do not align and you take exception then pick a side and deal with the outcome... hence I pick facts and your feelings get hurt, not my issue.

Next time dont be brain-lazy, ask a clear question and you will get the facts AND walk away smiling too

Its like Zilo above... My first post I answer the thread topic EXACTLY as requested and he picks an extension to the topic to get lippy?... why are people like this on a forum if not to discuss and learn?

Daniel

[PepeLePew]

Ok boys you're both pretty. Put it behind and get on with what is a quality topic. Daz if you intended your comment positively I misread it too. Lets put it all down to the perversity of the English language and keep this thread open and moving. Some great info in here.